Mayor says bullied kids just need to grow a pair

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by SF_Giants66, May 28, 2014.

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  1. SF_Giants66

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    It's not that I don't accept that they don't agree, but it is just that I don't tolerate someone who has stupid reasons to disagree. Why does everything have to be the same as it used to be? The reason younger people want change is because the way it used to be didn't work. Maybe America was better in the past if you were a white, heterosexual protestant, but that doesn't mean the country was better as a whole.

    Under your logic, people not tolerating racism would make them as equally as intolerant as the intolerant young liberals you just mentioned. Some things are just not to be tolerated. Homophobia and bigotry are two of those things.
     
  2. swansong1

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    Your stupid reasons to disagree may be someone else's perfectly reasonable reason.

    For someone wanting to promote tolerance, you are pretty intolerant of opposing viewpoints.
     
  3. 3Sons

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    Yes. But do you think there's really no objective view of reasonableness? How do you evaluate whether a kid has violated your behavior for a reasonable reason or an unreasonable one?

    I would suggest that if you've thought about it (and likely you've done this even unconsciously), your interpretation of your own behavior plan is guided by principles that you apply in each factual situation. Do you think that anyone, regardless of what principles they apply, is using reasonableness?

    As someone sort of obliquely but correctly pointed out, tolerance itself is not a universal good. There are behaviors tolerated now that are detrimental to society (assuming you hold, "positive benefit to society" as a principle).

    I would add -- I actively try not to grant viewpoints respect. People deserve respect, ideas deserve to be wrought through a torture chamber of debate, logic, and empiricism.
     
  4. swansong1

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    Interesting idea. Not sure about the torture chamber reference...not all ideas need to be tortuously debated...but an interesting idea anyways.
     
  5. Mamacita

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    Shouldn't the entire school be a safe zone? No dangerous student should be allowed in it. I'm sorry, but no. No bullying, violent, dangerous students, no matter what. No matter what. True, we can't be everywhere, but that which we do see should be dealt with swiftly and drastically and in such a way that might discourage others from trying it. Not backing down. Get them out.
     
  6. Cerek

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    No, SF. I meant exactly what I said (and what a2z clarified); they are tolerant of those who agree with their views and extremely IN-tolerant of any differing views. Read any comments section on any story on the internet. People cannot just disagree on the subject matter, they must resort to the harshest and most demonizing labels they can think of to those who voice a different opinion.

    So, no, I do NOT see a greater level of tolerance from the younger generation. If anything, I see even more LACK of tolerance for those who have a view different from their own.
     
  7. Peregrin5

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    This exactly. One group wants to promote tolerance of people. Another wants to promote tolerance of their ideas. The first group has the stronger case. We should always be more worried about respecting people over respecting ideas or viewpoints.
     
  8. gr3teacher

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    I try to be tolerant of different views. I do my best to understand why people believe what they believe. But I'm proudly "intolerant" of racists, I'm "intolerant" of people that think women are inferior, and I'm "intolerant" of people that want homosexuals to have second-class citizen status in the United States. If that makes me more intolerant than the previous generation, then so be it.
     
  9. 2ndTimeAround

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    I see a lot of hypocrisy any time this subject comes up.
     
  10. Peregrin5

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    On the internet, this is true of both sides and both parties. I don't know how you'd mark this as being the fault of "young people". I've seen young and old berate and demonize on both sides of this issue. I myself am young and do my best to treat others with respect.

    As we mentioned before, we do not need to be tolerant of differing views in order to be tolerant of people. We should always be tolerant of people and treat them equally. We don't have to treat all views equally in order to be a tolerant person.

    As for greater or lesser tolerance among a younger generation, I would say we have a greater tolerance for innate differences among people. This much is true. However I think both sides vehemently support their position and opinions above others.
     
  11. Peregrin5

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    How so?
     
  12. Peregrin5

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    And this is my stance on the matter as well, except I wouldn't say I'm intolerant of them. I simply disagree with them and would work against their views.

    I like the Aristotle quote, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    This is something I do, but I see people on both sides who have problems with doing this. SF is one of them I think.
     
  13. ScienceEd

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    having worked at an alternative school, that would be expelling the whole student population at one point or another.....there is a different degree and different consequences depending on age, etc.
     
