Let's talk school shootings

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Caesar753, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    808

    Mar 17, 2018

    This has been running through my mind, also. Cruelty breeds negative reactions. The old adage, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me," is false. The age old advice, "Just ignore them," only results in further outcasting towards the victim. Today's perfectionist culture demeans anyone who differs from the crowd, and when a person is shoved out of the safe enclosure of social acceptance, s/he searches for survival. In the meantime, those who are enclosed within the safety of the group are under constant fear and even surveillance by the rest of the group. "Did you know what Sam did, yesterday?" is whispered among the group when Sam isn't present, and no one wants to be the next topic of conversation.

    I even wonder if feigned friendliness is more detrimental than outright bullying. I see this all the time among adults--real polite when the person is within earshot, but out of earshot and it's another story.

    But concerning the kids who become outcasts, this didn't happen overnight. There are kids who are shunned, kids who are picked on, and this just eats away at the victim like a cancer. But just as a tumor is cured by antibodies fighting against it, there is healing power in a peer giving a friendly smile. In cancer, the tumor must be diminished early, and the same is true with cancerous bullying. But just one person can stand up against the peer pressure and befriend, not just be polite, not just tolerate, but truly befriend the suffering student, this can put the cancer into remission.

    A few days ago, I was recalling 10th grade. There was a girl who for religious reasons always wore plain ankle-length skirts. She always ate lunch by herself. I recall my friend at lunch laughing about her difference in appearance. I was thinking, what if I had walked over and asked to sit with her and become friends? So what if her religious beliefs differed. This is the mindset we need to teach kids today! Why outcast anybody? We need each other, and how much more enriched our lives are when we accept each other for who we are. Each person has something special to contribute to the group, and how much are we missing when someone isn't allowed to contribute?
     
    Upsadaisy and a2z like this.
  2. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,000
    Likes Received:
    160

    Mar 17, 2018

    I don't know if the bullying in school sports is leading to school shootings exactly, but I agree the negativity with which some of the kids treat each other is awful.

    The weird thing is that some of the kids not only don't mind it, but actually enjoy it. Even when it's directed at them (as long as not EVERYONE directs it at them). Trash talking becomes a sign of group membership. I still dislike it, though, and prefer it when my kids are on the baseball team. Baseball doesn't seem to foster trash-talking as much, I think due to the structure of the rules and the way it's played.
     
  3. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,745
    Likes Received:
    1,668

    Mar 17, 2018

    Trash talk is like compliments. For some the compliment is to build someone up, used on others it is an underhanded jab and never meant as a compliment. Sometimes the people receiving the underhanded compliment don't realize it but everyone else does. Sometimes they know that they are being treated poorly as the others watch and don't care.

    It is like any other social situation. Some people are predisposed to dealing with certain things better than others. Others are not and need extra help. Sadly, most kids that are ostracized don't get help. They are told to not worry about it while the torture continues. Then when they fight back, they are usually the ones most punished.

    This behavior, even if it isn't directed at a student most of the time, is seen by the students and they internalize it. Even the kids in the crowd that might be causing the issue will have members that internalize it because they are only in the group to avoid being the target.
     
    Obadiah likes this.
  4. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    18,935
    Likes Received:
    676

    Mar 17, 2018

    What a screwed up society we live in.
     
  5. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    808

    Mar 18, 2018

    Last night, I viewed What We Can Do about the Culture of Hate, on Ted Talks, www.ted.com . Wow! I highly recommend this 18 minute video.
     
  6. TeacherNirvana

    TeacherNirvana Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    9

    Apr 7, 2018

    You haven't met my players. They trash-talk all the time (even to each other). Actually, the National Federation of High School Sports has started issuing statements on the amount of unsportsman-like conduct coming out of dugouts during high school baseball games. Umpire chapters are being encouraged to eject more players because of this.
     
  7. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes Received:
    347
  8. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    808

    May 19, 2018

    In the wake of yesterday's two school shootings, one in Santa Fe, Texas and another in Georgia, CNN reported that in 2018 there has been an average of 1 school shooting per week!
     
