Let's talk school shootings

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Caesar753, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. ms.irene

    ms.irene Connoisseur

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    May 22, 2018

    You know what else they all had in common? Guns. Lots of guns that are designed to kill lots of people fast.
     
  2. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    May 23, 2018

    I thought one of the arguments for gun ownership is the gun is needed to protect you from the 'bad guys'. If the gun is in a safe and the ammo in another it sort of makes that argument redundant.
     
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  3. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    You make a great point here. It also brings up the idea of removing a right by making it so onerous that the right can't be used. I'm all for gun safety and trying to protect a gun from being stolen, but if you own a gun for self protection, have the gun locked in a safe on one side of the house, the ammo in another on the other side of the house, and someone breaks in do you say, "Excuse me please, Mr Criminal. (Always using your best manners.) Please wait until I go open two different safes on opposite sides of the house and load my gun."

    I do think special measures must be taken to ensure young children don't get guns, but at some point regulations can take a right away.

    Blazer pointed out the jist of this, but I'm wondering if those who put more and more regulations on ownership are actually using it as a way to remove the right in a back handed way.
     
  4. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    May 23, 2018

    I just did a search on Google News. I entered "student guns found". It brought up the following headlines. Dateline: Today: "Student Brought Gun and 5 Rounds...West Harrison High". Dateline: Yesterday: "Guns found at 2 schools, threats reported at 3 schools near Santa Fe....", "Hargrave High School Placed on Lockdown after Student Found with Gun", "Appoquinimink...Student arrested for Brandishing a Gun", "Student arrested for bringing unloaded gun to League City Intermediate". These are just the most recent headlines. Here's an interesting one from May 2. "Semi-automatic rifle, shotguns, handguns seized from teen with Franklin High 'hit list'". Again, since 2009, 288 school shootings have injured at least 1 person. But the total number of actual incidents involving firearms is much higher.
     
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  5. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

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    May 24, 2018

    You may think our guns are just "laying" around but they are in places where it's not easy accessible. Also our AR's that are in their gun cases are under the bed. The only load gun that we have is in my husband nightstand. Our nightstand is kinda hard to explain. You have the two drawers but there is a small hidden compartment that can come out. If you step back and are just looking at it, you wouldn't know the small hidden compartment. That is where he has the gun, it is for any intruders. We are in FL. So we have that right that if someone comes and breaks in we legally can use force if we have to. That is the only gun that is loaded in our household. It's not like we have guns just laying around the house and being irresponsible because that is what you Caesar753 and a2z are portraying me as. Like I said we, do not have kids because I can't have any. We are homebodies and do not have any people that come over, which is how we like it. When my niece does come we do take precautions.

    But these school shootings when it's from a parents gun, a parent needs to held responsible to a degree. We do when a student becomes a truant and the parent has to come in and in some cases a fine is imposed. Why is this any different? Parent needs to start stepping up.
     
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  6. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    No, we are not portraying you as you claim. Not at all. You made absolute statements regarding punishing parents if their children manage to get their guns. You 100% had no leeway in your statement. Kid gets the gun, you get prosecuted. No ifs, ands, or buts. Horrible parents if a child gets a gun. You then went on to explain how you took extra measures to "secure" your guns from a visiting family member and pointed out you have yet to buy the safest method to secure your guns and claimed your method was at acceptable measures. But for a parent, what you do would not be enough in your eyes. You also ignored our comments about how sneaky, smart, and crafty kids can be when finding things in homes.

    Our point, if I can speak for Caesar too, was that there is no foolproof method to keep a kid from finding guns in a home or from a thief from finding them in the house and stealing them. You can make it harder but it is not foolproof. That was our point. Not that you let guns lay around willy nilly.

    Now, in the post you quoted, I am pointing out how the laws are at odds with self protection. In order to be safe and not prosecuted if the gun is used by a child or someone else, you need to make it inaccessible and unusable when needed. In my mind that is a tactic to remove guns from people without actually removing guns.

    You do realize after what you have just explained, according to your desired new laws, your husband could be prosecuted if someone broke into your house when you were not there and took that gun from the nightstand because it really is unsecured even if it is hard to find.

    Somehow you want to believe that I'm saying you are doing something wrong. I'm not. What I am saying is your absolute about holding parents accountable is extreme, especially when you don't have your gun secured to the extreme level. Your insistence that you can safely hide a gun from a child or teen is ridiculous and somehow negligent of the parent if the child ever ends up finding it. You might be able to have eyes on your guest 24 x 7 for a short period, but parents cannot have eyes on their children 24 x 7 nor would it be healthy for any parent to do so.
     
