Massachusetts Law Professor Calls Care Packages for U.S. Troops 'Shameful'

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by Irishdave, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    12

    Nov 14, 2011

  2.  
  3. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,395
    Likes Received:
    7

    Nov 14, 2011

    Bah. I get the feeling this man thinks a lot of things that are near and dear to my heart are "shameful".

    But this statement made me chuckle: "Clearly it's a patriotic school; we have a huge American flag up in the atrium."
     
  4. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    He was way harsh, but I do understand where he's coming from. I don't support the troops or the military, and it gets very aggravating when you are constantly being hit up to support them. Care packages, donations, etc. I think it's a nice idea for those who want to be supportive and help out, but some people just don't.

    But I think he does have a point. It may or may not be "shameful" but it is odd to support something that involves killing.
     
  5. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    Well obviously American flags= patriotism. :rolleyes:
     
  6. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,018
    Likes Received:
    178

    Nov 14, 2011

    He's a fool. Entitled to his own opinion, but he shouldn't pretend that he thinks it's shameful because of academia. He clearly thinks supporting them is shameful anywhere, at any time. And he's completely blind to the realities they face.
     
  7. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    27,534
    Likes Received:
    6

    Nov 14, 2011

    I don't think kindness is ever shameful.

    And, regardless of what you think about the cause for which they're fighting, it's kind to remember those doing a tough job far from home.

    Thankfully, I don't need his opinons to set my moral compass.

    He's trying for his 15 minutes of fame, and apparently doesn't dance well enough for reality TV.
     
  8. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Nov 14, 2011

    I can accept his opinion. Many people are opposed to killing other humans no matter the reason.

    I know many feel he should find another, more suitable country in which to live, but I don't believe he should be "expected" to do so. I say this only because that is many people's first reaction: move! He was, I assume, born in this country. Your birth in a country shouldn't obligate you to support that country's decisions. But it's nice when people do. :)

    The article said we learned from Vietnam you can support the troops without supporting the war, but I don't think everyone can in a non-draft war as current soldiers volunteered to fight and kill (and be killed).
     
  9. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,441
    Likes Received:
    131

    Nov 14, 2011

    File under "Abuse of academic freedom by university faculty."
     
  10. Major

    Major Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,620
    Likes Received:
    5

    Nov 14, 2011

    This is definitely a thread in which I should not participate ….. I know that … I know that …. I know that ... but anyway here goes…..

    I do support every branch of our military. I do send care packages, random articles and personal letters to those who serve our country ….. and I’m proud to do so. I’m honored to be associated with members of our military …. both active and veterans.

    I do believe our military protects the USA and the rights we have. It even protects people like Avery.

    And some thoughts about Avery ...... I wouldn’t want Michael Avery to be a member of my Squad, my Platoon, my Company, my Battalion, etc. I wouldn’t want Michael Avery to be a neighbor…. or even a citizen in my town. I could say more ..... but wont.

    :2cents::2cents:
     
  11. shouldbeasleep

    shouldbeasleep Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,233
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    What an a$$. I like your comment, Alice. That's exactly what he's doing. Either that, or he's an inarticulate pompous sanctimonious fool. (Hah! I can find better words to use than he did!)

    What he should have said was that he believes the war is shameful.

    But then, that wouldn't have gotten any attention.
     
  12. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Nov 14, 2011

    But I don't think that is what he means, that war is shameful. He believes that war is shameful, that people volunteering to kill in war is shameful, and that supporting war and those involved is shameful. I know many people are opposed to war but show support to those who fight, but there are also those who are opposed to war and therefore opposed to anyone who participates.
     
  13. 1st-yr-teacher

    1st-yr-teacher Comrade

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    :yeahthat:
     
  14. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    This is actually something I have struggled with. Like you, I know people who don't agree with the war, are disgusted by it, but still claim that they stand behind the troops and support them, despite their involvement.

    For myself, I find it hard to do so. I can't see disagreeing with military and what it does but then turning around and supporting the people involved in it because it's the "right and nice" thing to do.

    I just can't force myself to be okay with it... so I don't. It's a tough spot to be in. Especially when I know certain people who have some kind of involvement with the military.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  15. FarFromHome

    FarFromHome Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,857
    Likes Received:
    2

    Nov 14, 2011

    My husband is currently deployed, and I don't think I should have clicked on this topic. In case some people don't know, not everyone who is overseas is killing people.
     