  9. JimG

    JimG Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    144

    May 19, 2018

    Apparently, the Santa Fe assailant had been seen wearing a shirt that said, “Born to kill,” and he concealed his weapon under a trench coat in humid 88 degree Texas weather...

    We have very little control over gun laws, culture, mental illness, and all those other macro buzzwords thrown around after every one of these cowardly acts. We DO have control over being observant for things that don’t look or sound right. We DO have control over reporting something suspicious. We DO have control over building relationships with our students so that they feel comfortable coming to us to report something and so that we can recognize if a kid is acting out of sorts. We DO have control over drilling what to do in an active shooter situation with our kids and in our own minds.

    Focus on what YOU can do to be proactive in spotting suspicious behavior. During passing periods, if you stay at your desk catching up instead of doing hall duty, you might miss seeing or hearing something that could lead to preventing a dangerous situation before it starts. The same spirit applies in the lunch room, during assemblies, etc.
     
    Obadiah likes this.
  10. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,745
    Likes Received:
    1,668

    May 19, 2018

    The post about cutting in line got me thinking even more about bullying. Decades ago kids could stand up to a bully and the school would turn a blind eye because they knew the only way to stop a bully was to stand up to them and sadly it might mean doing so by more than words. There would be no "assault or violent" marks in a transcript that would go on to a college. There would rarely be any police intervention.

    Now we have an environment where we have all of these anti-bullying programs that really give kids no recourse or no real way to stop the bullying. Sure, tell the teacher, who in many cases doesn't want to hear it, and the bullying just gets worse because it is never really take care of. They don't see it, they don't hear it, and they can't do much. If the bullied does react by fighting back, there goes their chances for getting into a good school with an assault on their transcript. There goes their chance to participate in school activities. Since they threw the first punch, the bully usually gets the least of the punishment.

    Add to that teachers who bully and co-workers who sit idly by and say nothing because it isn't their "place".

    I don't advocate violence, but I hate to say it, unless schools are going to remove the bullies, sometimes that is the only option. A little school yard scuffle is better than gunned down students.
     
  11. Been There

    Been There Habitué

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2017
    Messages:
    849
    Likes Received:
    516

    May 19, 2018

    I just realized that teachers often submit posts to this forum asking for help with difficult co-workers who bully others. Even as adults, many people have never learned how to effectively respond to a bully and are often at a total loss as to what to do - not much different than what goes on among children in the playground. In days gone by, we were encourged/allowed to use common sense to resolve interpersonal differences au naturel, without any concern for what was PC. Now, everything is out of wack and no one seems to know what to do anymore!
     
  12. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    808

    May 20, 2018

    I am in complete agreement with your observation and thoughts. Although not widely reported in national news, from local stories, it appears that many tragedies have been prevented due to such diligence. Statistically, it seems that only a small percentage of teenagers would commit a shooting or other severe act of violence, but on the other hand, it only takes 1 person to cause a disaster. According to Wikipedia, school shootings have been occurring as early as 1764, but only recently at such a tremendous number. That surprised me too, that the shooter was advertising violence with a shirt proclaiming "Born to kill." Wearing a shirt that essentially says, "Hey, I might have a problem," makes me wonder if anyone checked on the student to see if help was needed. He says he had a story to tell, well, what if his story was told before the shootings.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  13. GPC0321

    GPC0321 Companion

    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    157

    May 20, 2018

    I'm a 16-year veteran teacher, and I'm getting to the point where I actually have some anxiety and apprehension about my career because of how unsafe it is. I realize anyone anywhere can pull out a gun and start shooting, but knowing teenagers like I do, and seeing them become less personally connected to society and more self-absorbed and indifferent to others, even in my small, rural school, is...disturbing. There was a time when the idea of a school shooting on our campus never entered my mind. Now, it wouldn't surprise me one bit and I can actually think of a couple specific kids who worry me a little.

    There are students in my school who do not seem to have anything or anyone they care about enough to NOT throw their lives away. To them, it would be worth it to wind up in prison or dead if it means being able to hurt other people. And these kids range from those who are victims of abuse and bullying to those who drive Porsches to school and whose parents make constant excuses for their bad behavior.

