love and logic vs. rules and consequences?

Discussion in 'Elementary Education Archives' started by shandannon1, May 17, 2005.

  1. shandannon1

    shandannon1 Rookie

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    May 17, 2005

    Hi! I just got home from an interview at a Great Expectations model school. The principal interviewed me ,, and two 3rd grade teachers. One of the questions I was asked was, how would I handle discipline? Naturally I said,,I would have rules established and the students would get two warnings, after that they would have to write down what rules they broke, and write out a plan about how they would modify their behavior. Well,,,the principal called it aggressive discipline, or something like that and that kind of discipline was fading out of the schools fast. Then they asked me if I knew about Jim Faye, and of course I knew that hes the love and logic guy. However, Ive never seen any teachers using his technique. They talked about how its better to have natural consequences and all. Well,,,whats wrong with telling kids what the rules are and if they fail to abide by them, they wont recieve reccess or something they like may get takin away? Is it all the same thing, but the love and logic is just worded differenty and is all sugary and sweet?lol Anyhow,, I did like the school and the teachers and prinipal seemed really nice. I just wondered do any of you use love and logic technique. And is what I thought to be a somewhat good behavior management system really fading in the schools?
     
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  3. Kitty

    Kitty Rookie

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    May 17, 2005

    shandannon1,

    I am reading your post with great surprise. I had the exact opposite of an experience when I was interviewed for a teaching job at the "International School" in an European city.

    At one point the principal asked me "What is the most important for kids?" And I said "Love."

    I noticed immediately that it was not the answer he was looking for. Instead he introduced me into the a system of severe discipline and structuredness that they were observing in that school. I am in favor of discipline and structres, too. Sure. But they had a punishment system that I simply disagrees with my views of education.

    For example, they would divide children into many, many different classes for learning foreign languages. It means the "good" ones and the "less good" students would be separated from each other and attend different courses. The shifting of a student from one course to another one would happen as often as necessary, thus, could happen anytime.

    I find that really overreacted as an educational system. The principal had so many logics in his mind that "love" was not even yet in his vocab.
    They actually wanted to take me in the end as a teacher but meanwhile I had found a more pleasing position where I could freely apply my teaching principles.

    Well, this is just to show you the other extreme. I hope you would find a middle path and perhaps this school could be a good beginning for you in this area where love and discipline can be conjoined.

    Best,
    Kitty
     
  4. camcdade

    camcdade Comrade

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    May 17, 2005

    I understand your suspicions about the Love and Logic method. I would really highly recommend that you read Faye's Teaching With Love and Logic. (Great for a summer read!) Even if you don't use everything he outlines, I can say that it is one of the best professional books I've ever read as a teacher. The book explains the philosphy and why it works so well, especially with "tough" kids. It actually does encourage consequences for behavior, but teaches kids that the choices they make directly influence the type of consequence they receive. It opened my eyes to how to better form real relationships with my students so they behave, not because they are afraid of breaking some "rule" or "getting in trouble", but because they love me and want to please me and not let me down. It puts the focus on each student's personal responsibility, which is something I feel is really lacking today in society in general and with students specifically. If used consistently, the method will teach students how to solve their own problems and guide them in changing their own behavior rather than the teacher doing it all. I think you'll find that it really only requires a bit of a change in your thinking as a teacher. I really enjoy the interaction I now experience with my students, and don't miss the old "Here are the rules, so follow them or else" method that has been so common in schools for so long. I hope you will read the book and learn what it's really about. I really think you won't be disappointed! :)
     
  5. camcdade

    camcdade Comrade

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  6. clarnet73

    clarnet73 Moderator

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    May 18, 2005

    An example...

    I was outside on the playground with about 40 2nd graders... because the melty snow had made puddles underneath a whole bunch of the equipment, I'd closed a section of the equipment... the kids didn't listen, and were very shortly back playing there again... so i went over AGAIN and reminded them it was closed, etc... well, one of my girls jumped down off the equipment directly into a puddle.

    Her consequence... sitting on the bench with wet feet. She wasn't in trouble, per sea... sure, she broke the rules by playing where she wasn't supposed to... but her punishment/consequence was something natural and logical.

    At least, I *think* that's what it is.

