Let's talk school shootings

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Caesar753, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,485
    Likes Received:
    1,026

    Feb 19, 2018

    For what earthly purpose do kids need textbooks in class? Seriously. The teacher should be teaching in class. The textbook is a good reference to keep at home, and good for homework assignments, but there is no need to lug those things around every day. Take it home and leave it home. Worst case scenario, if they are needed in class, maintain a class set.
     
  2. JimG

    JimG Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    144

    Feb 19, 2018

    I am not going to play the what-if game about past events of which I do not know all the details. I think I made it pretty clear though in how it could reduce vulnerabilities. For an assailant to rack up a massive body count in those locations, he must first sneak the weapon into those locations.
     
  3. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    353

    Feb 19, 2018

    You have the 2nd amendment to enable you to defend yourselves just in case us evil British decide to invade again. I can tell you that we probably won't be doing that anytime soon. It seems that the price of having the right to unlimited gun ownership is a massive death rate including regular mass shootings in schools and at other places such as Las Vegas. Your debate is whether this is a price worth paying just so some individuals can be better armed than the American soldiers who stormed up Omaha beach and can stockpile more bullets than were probably fired at the battle of Gettysburg. Who exactly do you think these people are defending themselves from?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  4. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    353

    Feb 19, 2018

    Thick textbooks may be bulletproof.
     
    stephenpe likes this.
  5. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    825

    Feb 19, 2018

    I read in the news that the students from Parkland and other students around the U.S. are planning a rally in Washington to express their opinion on gun control. Some are also organizing peaceful rallies in their hometown. Although we all have agreements or disagreements politically on this issue, I think it's noteworthy and remarkable that young high school students are taking positive action concerning something they believe in.
     
    linswin23, CherryOak and anon55 like this.
  6. JimG

    JimG Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    144

    Feb 19, 2018

    Deleted. Double-posted something that I thought hadn’t gone through initially.
     
  7. Belch

    Belch Companion

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2017
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    86

    Feb 20, 2018

    I use them primarily as a way to forgo spending time in front of the lithograph machine.

    For many subjects, a textbook can be left at home, but for others, they make things easier. Not to mention that homework is one of those ideals I'd prefer, but not exactly relevant, if you know what I mean.
     
  8. DinoTeach

    DinoTeach Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    4

    Feb 21, 2018

    It's a multi-faceted problem that needs to be addressed on the family front, the mental health front, the bullying front, the isolation front, the cultural "anything goes" and disregard for human life front, and, yes, the gun front. I doubt the staunchest 2nd Amendment supporter believes the Sandy Hook shooter or the Florida shooter should've been allowed to have a gun.

    That said, when all those fronts fail (and, at some point they will because humans have been breaking laws and murdering each other for all of human history), we need a plan in place to save lives. When the deranged shooter is running toward my classroom with a gun, me screaming, "MORE COUNSELORS!!!" doesn't help. Stopping him with firepower does. I propose allowing teachers who hold concealed carry licenses to be able to carry at school, with the gun on their person (not in a drawer or bag), or, if we don't like that idea, providing armed security details at a 1:500 (or any part thereof) armed guard-to-student/teacher ratio.

    Yes, do all we can to stop them before they start. But once a shooting HAS started, we need to stop it as quickly and effectively as possible. And, unfortunately, that means bullets. Not what a signed up for, but it is a current reality.
     
  9. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    Feb 21, 2018

    I think this is just a terrible idea.
     
    Upsadaisy and Tyler B. like this.
  10. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,485
    Likes Received:
    1,026

    Feb 21, 2018

    But don't ya know----the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun!!!
     
  11. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    446

    Feb 21, 2018

    More guns. Guns in schools with hundreds of children. What could possibility go wrong?
     
    anon55 likes this.
  12. ms.irene

    ms.irene Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,559
    Likes Received:
    737

    Feb 21, 2018

    The day I am supposed to be armed as a teacher will be the day I quit.
     
  13. DinoTeach

    DinoTeach Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    4

    Feb 21, 2018

    Would someone mind expounding on why it's a bad idea? Again, I don't propose forcing guns on teachers--you only carry if you want to. Secondly, the gun needs to be on their person, not in a purse or drawer. Third, a good guy with a gun sounds like a MUCH better plan to me than running or ducking and covering. Many districts have adopted what's called the ALICE method--the C stands for counter. The idea is teachers have the ability to throw things, charge the gunman, etc. if that seems like the best option. I'd much rather counter with a weapon than with a textbook or box of pencils.

    I try to be pretty open minded, so please, genuinely, tell me why it's a bad idea instead of making fun.
     