    When the tables have fully turned and the children are running the show, we're all screwed. Faculty and staff have to BE THE ADULTS and stand up to the bullies. Stand up to the students who bully other students. Stand up to the students who bully teachers. Stand up to the teachers who bully students. Stand up to the teachers who bully other teachers. Stand up to the parents who bully their children. Stand up to the children who bully their parents. Stand up to the parents who bully the teachers.

    Right is right and wrong is wrong. We have to stop being afraid of hurting someone's feelings by saying, "NO. You're being mean. That is unacceptable."

    I'll try to steer clear of politics, but let's just say, this is a problem that goes ALL the way to the TOP here in the U.S. It isn't just our schools. It's our society.
     
    Obadiah and stephenpe like this.
  14. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    808

    May 20, 2018

    Checking the news on my phone this morning, Anderson Cooper stated that more people have died in schools than in the military. I'm not sure of the timeline of his statistics, but no matter. That is....sorry, I'm at a loss for words, for an adjective strong enough to express my feelings of fear. I was in high school in the 70's. OK, we're getting close to half a century ago, but should that much change in half a century? It did, but why????????????????????????????????????????
     
  15. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,015
    Likes Received:
    474

    May 20, 2018

    We need to do as much as possible as a society to prevent these school shootings. It seems that cities put lots of $$$ into reducing crime and get some good results, but our high schools and junior highs are often ignored. New York City had over 2,000 murders in 1990, now they have about 400 a year after more than doubling their police force and doing many other not so inexpensive interventions. I do believe we can make our schools a lot safer and it might not be inexpensive, but it would be worth it.
     
    Obadiah likes this.
  16. minnie

    minnie Cohort

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2007
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    41

    May 20, 2018

    This is probably a stupid question but...what did Anderson Cooper mean? What about WWI WWII? I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding what he meant.
     
  17. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    5,863
    Likes Received:
    737

    May 20, 2018

    The story was that more children have died in schools this year (2018) than soldiers in the military.
     
  18. MsAbeja

    MsAbeja Companion

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    109

    May 20, 2018

    Specifically, in the year 2018 more US children have died in school shootings than have military personnel. Not all military deaths in all wars, but just so far in 2018.
     
  19. minnie

    minnie Cohort

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2007
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    41

    May 20, 2018

    Ok that's what I thought. Thanks
     
  20. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 20, 2018

    We also need to hold the parents accountable for the school shootings. Why not? Most of these kids cannot go into a gun shop and buy one so they go to their parents gun cabinet and are grabbing one. So the parents should be held as an accessory. They need to make it harder for their children to access these guns. My husband is active duty military and we don't have children but when my niece comes over for a week to two in the summer, we take all precaution to make sure she cant gain access. Once he retires (next year) we plan on getting a gun safe. Gun safes aren't easy to move they are about 400 plus pounds and once you place it, that's where it stays. Now they have more technology for gun safes such as the iphone where they can recognize a thumb print and how many thumb prints you want on there. This would drastically cut down the "trying to find the key to the safe" I think we need to hold parents now who own a gun that is used in a school shooting are also responsible as well. No more, well I didn't know Johnny was using it blah blah blah excuses. When you signed the gun permit, you are signing your name for full responsibility to that gun.
     
    blazer, readingrules12 and Obadiah like this.
  21. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,745
    Likes Received:
    1,668

    May 20, 2018

    Unless you are moving the guns to another house while they are visiting, you aren't taking all precautions because you admit you will be getting a gun safe. Why do so if "all precautions" are acceptable now?

    It is amazing how kids can figure out how to get into things that are locked away or what we think are well hidden.
    Which is why you think that you can set up fool-proof systems so that kids, especially older teens, can't break.
     
  22. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    She is 10 but the last time she came out to visit was 7. When she came out, we took out the magazines from the guns, so they weren't loaded and also checked the chambers. We moved the magazines away from the guns by putting it in a small safe that it's fire proof. It's no gun safe by no means but the ammo is away from the guns. What we do with guns, we put them on the highest shelf in our closet that she cannot reach unless she grabs a chair. If she does that, that means she is left unattended, when she is with us she is always with myself or my husband. So yes, she can't have access to the guns in our household.