    From what I understand, a lot of Love and Logic is giving kids choices within an appropriate context... so it's "do you want to write first or draw first" or "are you going to pick up the trucks first or the blocks first." Helping them learn to make decisions that are appropriate at their level so they'll be able to make bigger decisions later... (ie, in high school and oclleg,e I never had a curfew, my parents just asked at what time they needed to start worrying about me if I wasn't home yet. Made it more MY choice, although still negotiable. ;))

    So natural consequences... you jump in the puddle instead of following directions, you have wet feet. You don't finish your work when you're given work time, so you stay inside to finish it at play time. Things like that. It doen't mean there AREN'T consequences, it's just that they're natural consequences... think about your life... natural consequences for not showing up to work? You don't get paid. Natural consequences for not paying the bills? It gets shut off or you get nasty phone calls and letters. Natural consequences for not calling your mother? She calls you up surprised to hear you haven't fallen off the face of the earth.
     
  7. shandannon1

    shandannon1 Rookie

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    May 18, 2005

    Thanks so much everyone for your helpful examples!!! In college,,they focused mostly on Harry Wongs First Day of School,,and briefly touched on Love and Logic. I am going to go out ASAP and buy the Teaching With Love and Logic book. Clarnet, your examples of natural consequences were very helpful. Its all about common sense when you think about it. Now I really hope I get a position within this school so I can apply the techniques. Thanks again everyone!!!!!!
     
  8. Amanda

    Amanda Administrator Staff Member

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    May 18, 2005

    Amazon has it for just over $12 -
    Teaching with Love and Logic

    I have the book, too. I highly recommend it. I had some training in Love and Logic at my school. :) Rather than being in contrast to rules and consquences, love and logic is more about how you implement rules and consequences. I also wouldn't call it sugary and sweet - When I think of Love and Logic, I think of natural consquences, no nonsense (taken from students), respect (it goes both ways), and responsibility (students have to take responsibility for their actions).
     
  9. sandimreyes

    sandimreyes Comrade

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    May 28, 2005

    After reading this post, I looked up the sites on "Love and Logic", then I went and bought the book. I must tell you...I LOVE IT! It makes perfect sense, helps to make the day (and me) calmer, and allows consequences to have meaning.

    Next year, I will be able to fully implement the concept, but I have already begun trying to use a lot of the strategies in my class. Much of it is stuff we, as good educators, already do. For me, it put the concept right in the front of my mind so that I remember to use it continually instead of sporatically. It also put the words right in my mouth for me. I've been using it on my most severe discipline problem and I see an improvement. I offer him his choices and allow him to make them. There is no more "punishment". When he misbehaves, I offer him the choice "participate in the activity or go into the library and read a book". He will always choose to participate. If he misbehaves again, I inform him that his actions showed me that he has now chosen to read a book in the library and he should go now to do that. End of discussion.

    In addition...I tried it on my hubby...and it worked! Last week, I became very upset about the number of people my husband invited to have dinner with our family. Normally, I brood and force myself to have a miserable time. (This tactic has never gotten me anywhere, by the way!) This time, I tried "Love and Logic". I told him that I am very upset, but I refuse to allow it to ruin my dinner, so lets just have a good time and we'll talk about it later. It was such a departure from my normal reaction that he didn't know what to do. Instead of being on the defensive, he started to worry. He constantly checked with me throughout the evening to see if we could talk yet. I kept telling him that I would not interrupt my dinner to discuss it and he'd have to wait. By the end of dinner, he was apologizing. YEAH! Go "Love and Logic"! :D
     
  10. camcdade

    camcdade Comrade

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    May 28, 2005

    Sandi - that's hilarious! I find myself using Love and Logic with my family and friends, too. It really does start to affect the way you treat all people and the way you choose to react to and handle difficult situations. For people who may not know, the author has also written Parenting With Love & Logic for using with your own children. My school's counselor has held parenting classes at our school using that book as her resource.
     
  11. TeachWildThings

    TeachWildThings Comrade

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    May 30, 2005

    My children's school district uses this method also, (though it is not "enforced" many teachers do not.) The principle of my child's school gave a two part lecture discusion at our PTA meetings on it and got a very positive response from the parents, however I don't think all the teachers were quite sold....
     

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