  16. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Nov 14, 2011

    Yes, but I think one who opposes the very idea of war will not care to separate individually those who do kill and who don't, and I imagine they wouldn't care being as they are all pieces of a machine that ultimately kills others for power and control (and our freedoms and safety, of course...I'm just representing another viewpoint).
     
  17. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    Most young men and women that join the military do NOT join so they can go kill people. I think very few, rational people in the U.S. look at military service as a chance to go kill some foreigners (that view may be somewhat different in other countries involved in long-lasting conflicts with historical enemies).

    MOST young men and women in America view military service either as one of the most viable job opportunities available to them or a chance to travel and see the world. Yes, we are still involved in an unpopular occupation of another country, but that is nearing it's end. There were plenty of men and women volunteering for the armed forces during times of no conflict, because the military has traditionally provided good training for job skills that can be used in civilian life and government supported loans and grants for continuing their education when their service is done. For many young Americans with struggling families, military service may be the ONLY way for them to pay for a college education.

    Those who cannot recognize other aspects of military service besides "killing people" simply show a lack of understanding of what military service is truly about. It isn't about going out and finding people to kill, it is about protecting our nation and helping keep or restore peace in other nations when asked. Killing other people is something the job might require....or it might not, depending on the service chosen and the job assigned or chosen within the military unit.

    Law enforcement is another job that might require the officer to "kill people", but I don't think anyone here would say the men and women joining the police force are just looking for people to kill. Instead, they take a job protecting other people and the duties of that job might require them to kill another person in the line of duty. It is no different with military service.....they choose to help protect our country from all threats, both foreign and domestic and extend that same protection to other countries when required or requested.
     
  18. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Nov 14, 2011

    I didn't think anyone implied soldiers joined LOOKING to kill.
     
  19. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    That's a truly scary thought. The military is so much more than just a way to finance a college education or travel. It's a huge commitment and it can be life changing. It worries me that young adults are signing up because of the benefits alone without fully realizing or understanding what enlisting means.

    It's a bit like entering a certain job or field strictly because of the money and benefits, not because you actually enjoy it.

    I understand that aspects of the military, mostly financial, can be enticing, but it is still a very serious commitment. Not just "a way to afford college".
     
  20. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Nov 14, 2011

    My little sister joined for adventure and tuition. I talked to her several times about her decision and she never once cited a desire to serve or protect, but I guess that was a given? Oh, and boys...boys were mentioned as well. :) So I understand that it's a little concerning if "most" are joining to travel...but is that even accurate? I would worry about their long-term happiness.
     
  21. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    I guess it would be like me saying, "I'm going to be a kindergarten teacher so I can have summers off and make noodle art and play with the kiddos! Oh, and all the cute male teachers." Of course, maybe someone would say, "Yes Speechy, but do you have a passion for teaching and wish to work with small children?" That has to be factored in... at some point.

    I mean, I have known several people from high school who went to into the military because they couldn't afford college or didn't know what they wanted to do. They were reeled in with the idea of travel and a salary, benefits, etc. Then after basic, they figured out they didn't like it but were stuck because they had committed to it. Had they given it some thought and did more research, talked to other people (besides the recruiters) they might have figured out earlier that although the perks are decent, the risks are quite more serious.

    This has nothing to do with being pro-military or anti-military. It's just making a committment based on financial reasons without fulling understanding the job. It is scary.

    Edit: I'm sure that's obviously not why everyone joins. But every time I hear about someone joining the military, or if anyone suggest someone to do so, is because of the opportunity of paid tuition.
     
  22. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 14, 2011

    I said that most young Americans who sign up for military service view it as one of the few viable job options available to them and that, for some, it is the ONLY way they could afford to go to college later on.

    I think most men and women signing up for the military DO understand the commitment involved. They are promising 4 years (at least) of their life to a job. In return, they will receive physical and functional training that not only serves them well in the military, but will also serve them very well in civilian life as well. They have the opportunity to learn job skills in a variety of fields and come out of the military with a functioning knowledge and years of job experience applying those skills.