    If you can't keep gun access away from teens, then maybe you shouldn't have it in your house. Like I said there are new gun safes out there with newer technology incorporated. Yes, its more costlier but with everything that is going on, it's also a piece of mind that if you have kids in your household that they can't access it.
     
  23. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    Many kids are getting guns from neighbors or friends. At least some of the guns used in the Columbine shooting were purchased legally by a friend of the boys at a gun show.

    It's important to remember that even guns that are stored safely can be stolen. Not all gun safes are 400-pound beasts; there are plenty of small, concealable safes that would easily fit into a backpack. And, as you've indicated here, there are plenty of people who don't lock up their guns because they don't have children in the house. Are we going to hold accountable everyone who has a gun that isn't locked up? If your unsecured gun gets stolen, are you as responsible as a parent whose gun was stolen?
     
  24. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    My husband is active duty military and having his AR's under the bed. Some of his other guns in their boxes just sitting in there when it can be in a gun safe seems like a better idea instead around the house.
     
  25. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    I'm not sure how familiar you are with adolescents, but they can be really crafty and resourceful. If a teenager wants to get at something, they will find a way. I can guarantee you that you are not with her 100% of the time. I mean, you have to shower, use the bathroom, sleep....
     
    a2z likes this.
  26. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    If their child took it from their parent, then yes. Parents need to be more diligent especially when they know they have a firearm in the household. You ask are we going to hold accountable everyone who has a gun that isn't locked up? Only if their kid takes it and goes to school and uses for deadly purposes.
     
  27. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    but not in my bedroom. she has a guestroom and her own bathroom
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    I mean, what if a neighbor kid comes to YOUR house and steals the guns that you don't keep locked up in a safe, then goes to school and shoots the place up?
     
  29. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    I really think that you're being short-sighted about this.
     
    a2z likes this.
  30. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    I am young but I just dont have kids coming/flocking to my house. Your theory is flawed.
     
  31. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    I will have to disagree with you on this. She never comes in to my bedroom and if she did, everything is in the walkin closet. We take precautions when it comes to my niece, probably more than the parents did in Texas and the people in Parkland. And the last time she came over was 7 which was 3 years ago. But if the student takes a gun from home and goes to school to kill, parents need to be accountable for some degree. I am tired of hearing, oh we didn't know. When I did parent teacher conferences, they were never taking an interest in their child's life. So things need to change.
     
  32. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    There's no flaw. People sometimes break into houses, and when they do, they sometimes steal guns. A break-in is always a possibility. Your guns aren't locked up, so your guns could pretty easily be stolen during a break-in. You would carry some accountability in the event that your stolen gun was used to commit a crime.
     
    a2z likes this.
  33. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,745
    Likes Received:
    1,668

    May 21, 2018

    I know a family that had to take shifts because their child was waking up at night and exploring. Yes, the child would even sneak in their bedroom. The child was stealthy and curious. There wasn't a think that child couldn't find. Who knows how long it was going on before they figured it out.

    Never say never when it comes to kids and teens.
     
  34. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    And that is where my husband would show all receipts with the serial numbers with each gun.So if it were to be committed in a crime it would come back stolen.
    I haven't heard what you would do in a situation. Play sheep? Be another statistic? We can agree to disagree. But I am tired of having students, staff, and faculty entering buildings but some coming out in body bags. Enough is enough. Like I said we can agree to disagree. We aren't getting anywhere between you and me because all you want to do is dispel what I have to say about guns. If that's the case, go to your trouble students and say a positive word to them a day. Keep doing it. Just one positive word a day, you would be amazed how much impact that can have on them. I am done talking to you . Good day.
     
  35. Janedo5513

    Janedo5513 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    16

    May 21, 2018

    Then that's the time they should have gotten rid of their gun if they were going to that extreme.
     
  36. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,745
    Likes Received:
    1,668

    May 21, 2018

    But since it was accessible to be stolen, according to you, your husband should be held accountable. It should be in an uncrackable and unmoveable safe. Right?
     
