Love and Logic
- Thread starter divey
- Start date
6thgradeteacher
Rookie
I love Jim Faye!!! Big advocate. I like his technique of not letting children argue with you. Just giving them natural consequences for their actions. Saying things like, "I am so sorry you forgot your paper today, but while you're sitting out from recess, you could write yourself a reminder so it won't happen again."
6thgradeteacher
Rookie
I just use certain techniques. I also suggest his book to parents...Parenting with Love and Logic.
runsw/scissors
Phenom
I love this techinque. It is a constant learning process (for me) so I suggest you start small. Choose one or two things to do and work on them until you can practically do them in your sleep. For me that was giving choices I think. Then I added the empathetic response ("I'm sorry to hear that" and "Well, that's a bummer.") I also post his "How I run my classroom" poster and go over it with the kids. I also teach them during the first week how to disagree with a decision appropriately. "Miss x, I'm not sure that is quite fair." or "Miss x, may I explain how I see things now?" rather than whining.
I am constantly working on some skills, so don't get down on yourself if you don't perfect it all in a few months or even years. I have been with this for 6 years now. Keep in mind it does not replace your school's discipline cycle unless the whole school adopts it. It does give you tools for day-to-day management though.
I am constantly working on some skills, so don't get down on yourself if you don't perfect it all in a few months or even years. I have been with this for 6 years now. Keep in mind it does not replace your school's discipline cycle unless the whole school adopts it. It does give you tools for day-to-day management though.
6thgradeteacher
Rookie
I agree. Start with a few things you would feel comfortable doing, then add one or two. That's the good thing about his program is you don't have to do it all or nothing. You can take bits and pieces. I agree with the previous post though....I started with choices, then went with the empathetic response.
runsw/scissors
Phenom
I never post specific consequences unless the school policy dictates them (staying after school to finish late work for example). I have found it is much more effective to warn them off with a statement like "What do you think might happen if you continue making the same choice?" or "Are you really making the best possible decision right now?"
If I get a little smarty pants who says "What will happen if i don't stop?" my standard answer is "Keep it up so we all can find out. You can be the class's test run." They generally quit.
If I get a little smarty pants who says "What will happen if i don't stop?" my standard answer is "Keep it up so we all can find out. You can be the class's test run." They generally quit.
divey
Companion
okay..that got me tickled! 
So....(next question) how do you keep your empathetic responses from sounding like sarcasm? i have been trying out different responses to situations that happened in my classroom last year, and every time it comes out of my mouth it sounds like it's dripping with sarcasm!
So....(next question) how do you keep your empathetic responses from sounding like sarcasm? i have been trying out different responses to situations that happened in my classroom last year, and every time it comes out of my mouth it sounds like it's dripping with sarcasm!
T
thecottage
Guest
I am reading it now. I am wondering if it will work for me as a para in a one to one situation. In any case, I do like it.
T
thecottage
Guest
divey said:personally, I think the concepts of Love and Logic can be used in ANY interpersonal relationship. Have been trying to explore ways I can practice on my husband
runsw/scissors
Phenom
divey,
I used Love & Logic once when she was trying to fight with me (we were in our late 20's). She was sooooo furious about something stupid and kept yelling at me and trying to rope me into a good long screaming match. All I would say is (in the calmest and most disinterested voice possible) "I'll be happy to speak with you when your voice sounds like mine." Then when she finally did settle down somewhat she began accusing me of stupid stuff like I was at fault she was in such a temper. And again I was excrutiatingly, maddeningly calm and said over and over "Yes, I can see how you might think that." or "I'm sure it seems that way to you." She finally left in a huff and avoided me the rest of the night! It was great!
As for not sounding sarcastic....you have to play a part is the best I can say. Pretend you're trying out for a stage production and really just ooze feeling (other than frustration or sarcasm). If you sound distracted or upset it can come off wrong. Keep practicing on your hubby!
I used Love & Logic once when she was trying to fight with me (we were in our late 20's). She was sooooo furious about something stupid and kept yelling at me and trying to rope me into a good long screaming match. All I would say is (in the calmest and most disinterested voice possible) "I'll be happy to speak with you when your voice sounds like mine." Then when she finally did settle down somewhat she began accusing me of stupid stuff like I was at fault she was in such a temper. And again I was excrutiatingly, maddeningly calm and said over and over "Yes, I can see how you might think that." or "I'm sure it seems that way to you." She finally left in a huff and avoided me the rest of the night! It was great!
As for not sounding sarcastic....you have to play a part is the best I can say. Pretend you're trying out for a stage production and really just ooze feeling (other than frustration or sarcasm). If you sound distracted or upset it can come off wrong. Keep practicing on your hubby!
divey
Companion
I'll have to try that, runsw/scissors. Sometimes I think arguing is my husband's favorite hobby, so it'll be interesting to see his reaction
I have several ideas running through my head concerning ways to modify my behavior plan this year in a Love and Logic kind of way. Of course, with ideas come LOTS of questions, which is where YOU come in Here is what I have done the past 2 years...(hopefully in a nut shell!):
I have used a variation of the card system. Instead of each child having a set of cards that they flip, I have laminated cards (construction paper) on the board that I write their names on each time a rule if forgotten. At the end of the day, I ask what color each child's name is on, and i document it on a behavior calendar (which, after assigning points/day, this gives me their citizenship grade each week). I like aspects of this system b/c it helps me with 1) citizenship grade and 2) rewards (they earn a star if their name stays on green, and 5 stars earns a treat/good note home/name in the good behavior basket. When everyone's name is in the basket, a class celebration is earned)
Here's what I'm thinking.....