    College is a big commitment as well, or at least it should be. It also requires at least 4 years of the students life. However, while many students may learn valuable lessons and theories in college, very few are going to come out of college with 4 years of practical experience and on-the-job application of the skills needed for their chosen career. Even fewer college grads are going to come out of college with the discipline and work ethic instilled by service in the military.

    I've seen first-hand how big a change military service can make in a person's maturity, discipline and commitment to completing any task given to them.

    Sure, there are a lot of kids that only look at the benefits or "exciting aspects" of military service - or any job for that matter. But the difference I've seen for myself is this; many people go into military service as "kids", but they come out as matured adults. Many "kids" also go to college, but are just older "kids" when they come out. They haven't developed the maturity and discipline that military service gives.
     
  23. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 15, 2011

    Don't agree here. Yes, college is a place that is focused on academics, but just because it's not as "hands on" that doesn't mean it doesn't teach you to be focused or self-discipline.

    In the military, from day one, you have someone standing over you, ordering you around and telling you what to do to a certain extent. I respect that in some way, that builds character. In college, I had no one standing over me, telling me to go to class, make my bed, do my assignments, etc. For a lot of college students, it will make you or break you. You have to discipline yourself or you will not succeed. You learn that things do not come by osmosis. Sometimes you have no guide, you have to train yourself.

    Are there kids in college who are wasting away or failing due to lack of self discipline? Yes. Are there some who have no direction or are just spending mommy and daddy's money? Absolutely. But I'm sure the same can be said for certain individuals who have entered the military. All college students don't leave college as adults, and not all soldiers leave the military adults either.
     
  24. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 15, 2011

    My experience has been different. I've seen a marked increase in maturity (especially) among those that have gone through military service as opposed to college.

    However, my original point was to show there is a lot more motivation for military service among our men and women besides "killing people".
     
  25. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 15, 2011

    As for Professor Avery, he does have the right to hold and express his opinion - thanks to those military people who fought and died to provide those rights in this country.

    Of course, others have an equal right to call him the ignorant fool that he is.

    I agree with shouldbeasleep and Alice, he is a pompous, sactimonious ass that wants his 15 minutes of fame but can't dance well enough for reality TV. Then again, he has a good shot at making it on TRU TV's "World's Dumbest" series. :rolleyes:
     
  26. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,956
    Likes Received:
    2,108

    Nov 15, 2011

    You are more than entitled to your opinion, although I think you are terribly off mark....but isn't it comforting that despite your lack of support for them, the military does support you in many ways.
    You clearly have no idea of what the military is about. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that you know anything about what it's like 'from day one' or any other day in a service member's life. :wow:
     
  27. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,441
    Likes Received:
    131

    Nov 15, 2011

    The reasons a person goes into the military are very complicated. Actually, they are far too complicated for most civilians who have not experienced it to wrap their heads around.

    I enlisted in the Air Force out of high school. I was actually still in high school when I signed up. I was a very bright C student who saw it as the only alternative to living at home and going to a junior college or working at McDonalds. I'm pretty sure that my reason for joining was, and is, the most common. A college education was furthest from my mind back then. So was patriotism and the notion of "serving my country."

    To be honest, all of my superiors - my recruiter, drill sergeant, and the commissioned and non-comissioned officers in my squadron - probably showed me more respect than any of my high school teachers ever did. To this day, I often think there was more mutual respect going on between the officers and airmen in my squadron than there is between admins and teachers at most public schools.

    From day one in basic training, you are taught to think for yourself and make decisions. Sure, in the military you need to follow orders. But you can't carry out those orders unless you can think for yourself.
     
  28. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,395
    Likes Received:
    7

    Nov 15, 2011

    Didn't we just have this pro/anti military discussion when we were discussing recruiting on campuses?
     
  29. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,018
    Likes Received:
    178

    Nov 15, 2011

    I think the only one implying that the purpose in joining the military is to kill is the professor. There is a rule of thumb in law that to cite specifics means other things not mentioned are excluded (which is why, if you notice on a lot of contracts, they'll specifically include a phrase indicating other possibilities are NOT excluded).

    I don't think he's really out for fifteen minutes of fame, though. He sent a reply to an email, but I don't think he expected it to make the news. And a law professor trying for fame could likely pick a better means -- a better phrase that wouldn't be discounted immediately. I think he just blurted something out in a fit of pique. If he doesn't publish an official response, I'd go so far as to say he definitely was not seeking fame.
     