  14. SF_Giants66

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    It seems as when the religious card is played, those views deserve respect for some reason.

    You think that homosexuality is immoral so that opinion deserves respect.

    Others believe that Christians should be sterilized or put in jail, and that opinion deserves respect. You can still respect their belief even if you don't agree with it. Why are you so intolerant?
     
  15. catnfiddle

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    This discussion has veered far from the original discussion regarding a terrible statement from a politician regarding bullied students.
     
  16. kinderkids

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    I am really tired of intolerance for intolerance. Can't we just all agree to disagree. Jeez people....get over yourselves and stop being so critical on those who disagree. It comes across more as hatred...and vile when those who oppose what YOU BELIEVE get a talking to as though what you believe is always what EVERYONE should believe. This still is America where individual thoughts,cultures, and beliefs were what made this country a melting pot.
    Perhaps this is what this post meant:
    Originally Posted by 2ndTimeAround
    "I see a lot of hypocrisy any time this subject comes up." I agree with this.
     
  17. gr3teacher

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    If somebody came up to you and said that kindergarten teachers deserved to go to hell just for being kindergarten teachers, would you be able to just agree to disagree? I find it difficult to believe you would, and I find it more difficult to believe anybody would blame you if you decided to "intolerate the intolerance."
     
  18. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    If somebody came up to me and said that I really wouldn't care. I am not thin skinned and would actually just laugh it off. I wouldn't go off the deep end over it. They have a right to their opinion...and that's what it is really about. Whether you find it difficult to believe doesn't factor into it at all. How can YOU decide as to what I believe? You have no idea if "hell" even is something I acknowledge or if I do would get INFLAMED over in such a statement. Yet, you assume I decide to "intolerate the intolerance" your statement of burning in hell strictly based on YOUR presumption of the beliefs that I may or may not hold. You don't know anything about me. That's the issue. Everyone seems to think they know what everyone believes and how they would react based on their religion,sex, gender etc. That's a mighty slippery slope...deciding what others believe and making blanket statements, generalizations, etc. based on (fill in the blank). And at the end of the day if we still disagree, I will do so respectfully, without bias, and hope others do as well.
     
  19. gr3teacher

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    And if millions of people expressed that view, and held it seriously and profoundly?
     
  20. kinderkids

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    I appreciate your questions, but I am not going to engage anymore. I said my piece and I'm out. My answer to that question is still the same. I am sure I'll be dissected for my "opinion" but so be it. Glad I live in a country where dissent is still allowed and "tolerated".
     
  21. SF_Giants66

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    Not really. It is just discussing bullying of a different aspect, and what causes it. Such as intolerance cloaked by their religion.
     
  22. ScienceEd

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    that is like comparing apples and oranges.

    if someone said that homosexuals should be sterilized or put in jail, I would strongly object.

    However if someone said that Christians are immoral, I would allow that its their opinion and they have a right to that opinion.

    the difference between the two statement is that one is just an opinion, the other is instigating people to ACT violently and unjustly upon their opinion. which is wrong, immoral and unjust.

    just as someone can have an opinion that does not agree with another person but that does not give them the right to bully or force their opinions on other people.

    SF_Giant, you may not realize it but you have the makings of becoming a bully or crying "victim"

    you don't listen to what is being said or admit when you are mistaken or wrong.

    you are not being logical and use underhanded debating tactics to sway people to your "side" instead of objectively looking at what is being presented.

    your hostility towards anyone you perceive as disagreeing with you is evident.

    do you really want to find a solution to bullying or do you want an audience to hear about your personal bullying testimony and life struggles?

    Either motive is valid. I'm just curious, because to be an effective teacher we have to move past our childhood traumas and learn to mentor our students to learn to work together despite their difference in opinion.

    I believe its unreasonable and a waste of time to try and make people believe that homosexuality is morally okay.

    I believe a more reasonable goal is to have people accept the person who identifies themselves as homosexual to be someone worth knowing, working with and learning from. that homosexuality does not define the person and that people can disagree on certain topics but still be friends, coworkers, team mates, etc.

    the importance is to teach people to work with other people, not promote our own opinions and ideas as "right and moral"
     
  23. SF_Giants66

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    That isn't the point though. They didn't say that respect for beliefs had a limit.