  14. viola_x_wittrockiana

    viola_x_wittrockiana Comrade

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    140

    Feb 21, 2018

    Here's why it's not a good idea. With the weapons that are available, unless it happened starting in/adjacent to an armed teacher's room, by the time someone could respond the damage would already be done. Before anyone discounts this, think about all of the variables and priorities. It takes time for the sound to register as gunfire, time to identify where the sound originated, time to secure your own students, time to get to that part of the building, time to locate the shooter(s), and more time to get a clear shot. It's better to have armed resource officers who are trained to do all of that faster and free from duties to a class than to have armed teachers. Any outside forces also wouldn't know who's a teacher running around armed and who the aggressor is, which is another unnecessary risk. That's only accounting for logistics and not any of the liability/responsibility or psychological issues involved. It's even better to try to stop guns from getting into schools in the first place.
    I get it. I don't want to be a sitting duck either, but guns aren't the only weapons in existence. The risk of accidental shootings outweighs the benefit of having a gun in the classroom IMO. Personally, I favor bludgeon-y or stab-y choices because they better suit my skills and a bat or bookend aren't going to accidentally kill my students. But again, the best offense is a good defense. How about we have classrooms better equipped to keep students protected instead of accepting passive risk as a necessary choice?
     
    Obadiah likes this.
  15. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    446

    Feb 21, 2018

    Bad idea:
    - More bullets flying around a place with lots of children.
    - Pistol vs. AR-15: who's going to win that one?
    - During a chaotic episode, it may be unclear who the bad guy is
    - Every day, some teacher's purse is stolen from a locked desk or cabinet
    - Simple firearm training is insufficient. Teachers would need combat training and constant refreshers
    - I know some teachers who would make me uncomfortable knowing they were armed
    - In other countries, students don't need to try to learn around a bunch of deadly weapons. It's unfair to children and staff to attempt learning/teaching in that environment.
    - There's no other first world country where teachers are armed. That's because it's a bad idea and they control who has guns.

    The solution is extremely clear. Other nations have dealt with problem, or avoided the problem, by making it very hard for civilians to own military weapons. If the shooters had a bolt action hunting rifle with a 5 shot magazine, Las Vegas, Orlando, Sandy Hook and Florida would have far fewer deaths.

    Ban military weapons.
     
  16. DinoTeach

    DinoTeach Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    4

    Feb 21, 2018

    If we do this, and a shooter comes in with a pistol or a knife, what's the argument then?

    Thanks for replying--I believe we all genuinely want to protect kids. Why can't we try it ALL? Mental health, crack down on bad guys with guns, and arm teachers or put armed guards in.
     
  17. DinoTeach

    DinoTeach Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    4

    Feb 21, 2018

    I do like the idea of safer/more secure classroom. I seem to remember a device a few years back that made it almost impossible to open a door. Maybe we should equip all rooms with those.
     
  18. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    Feb 21, 2018

    Maybe we shouldn't be training our children to live in a police state where every person they interact with is armed with a gun. Are we preparing them for life, prison, or a military state? The normalization of guns guns guns everywhere can't be good for the minds and hearts of these little ones. The additional bullets that would be flying around can't be good for any parts of their bodies.
     
  19. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    8,323
    Likes Received:
    1,440

    Feb 21, 2018

    I'll just leave this here since we need a slight comedy relief... mixed with some truth from the great sage Robin Williams.
     
    miss-m, Obadiah, MrsC and 1 other person like this.
  20. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Feb 21, 2018

    I will never teach in a building which regularly has a loaded gun. Ever. If a cop needs to pop in once in awhile, that's different, but I will never teach in a building with an armed security guard or armed teachers. Nope. Not interested.
     
  21. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,250
    Likes Received:
    452

    Feb 21, 2018

    Our SRO is armed on campus every day. I wish that, given the size of our campus, we had two SROs. I do not want armed "security guards" with little training, but we have three ROTC instructors who are all retired military. I would be fine with them having access to weapons to use in the case of a shooter on campus. I don't think they need to carry them on them all the time on lunch duty or whatever.
     
  22. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    793

    Feb 21, 2018

    Everybody has to make the decision that is right for them (and I might feel differently if I taught in a high school setting), but for me, I have no interest in a situation like that. If I had to choose between a school with an armed guard, or teacher, or armed anyone, and getting a 9-5 doing whatever somewhere else, I'd go for option two.
     
  23. SpecialPreskoo

    SpecialPreskoo Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    379

    Feb 22, 2018

    Obadiah likes this.
  24. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    825

    Feb 22, 2018

    Guns don't protect; people do. Special training is required to overcome the natural tendency to hesitate prior to shooting; armed teachers would need this special training. Warning shots, shooting to lame, or just saying, "Drop your weapon" works in the movies, but they have a script to follow; real life doesn't. And in westerns for example, guns are firing back and forth and hardly anyone gets hit--that is not real life, either. A bullet hits any person in the way of it, and this includes ricocheted bullets, even if the person firing is defending against another shooter.