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  7. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    May 25, 2018

    Please bear with me as I twist these articles from my Google News search this morning and create my own mythical article.

    The Ebola outbreak continues in the U.S. Last week, it was stopped before it could spread to any students at Dixon High School in Illinois. This week, a threat for the disease was also reported at Mount Vernon High School, but it might have only been a distasteful hoax; nevertheless, officials are investigating. Surprisingly, the disease has also appeared at a school in North Yorkshire in the United Kingdom reports the BBC. These are in addition to the recent Ebola threats found at West Harrison High, Hargrave High, Appoquinimink, League City Intermediate, Franklin High, and several schools near the Santa Fe school where an outbreak actually did occur.

    Again, please pardon my distortion of actual news events concerning school shooting/bombing attempts. I am not writing this as a pun or a joke. I've just been wondering. If we were dealing with Ebola rather than school shootings, would we be confronting the situation more seriously?
     
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  8. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Seems to me in all cases we would be trying to keep the sick student away from the school. The police, school, and FBI had multiple chances with the Parkland shooter. How may times can sick people be on the radar of multiple authorities and be allowed to roam the community? Talk to them later.... I know he had blood running from his eyes, but I just thought it was the common cold.
     
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  9. creativemonster

    creativemonster Comrade

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    May 25, 2018

    And... just since this thread has opened there have been how many school shootings?
     
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  10. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    May 26, 2018

    Add another one. Noblesville Middle School, a teacher and a student were shot and injured and the high school also received a bomb threat (and students and staff prepared for an active shooter). The local TV station, www.wishtv.com, interviewed several students. Fortunately, teacher Jason Seaman was able to disarm the student and his action rescued many students.
     
  11. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    Jun 9, 2018

    BBC News, www.bbc.com , had an interesting article yesterday, June 8, 2018, "US School Shootings: Lullaby Used to Teach Drills". A prospective parent for a Massachusetts Kindergarten classroom noticed the following song taped to the board, to the tune of "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star":

    Lockdown, lockdown
    Lock the door
    Shut the lights off
    Say no more
    Go behind the desk and hide
    Wait until it's safe inside
    Lockdown, lockdown
    It's all done
    Now it's time to have some fun

    Just as I was posting this, CBS Philly also appeared on Google News with the same article, adding that the school is Arthur D. Healey Elementary School in Somerville.

    Wow. I learned the alphabet to that tune. Now kids need to learn how to protect themselves from becoming the next school shooting victim, (again, since 2009, over 288 shootings that weren't stopped in time). When I was in Kindergarten, my biggest concerns were how did Timmy's toenail get so big (he brought a clipping in for show-and-tell), what will happen to Uncle Wiggly in today's story, and when are we going to the cafeteria for our snack? My biggest fear in Kindergarten was being sent to the corner. My neighborhood fears were bees and the mean lady five houses down. My parents taught me safety lessons: look both ways before crossing the street, don't talk to strangers, and don't go past these points on the sidewalk. My only memory of guns was being taught by my dad to never point my cap gun at anyone. I still remember standing in the living room while we discussed this.

    That was 1963. We've progressed since then. Now we don't know which school will be the next target for shooting practice. Now we have bump stocks turning rifles into machine guns. Now we're wondering if teachers need to carry guns during class. Now someone even tried to sell a video game about shooting up a school, (is it becoming a recreational sport now)??? Now it's reached a point where even the students feel they need to speak out, (and in return what have they received? Viral cyber bullying from a professional journalist about nothing even related to David Hogg's protests).

    In 1963, we sang

    If you're happy and you know it clap your hands
    (Clap! Clap!)

    Now it's listen out for snap, snap of the rifle.
     
  12. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    Jul 31, 2018

    Today is the last day of July. Most school districts are about to reopen in August. How much has been constructively accomplished in keeping schools safe this next school year? I realize that much cannot be discussed openly in a public forum, but I still ask the question, how much has been constructively accomplished in keeping schools safe this next school year? I paused after writing this last sentence, and in my mind, a sudden crack of a rifle sounded. I shuddered. A tragedy is only one rifle shot away.
     