    Disrespect for homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle is bigotry and as bad as racism. We don't respect racism anymore as a society, so respecting homophobia shouldn't be different just because it says it in the Bible.
     
  24. gr3teacher

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    Part of the problem too is it isn't just an acceptance issue. It's a legal issue. Most states still refuse to allow legal gay marriage (a separate issue from religion). Many states allow gay people to be fired or actively discriminated against. Some states will still arrest homosexuals for being homosexuals because they haven't formally repealed their anti-sodomy laws. Luckily for the last one, they can't actually go forward with charges anymore...

    There's a big difference between "I don't agree with homosexuality, but I agree they should have the same basic legal protections as everyone else" and "homosexuals deserve to be discriminated against." Same with race, same with gender, etc.

    I have no issue talking with the first type of person, but I have no patience for the second. Sorry.
     
  25. ScienceEd

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    would you be tolerant of arranged marriages?

    mail order brides?

    would your disagreeing with someone's marriage because you don't think they are in love cause you to bully them into not being together?
     
  26. ScienceEd

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    ??? never heard of that... will have to do some research......

    people should be hired or fired because they do their jobs well or don't do their jobs well. religion, sexuality, etc should not factor in.

    the second, ... who can you say they will arrest but don't enforce in the same breathe?

    which is it? have you reported cases of people being arrested for being homosexuals?

    can you post links to news articles? arrest records are public domain aren't they?
     
  27. gr3teacher

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  28. gr3teacher

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    And by unenforceable I mean charging. Police are free to arrest, it just can't actually lead to a conviction without being appealed under Lawrence v Texas.
     
  29. ScienceEd

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    its something to think about.

    some countries think that monogamy is abnormal and it is legal for men to have more than one spouse.

    other countries allow child brides.

    we allow affairs and adultery to go basically unchecked legally, though there is some alienation of affection laws....

    the issue of marriage laws is complicated.

    however, i still stand by the fact that bullying should not be allowed and the best way to stop bullying in schools is to teach people to accept others who may not share their views and opinions and teach them to work together. Instead of trying to change their views or opinions (which will lead to more bullying or rebellion) focus instead on common projects and goals towards learning and working together. Focus on the common ground instead of the differences.

    Example: how to preserve the world environment so that future generations can enjoy its beauty and richness.
     
  30. ScienceEd

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    i'm researching but have yet to find a case where the charge is because the guilty party was homosexual... i have found one where a man raped a woman and got the charge dropped from simple rape to crimes against nature but that is it....

    Crime Against Nature



    La R.S. 14:89 Crime against nature



    A. Crime against nature is:



    The unnatural carnal copulation by a human being with another of the same sex or opposite sex or with an animal, except that anal sexual intercourse between two human beings shall not be deemed as a crime against nature when done under any of the circumstances described in R.S. 14:41, 14:42, 14:42.1 or 14:43. Emission is not necessary; and, when committed by a human being with another, the use of the genital organ of one of the offenders of whatever sex is sufficient to constitute the crime.

    The solicitation by a human being of another with the intent to engage in any unnatural carnal copulation for compensation.



    B. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than two thousand dollars, or imprisoned, with or without hard labor, for not more than five years, or both.



    La R.S. 14:89.1 Aggravated crime against nature



    A. Aggravated crime against nature is crime against nature committed under any one or more of the following circumstances:



    When the victim resists the act to the utmost, but such resistance is overcome by force;

    When the victim is prevented from resisting the act by threats of great and immediate bodily harm accompanied by apparent power of execution;

    When the victim is prevented from resisting the act because the offender is armed with a dangerous weapon; or

    When through idiocy, imbecility, or any unsoundness of mind, either temporary or permanent, the victim is incapable of giving consent and the offender knew or should have known of such incapacity;

    When the victim is incapable of resisting or of understanding the nature of the act, by reason of stupor or abnormal condition of mind produced by a narcotic or anesthetic agent, administered by or with the privity of the offender; or when he has such incapacity, by reason of a stupor or abnormal condition of mind from any cause, and the offender knew or should have known of such incapacity; or

    When the victim is under the age of seventeen years and the offender is at least three years older than the victim.