1) instead of having the "cards" on display, have a sheet on a clipboard that would have a box for each child. If a child misbehaves, instead of posting their names, have a conference, write down the rule forgotten, and document consequences discussed and agreed upon. This could be sent home weekly in their Monday folders for parents to see what was happening at school.
??? - Is this making discipline too hard? I mean..less manageable?
??? - I kind of liked having the kids have to tell me what rule they forgot when they were telling me what color their name was on. Since there will be no visible record for them, but I will have the information on the clipboard, should I still ask them to verbalize their behavior that day, or just document it without asking?
??? - I'm also toying around with the idea of not posting consequences . I will explain that there WILL be consequences, but if I do that will the kids constantly worry that I will think of some horribly embarrassing tactic to punish them? Should I make a list of possible things that could happen, or just hope that when I explain that "we'll decide on a consequence that is fair together" that that will ease any fears?
I'll stop for now......but expect more! I'm still not finished reading the book
I have several ideas running through my head concerning ways to modify my behavior plan this year in a Love and Logic kind of way. Of course, with ideas come LOTS of questions, which is where YOU come in
Here is what I have done the past 2 years...(hopefully in a nut shell!):I have used a variation of the card system. Instead of each child having a set of cards that they flip, I have laminated cards (construction paper) on the board that I write their names on each time a rule if forgotten. At the end of the day, I ask what color each child's name is on, and i document it on a behavior calendar (which, after assigning points/day, this gives me their citizenship grade each week). I like aspects of this system b/c it helps me with 1) citizenship grade and 2) rewards (they earn a star if their name stays on green, and 5 stars earns a treat/good note home/name in the good behavior basket. When everyone's name is in the basket, a class celebration is earned)
Here's what I'm thinking.....
1) instead of having the "cards" on display, have a sheet on a clipboard that would have a box for each child. If a child misbehaves, instead of posting their names, have a conference, write down the rule forgotten, and document consequences discussed and agreed upon. This could be sent home weekly in their Monday folders for parents to see what was happening at school.
??? - Is this making discipline too hard? I mean..less manageable?
??? - I kind of liked having the kids have to tell me what rule they forgot when they were telling me what color their name was on. Since there will be no visible record for them, but I will have the information on the clipboard, should I still ask them to verbalize their behavior that day, or just document it without asking?
??? - I'm also toying around with the idea of not posting consequences
. I will explain that there WILL be consequences, but if I do that will the kids constantly worry that I will think of some horribly embarrassing tactic to punish them? Should I make a list of possible things that could happen, or just hope that when I explain that "we'll decide on a consequence that is fair together" that that will ease any fears?I'll stop for now......but expect more! I'm still not finished reading the book
runsw/scissors
Phenom
OK-I know that just about all teachers in my building k-4 use some variation of the card system. I don't because I think that by 5th grade they ought to know what is expected without visual reminders of how they are doing. They really should be able to self monitor. That said I think the card system can either be positive or negative depending on how you use it. Since you consistently reward those who do well I would say it is more pos. I really don't know how 2nd graders can be (competitive, mean spirited, really don't care how anyone else is doing) but my concern would be that some would start giving the "bad kids" a hard time and the others would feel pidgeon holed. I like the idea of keeping it on the clipboard and private.
I would keep holding the little conferences and making them tell you what bad choices were made. It keeps them thinking which is the idea behind L&L-make them think and do the work rather than you.
I wouldn't worry too much about them thinking you are vindictive or a cruel schemer if you don't expressly state the consequences. You may want to go over/brainstorm some possibilities with them early on when you explain how your classroom works if that gives you peace of mind. Have them come up with ideas. You'll be delighted with their creativity. Often kids punish themselves in ways we would never dream.
I would keep holding the little conferences and making them tell you what bad choices were made. It keeps them thinking which is the idea behind L&L-make them think and do the work rather than you.
I wouldn't worry too much about them thinking you are vindictive or a cruel schemer if you don't expressly state the consequences. You may want to go over/brainstorm some possibilities with them early on when you explain how your classroom works if that gives you peace of mind. Have them come up with ideas. You'll be delighted with their creativity. Often kids punish themselves in ways we would never dream.
runsw/scissors
Phenom
How's the reading going divey?
divey
Companion
Sadly, I'm finished with the book (sadly b/c I really enjoyed reading it!) so now I'm thinking of ways to implement L/L in my classroom
Have decided to post a list of student "expectations" (formerly known as rules) as well as a list of teacher expectations. Consequences are NOT going to be posted, but I'm not going to make a big deal out of that. Just not have them there, and if any parent asks about what will happen if their child doesn't follow the "rules", I am just going to say that we will decide together on a consequence that is appropriate and fair. We'll see!