  30. bonneb

    bonneb Fanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    9

    Nov 15, 2011

    Our universities are crawling with professors with just this mindset. THAT is what is really scary.
     
  31. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0

    Nov 15, 2011

    I won't lie and pretend like I support the military. I just won't. However, I don't run around ranting and raving, throwing sticks at soldiers that pass and making my disapproval obvious. I'm respectful toward the individuals, just not what they do. No, it's not comforting at all, because I don't believe they are doing anything for me. Not that it matters, since it is not all about me. It is much bigger than that. I just go on my merry way and they do too.

    I wasn't pretending to know what life is like in the military. I have never served, nor will I ever, so I obviously have no first hand experience. However, I have had a few close friends and others around me who served. One I talked to just about every day, and got letters from. Regarding their experiences, I am pretty accurate. As for the whole, you're right, I don't know. I don't know every single soldier or know their first hand experience.

    But I don't believe it is too rash of an assumption to say that the military is a huge commitment and a serious job.

    And I do have an idea of what I'm talking about, though, your concern is appreciated. :thumb:
     
  32. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,927
    Likes Received:
    158

    Nov 15, 2011

    I have heard many of those provocative radio talkers say the same
    thing. I don't believe it for a minute.
    As for me I have the utmost respect for the sacrifice
    it takes to serve in the military. I met many WW2 vets at various
    reunions and am amazed at their stories.
    What I deplore is how politicians use our military as pawns
    in their geopolitical games. Going into a society that is stuck in
    the 8th century to bring democracy at the point of a gun
    (and costing HUGE amounts of $$$$ we do not have) is the height
    of stupidity. We need more like JFK that used his brain in dealing with
    aggression instead of calling in the marines whenever we "think" the bad guys are gonna get us.
     
  33. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    12

    Nov 15, 2011


    Having a military force is one of the necessary evils* we have in todays world.
    It would be nice if we could get in a circle with our enemies and sing Kumbaya and everything would be alright!

    "I'm respectful toward the individuals, just not what they do." I think it can be echoed by almost everyone.

    Hands down War sucks BUT the men and women of our military need our "social" support.
    Conscientious Objection has been a long supported Presbyterian belief. I had a debate with myself over this during the Vietnam war,
    I was going to go in as a non-combative but my deferment changed to a medical deferment, They didn't want someone with ruptured ear drums.



    *something that is objectively wrong morally, but in subjective circumstances must be done for the greater good.
     
  34. bonneb

    bonneb Fanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,518
    Likes Received:
    9

    Nov 19, 2011

    stephenpe - I and my colleagues have experienced this first hand. Professors who are hired to teach subject matter, but use their authority and position to lecture on their political beliefs instead. And I have only experienced it or heard of it from the liberal side. It is glaring! I have experienced this at more than one university, in different states, public and private universities.
     
  35. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,956
    Likes Received:
    2,108

    Nov 19, 2011

    Have any of you had the cojones to stand up to politically pontificating professors? I have. I'm not going to pay good $$ to be held captive to that nonsense.
     
  36. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    27,534
    Likes Received:
    6

    Nov 19, 2011

    :lol::lol:

    Actually, I never had one.
     
  37. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,956
    Likes Received:
    2,108

    Nov 19, 2011

    I've only encountered one. Post masters degree. I made it very clear that her opinions regarding presidents, abortion and a variety of other topics had NOTHING to do with the course syllabus. I got an A in the class. And I communicated my concerns in the class evaluation we filled out at the last class.
     
  38. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    27,534
    Likes Received:
    6

    Nov 19, 2011

    I'm sorry, but the "cojones" made me laugh out loud.
     
  39. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,956
    Likes Received:
    2,108

    Nov 19, 2011

    I'm not sure anyone outside the NYC metro area will get it...:whistle:
     
  40. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    27,534
    Likes Received:
    6

    Nov 19, 2011

    ...or know how to pronounce it.
     
  41. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,930
    Likes Received:
    1,752

    Nov 19, 2011

    I may not pronounce it right, but I do understand it! :lol:
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. CaliforniaRPCV
Total: 312 (members: 2, guests: 287, robots: 23)
test