    B. Whoever commits the crime of aggravated crime against nature shall be imprisoned at hard labor for not less than three nor more than fifteen years, such prison sentence to bewithout benefit of suspension of sentence, probation or parole.

    http://www.brstar.org/#!louisiana-sex-crime-statutes/c1np0


    ********personally i think the aggravated crimes against nature statue should stay on the books***
     
  31. Cerek

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    Unless I also believed in the existence of hell, it would make no difference what "they" thought. Since I'm a Christian, that means that millions of Muslims and those of other faiths DO believe my soul is either condemned, lost or doomed to some form of purgatory.

    That doesn't bother me because I don't believe it's true. But it also does not make me upset or even "intolerant" of those who DO seriously and profoundly believe it to be true.

    I think they are wrong, but I still respect THEIR religious beliefs as much as my own because I would like them to show that same respect for mine.

    And that is the key that so many people today don't seem to grasp; they insist others conform to (or at least agree with) their views rather than just showing the same respect for other views they would like to receive themselves.
     
  32. SF_Giants66

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    Sexual orientation is still not considered a protected class in many places. For that reason, employment at will being terminated because someone is gay won't make it into the court system. Even if it is an at will employment, if I were to say I was firing someone because they were pregnant, because they were black, or another reason, I could be taken to court.

    Also, legal issues about this are religious based. At town hall meetings every time this goes to the public, there are many religious nuts coming in talking about homosexuality being sinful and business owners should be allowed to practice religion in their business by refusing to hire them.

    If homosexuality didn't go against people's religious beliefs, then why would it constantly be struck down from becoming a legal marriage practice or from becoming protected against discrimination? We are supposed to be free from religion.
     
  33. ScienceEd

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    even if it was a protected class people would just give a different reason for termination.

    maybe i'm extreme but I personally think students shouldn't be having sex at all until they graduate high school and have jobs to support those babies they could potentially be making.

    i'm against the whole having sex for fun mentality that is accepted by modern society.


    therefore the concept of bullying because of sexual orientation, promiscuity, sexting, etc is disturbing.

    it takes away from what I believe the focus of school should be: learning and preparing them to enter the work force as valued members of society.
     
  34. Peregrin5

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    http://theadvocate.com/news/police/6580728-123/gays-in-baton-rouge-arrested

    Here is one where the police pretended to be gay men to trick gay men into inviting them home and arresting them under the sodomy laws in Louisiana. Happened last year.
     
  35. Peregrin5

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    It's not extreme. It's just idealistic and not rooted in reality. But I agree with your notions in this case.
     
  36. SF_Giants66

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    Fortunately, the supreme court struck down laws against sodomy.
     
  37. Peregrin5

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    If passing laws restricting the rights of others who don't conform to your beliefs isn't forcing others to conform to them then I don't know what is.

    But I agree that there are many people on BOTH sides of the spectrum who are far too militant in their defense, and honestly they do more harm than good for their respective causes.
     
  38. ScienceEd

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    if this was a formal debate or research paper i would use a different source because that one could be argued to be biased.

    for example, i would suggest my students cite this one:

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/04/22/louisiana-repeal-crime-against-nature-laws

    because the human rights watch organization has a name of being a watch dog for other global human rights violations such as child sweat shops, etc.
     
  39. Peregrin5

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    True. I posted this for the sake of expediency. I remembered the gist of the story but had a hard time re-looking it up.
     
  40. ScienceEd

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    i did find these points interesting "District Attorney Hillar Moore III said his office refused to prosecute each one of the cases because his assistants found no crime had occurred. "

    also "A man arrested in the late 1990s was acquitted at trial as jurors puzzled over whether the undercover deputy or suspect initiated the sexual discussion. “I saw it as entrapment,” the jury foreman said at the time."

    entrapment is illegal by the way and the police officers could have been charged with that crime........

    i believe in this case the police officers and sheriff messed up and should be taken to task for their bullying tactics.

    however, i would point out that the DA stopped it from escalating because he clearly said it was NOT a crime to be homosexual.
     
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