I am trying to decide what they can expect from me as a teacher. Some of the things I've thought of are:
As your teacher...
1) I will work with you to solve problems in a fair and consistent way
2) I will, with your help, teach you everything a 2nd grader needs to know
3) I will treat you with the respect you have earned (still wondering about the wording of this one)
and for students expectations...
As student's in this class...
1) You will make good choices
2) You will treat others the way that you want to be treated
Can you think of others that might be good?
Have decided to post a list of student "expectations" (formerly known as rules
) as well as a list of teacher expectations. Consequences are NOT going to be posted, but I'm not going to make a big deal out of that. Just not have them there, and if any parent asks about what will happen if their child doesn't follow the "rules", I am just going to say that we will decide together on a consequence that is appropriate and fair. We'll see! I am trying to decide what they can expect from me as a teacher. Some of the things I've thought of are:
As your teacher...
1) I will work with you to solve problems in a fair and consistent way
2) I will, with your help, teach you everything a 2nd grader needs to know
3) I will treat you with the respect you have earned (still wondering about the wording of this one)
and for students expectations...
As student's in this class...
1) You will make good choices
2) You will treat others the way that you want to be treated
Can you think of others that might be good?
Mrs. Schulte
Rookie
As students in this class...
2. You will treat others with respect.
3. You will put 100% effort into each activity/lesson we do.
As a teacher...
3. I will treat you with respect.
2. You will treat others with respect.
3. You will put 100% effort into each activity/lesson we do.
As a teacher...
3. I will treat you with respect.
runsw/scissors
Phenom
There is a poster you van get from the L&L website stating how you will run your room. It says something like "If I see you are having a problem I will ask you to fix it. If you do not fix it I will have to do something." and so on. I have this in my room and just point if anyone starts in with "That's not what happened when so-and-so did it!"
divey said:okay..that got me tickled!
So....(next question) how do you keep your empathetic responses from sounding like sarcasm? i have been trying out different responses to situations that happened in my classroom last year, and every time it comes out of my mouth it sounds like it's dripping with sarcasm!
The best approach is what I learned in my Love and Logic classes and that is practice in front of the mirror until you have gotten the empathetic tone down and not the sarcastic tone.
It really works!
runsw/scissors
Phenom
Go to the home page and click on store. Then select educator products. You can get the poster with a package of books and other stuff or separately. The individual poster is a few pages in.divey said:I've been to the L/L website and wasn't able to find that. Where do I look?
nephroneis
New Member
posting rules
I use love and logic and I do post rules based on the philosophy. I think I got them out of the book. They say, "I can only listen to one person at a time", "I teach when there are no distractions or other problems", "I listen to students who raise their hand", "Please treat me with the same respect I treat you", "If someone causes a problem, I will ask them to fix it", "If they can't or will not fix it, I will do something!" I refer to them often throughout the year when there is a problem or when the students need a little refresher of what is expected in my room. Hope this helps
I use love and logic and I do post rules based on the philosophy. I think I got them out of the book. They say, "I can only listen to one person at a time", "I teach when there are no distractions or other problems", "I listen to students who raise their hand", "Please treat me with the same respect I treat you", "If someone causes a problem, I will ask them to fix it", "If they can't or will not fix it, I will do something!" I refer to them often throughout the year when there is a problem or when the students need a little refresher of what is expected in my room. Hope this helps
c_muschany
Rookie
I am looking at a few different management books. One of course is Harry Wong. I really liked that a lot. Then, I was given a book called Conscious Discipline. I believe my school wants to try and implement this strategy. I don't really care for it. Then, I started reading love and logic and really really like it. I think it will take some time to get the questioning down instead of the angry response when they aren't listening to me. How does this work with the younger students, and has anyone heard of conscious discipline and just think it is great? Please fill me in.
Cindy
Cindy
divey
Companion
I have never heard of "Conscience Discipline". If your school is wanting to implement it as (I'm assuming) the school-wide discipline policy/plan, does that mean that you HAVE to follow it? Or can you still implement L/L if that's your preference? If your administrator is on the lookout for a new behavior "plan", have they discovered L/L yet? If you prefer L/L to Conscience Discipline, it might be worth your while to suggest that your principal check out L/L before deciding to go with C/D (that's MUCH easier to type )
) c_muschany
Rookie
You're right, and I haven't seen her to ask yet. But, I definitely will conform to what they want. I just think I might do better with the L/L. In the conscious discipline, you are taking so much time to get a situation under control. Thanks.
runsw/scissors
Phenom
Parts of L/L can be used with any discipline plan in my opinion. We used DWP for a long time and L/L went very well with it. L/L was the day-to-day management while DWP was more self-discipline skill oriented. More like Life skills in my opinion. The school wants to do away with DWP but I still plan on teaching the skills.
divey
Companion
I'm having a brain fart as to what DWP would be...could you enlighten me, runsw/? BTW...I found the poster on the L/L website and for a mere $15.50 (what's the deal with shipping costing almost as much as the item you buy?!?) will have it to post in my classroom along with the 2 "expectations" posters I made (one for students, one for teacher).