  13. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Jul 31, 2018

    Fla. is putting an armed person in every school or requiring it. Training is going on as we type. Not sure it will be the answer.
     
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  14. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Some counties are saying they simply don't have the funds. St. Lucie County was just in the news on the topic.
     
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  15. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    Aug 1, 2018

    I was thinking about this yesterday. Many ideas are just too expensive to implement, but I would think it would be beneficial for commercial enterprises to donate funds. I don't mean this in a cold-hearted manner, but by donating to schools, they are protecting and enriching the education of their potential customers and employees. They are also developing protection for their own stores; new ideas to protect schools can be applied to stores. But many businesses and entrepreneurs donate for humanitarian reasons; donating to school safety is a pressing and essential cause.
     
  16. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    Not that I'm against an armed guard at a school. Our school system is also implementing that. But I agree with your thought on this; I'm not sure that is the total answer, either. The guard, in most cases, won't be able to do anything until something happens, after the fact. The exception would be if something suspicious occurs that would cause the guard to investigate. I'm hearing people say, if perpetrators know the school is armed, they won't try anything. Yet in many cases, the perpetrator commits suicide prior to police interference of the shooting; in other words, they are more concerned with committing violence against others than protecting their own lives. And outside of school shootings, other acts of violence do occur in areas with armed personnel. It probably is a deterrent, but perhaps other deterrents need to be discovered and implemented.

    I keep thinking, there's probably something that can be done that nobody has thought of yet. I hear a lot of arguments, but arguing only results in a counter argument. We need discussions where everyone's ideas are considered. It's the collection of ideas that lead to workable ideas. And ideas need to come from all sources, not just government, not just school boards, but from many people. And I had another idea last night. Students' ideas should be considered.

    Some of the perpetrators, and I can barely stand the thought of this, but some of the violence comes from students themselves. Who better to understand students than students. Perhaps student generated ideas will lead to workable ideas to provide even greater protection.
     
  17. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    There is no real "fix" to the problem without addressing the real problem. The problem lies within the a broken society. Until the society fixes itself, only an army of guards at every location will deter shootings at locations. They it will just move into the streets.
     
  18. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Connoisseur

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    Will this be a police officer?
     
  19. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Connoisseur

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    Out of curiosity, how many of your schools have security systems? I never saw these when I was growing up, but it seems like most schools require adults to ring a bell to get into the building if they do not work there. This is what I had to do when I substitute taught and student taught.
     
  20. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    All of them. Every MS and HS has an armed officer on campus. Sometimes there are two.

    At most schools you get buzzed into the lobby/ main hall of the school rather than into a confined space. Sure someone out to do no good will report directly to the office!
     
  21. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I imagine that it's tough for students to come forward with their ideas when they are publicly mocked by our elected officials and accused of being paid actors.
     
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  22. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I think it is beyond that. Kids can't even talk to administration about unfairness in their own school such as the teacher lunch monitors making the "good kids" clean up after the ones they know won't clean up after themselves. In their own school talking about somewhat important ideas such as fairness to others, which can be at the heart of what is going on with some of these kids, is shut down.

    I think public ridicule is terrible, but I think kids don't speak up because schools don't really want to hear from them.
     
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  23. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I agree.

    Most of the changes we would need to make in order to keep our schools safer (in my opinion) are things that extend far beyond the reach of admin. It's the politicians and society at large who need to hear from students, and they don't seem to want to listen either.
     
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  24. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    not in all cases. I think Broward said they are training ex LEOs or ex military for some positions.
     
  25. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    I thought it was to be police officers in all schools, even elementary, in Fl. Am I wrong?
     
  26. Joyful!

    Joyful! Habitué

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    I think that was to have been the goal. In my county, the sheriff's office denied funding to the school district and sent them back to another revenue stream. I think it will shake out to HS/MS with police, and Elem with trained possibly former LEAs
     
  27. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    And I thought such harassment was illegal.
     
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  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    It depends on who is doing the harassing...
     
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  29. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

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    In Brevard, they are saying they need more time to train the volunteers them so the Sheriff is making at least one deputy is in each school. Also, each school has fences all around the perimeter. Some already had one but they put them up for those that didn't.
     
  30. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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  31. ms.irene

    ms.irene Connoisseur

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    Our school is an open campus with no one main entrance or hallways -- our classrooms are mostly in L-shaped "wings" that open onto open space. The campus is huge -- it takes up several city blocks and is surrounded on three sides by open fields. There is no way to alarm or close such a campus layout, which is not unusual here in Northern California. Unless they want to fence it in with razor wire, which is starting to not sound like an impossibility...
     