  37. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    I feel like you're misunderstanding what I'm getting at. What I hear you saying is that parents should be held responsible when their children use their guns to commit crimes, because parents should be responsible by locking up their guns. You also say that you don't lock up your guns. My concern is that people may steal your unlocked guns and use those guns to commit crimes. Of course there would be a record that the gun is stolen, provided that you knew it was stolen and reported it, but by your own logic it wouldn't absolve you of the responsibility. By not locking up your guns, your guns are as accessible as anyone else's, including the parents.
     
    a2z likes this.
  38. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,745
    Likes Received:
    1,668

    May 21, 2018

    They didn't have guns, but there are issues well beyond guns when a child is roaming at night. Yes. They did seek medical treatment for the sleep dysfunction, but the only way to insure the child wasn't getting into something was to take shifts until everything was under control.
     
  39. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    May 21, 2018

    And actually I haven't really said anything about guns other than to point out that your guns are no safer, and are in fact arguably less safe, than anyone else's.
     
    a2z likes this.
  40. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    808

    May 22, 2018

    I read two troubling articles on CNN yesterday. The first one, "The U.S. Has Had 57 Times as Many School Shootings as the Other Major Industrialized Nations Combined," generated the following statistics. Based on all school shootings that included at least 1 injury and included all schools from elementary through post high school, since 2009 there were 288 school shootings in the U.S.! In Canada, 2, in France 2, in Germany 1, U.K., Italy, and Japan "none identified [in their research]". And that does not include the shootings without injury or the shootings that have been stopped prior to occurring. Further down the article, they report Mexico: 8, South Africa: 6, India: 5, Pakistan: 4, Nigeria: 4, Afghanistan: 3, Brazil: 2, Greece: 1, China: 1, Kenya: 1, Azerbaijan: 1, Russia: 1, Estonia: 1, Turkey: 1, Hungary: 1, Spain, Austrailia, Switzerland, Netherlands, Argentina, 0 incidents identified.

    A second troubling article, again on CNN, "NRA's Incoming President Ties Ritalin to School Shootings, but Here's What the Science Says", Oliver North suggested that Ritalin, used by males since Kindergarten, along with violent media, is possibly responsible. He claimed that many of the shooters had been on Ritalin since Kindergarten. Although I agree that we need to investigate any possible correlations including pharmaceuticals, I'm troubled by this statement. I'm presuming he researched each shooter's medical history prior to making this statement, but even so, correlation is not always equivalent to causation. There are many people on Ritalin who do not shoot others. I know of a pastor who takes Ritalin. But also, although Ritalin is a prescribed stimulant, many, perhaps most people frequently throughout the day use the drug caffeine found in coffee, soda, and chocolate. I feel certain if a statistic was gathered from all prisons, most if not all of the inmates have either drank coffee or soda or eaten chocolate but that correlation probably does not apply to their criminal history. My greatest concern is that this statement will now hit some mass media as positive "proof" that ADHD kids on stimulants are possible future killers, which could lead to ostracism of children whose ADHD or ADD is medicated.

    I've previously seen propaganda in supposedly authoritative media which made statements demeaning ADHD kids as undisciplined and hooked on "tranquilizers". Ritalin is not a tranquilizer: Ritalin is a stimulant. ADHD does not necessarily mean misbehaved; I've taught ADHD students who were the best behaved in the classroom. All kids need to learn proper social decorum. ADHD kids sometimes experience different "misbehaviors" than non-ADHD kids. Sometimes they're just not as good at hiding their misbehavior as other students are due to their spontaneity. And not everyone on Ritalin has ADHD.

    I'm very concerned that we not politicize this issue of school violence, or let it burn out, but that people who make decisions in government and in schools sit down and talk. We don't need political promotions for agendas, we need solutions. And fast, if not sooner.
     
    Upsadaisy likes this.

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. blazer,
  2. MrTempest,
  3. Alexander,
  4. Backroads,
  5. catnfiddle,
  6. LovesToTeach123
Total: 438 (members: 6, guests: 410, robots: 22)
test