  32. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    Ours does and my schools growing up always did too. I attended six schools in three districts and they all had the same type of set up. I started school in 1994.
     
  33. physteach

    physteach Companion

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  34. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    Aug 24, 2018

    The staff and students are also an important security alert. If something unusual is noticed, it should be reported and responded to. Hesitation is the friend of the attacker. While reading the above CNN article and the above recent posts, I was reminded of incidents, although fortunately benign, and other incidents of a dangerous nature, since I've been a teacher. In some cases, action to investigate or respond was immediately taken, but in some cases, action was delayed. In my opinion, it doesn't take that much more effort to ensure that students are safe. I also would suggest that "unusual" be a key word in an observation. Sometimes, the absurdity of a report tends to dampen the possible severity, especially if a child is reporting.

    But two circumstances are at play. First, a young child has limited background knowledge for interpreting what s/he sees, hears, or smells. The child's report to the teacher might include seeing a monster or a ghost or some other such interpretation. Yes, more than likely, it's a fantasy, but what if it isn't? Secondly, perpetrators of violence might follow standard procedures, but who says they have to? They don't have a rule book to follow; they don't follow rules, period. A perpetrator might begin in quite an unusual way, perhaps due to a mental illness or an unusual belief system.

    The old adage, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure," seems even more appropriate in today's current society of potential violence against schools.
     
  35. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    I tell my students this every year (usually multiple times a year). They are the ones who will see things like threats on social media. Staff usually doesn't. I told them we'd rather have them tell us and the kid was "just kidding" than have them think it's a joke and have something happen. I was so proud of them when we did have something serious show up on social media and by the next morning, at least 25 of our kids had told someone, whether it was their parents who then contacted someone or went right to a staff member they knew (small town so a lot of kids live around us staff!).
     
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  36. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    All of the elementary schools do. Not for school shootings though. It's been that way for over a decade. Ever since we had two attempted child abductions in the same school year.
     
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  37. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Aug 25, 2018

    Another school shooting last night in Jacksonville. I think at a football game.
    In Palm Beach County, there was one last week on the football field, though not by a student and injuries only to adults.
    In Palm Beach County, also, an incident at a football game where a player from the local team was punched by an opposing team player and had to undergo surgery.
    I don't even want to leave my house.
     
  38. Joyful!

    Joyful! Habitué

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    Upsadaisy, we had families and kids-some on the field-- from our church at that game last Friday at Central v. Dwyer. Talk about a frightening few minutes! What relief when we were able to confirm that they were all safe. For me, it was heartbreaking to watch one of the local students interviewed on local news. He stated that he thanked God it wasn't one of them and was disgusted that adults would take that shooting action at their game. Truly, it broke my heart that he found comfort that it wasn't a classmate. It says alot about this world. It is my hope that the work we are doing in the classrooms can help kids navigate the rottenness in the world by helping them to cultivate the goodness and kindness in them.
     
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  39. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    I'm so glad that your kids were okay, and that all of them were. How stupid of the adults involved to use that location. (It's just about 2 miles from my house.) Every bit of support that kids can get helps, but I don't even know how they learn any more. It is a frightening world.
    I tutor a student with an online curriculum. She had a friend at Stoneman Douglas school in Parkland who videoed the action during that tragedy. My student also saw a taped interview with the perpetrator done just a short while before the event. Chilling.
     
  40. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

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    There has been discrepancy in the news as to the actual number of school shootings based apparently on statistical error or how to define a school shooting. This year, I decided to keep track myself. My time and resources (Google News) are limited, so I might err in underreporting, and this project might become more than my time will allow to continue. I decided to tally both shooting and bombing situations, and record not only actual occurrences but thwarted attacks, threats, and hoaxes as well. I decided on a personal definition of school violence--if it happens at the school, inside, outside, or in an area dedicated to a school event during a time when students and/or teachers are present.

    Beginning Aug. 6, 2018, there have been 33 reported incidents in the news involving 22 juvenile suspects and 2 adult suspects. (Some suspects at the time of the news report had not been found). 16 events involved firearms and 17 events involved bombs. There have been 5 injuries and 2 deaths. 5 shootings actually occurred, and 28 shootings or bombings were thwarted, threatened, or were hoaxes.
     

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