    I'm sitting here reading and pondering all these posts. And I think it's good that we're discussing various opinions. This is a serious, serious problem that needs consideration from all sides. EVERY WEEK the newspaper discloses a local threat to a school. I'm often dumbfounded on what I can add to this discussion. Right now, I'm at my desk at home and I have another chore that I meant to start 50 minutes ago: I'm still here at my desk pondering.

    Some odd thoughts that have gone through my mind. I don't mean this as silly, but I can't picture Mr. Rogers wearing a gun. Another thought: I'm about to go the shopping mall. I will have my cell phone with me, just in case--if a shooting would occur, someone needs to call 911. And when I'm in the restroom, I don't want to be the next victim in the paper (every restroom in the mall has had an assault of some sort recently).
    Just some thoughts.
     
  25. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    18,935
    Likes Received:
    676

    Feb 22, 2018

    Just saw this on twitter:

    Wanted: Teacher
    Job Description: Low pay, no respect from society, might have to kill someone, probably a student, will need to know which one to kill while panicking, starts immediately, art supplies not provided.
     
    Caesar753, SpecialPreskoo and Obadiah like this.
  26. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    18,935
    Likes Received:
    676

    Feb 22, 2018

    And this:

    .@NRA's Wayne LaPierre: Right to bear arms is "not bestowed by man but granted by God to all Americans as our American birthright."

    James Martin SJ :

    Needless to say, neither God in the OT nor Jesus in the NT said anything about Americans. Rather, Jesus told his disciples to "take no staff," when staffs were used as weapons (Lk 9:3). And he tells Peter to sheath his sword: "Who lives by the sword dies by the sword" (Mt 26:52).
     
    Tyler B. and Obadiah like this.
  27. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    825

    Feb 23, 2018

    A teacher is responding to a violent situation. The teacher sees a boy pull a gun and so the teacher shoots the student. But was that the correct student?

    We don't truly see with our eyes. Our eyes send nerve stimulation from light to the brain, and the brain bounces it back and forth to decide what is actually to be reinterpreted as light. Often this interpretation is based upon previous learning. That's why, at first glance, we might think we see something that isn't really there. In my hypothetical situation, the boy was pulling a cellphone out of his pocket. Oh, and the actual shooter was a girl. The teacher's eyes weren't expecting a girl.

    Back to what really happened in Florida, I read shocking news last night. I'm not a police officer, so I know I shouldn't be passing judgment on procedures I know nothing about, but I'm concerned. Recently, after tragedies, I've noticed that someone is blamed. I don't know if further articles have updated information, but from what I read last night, the security officer at the school stayed outside of the building while the shooting was going on. The article made it look like he was avoiding being shot himself while other teachers took bullets in place of their students. He resigned and retired after the fault was placed on him. But another teacher from the school questioned how his entering the building would have solved the problem; he wouldn't have been able to shoot the killer but he, himself, would have been shot. The article reported that during the shooting he was outside on his radio. I do know that police communication is used so further responders can adequately locate a shooter and stop him/her. A dead policeman only would continue the shooting. If he is truly at fault for not responding correctly, then yes, the blame is appropriate, but then also...in a sudden situation such as this, mistakes will be made. I'm not convinced with the sketchy information I currently have that this was an act of cowardliness, and again, I'm not convinced it was an actual mistake, even. Hindsight is often more accurate than foresight, and after each tragedy, police have learned better ways to respond to situations, ways to improve protection and prevention, but sometimes, horrible as it is, we don't know for sure what to do until after it happens. I found it interesting that this was an exemplary police officer that the entire staff and students at the school respected and trusted.
     
    Upsadaisy likes this.
  28. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    825

    Feb 23, 2018

    If I might make one more quick comment. We've had 150 posts on this thread. I was thinking last night, we, as teachers, are making a difference by discussing our opinions from our perspective on this thread. This is how.

    Niall Ferguson cites research, in his book The Square and the Tower, that we are usually only 5 or 6 people away from contacting anyone else. In other words, I might know someone who knows someone who knows someone...who knows President Trump or the secretary of education. But he also emphasizes that recent research also indicates that within a forum such as (in the researcher's example) Facebook, we might be only 3 contacts away. It is very, very, very likely that the President himself or members of Congress are reading our posts on A to Z.

    Ferguson, Niall. The Square and the Tower: Networks and Power, from the Freemasons to Facebook. N.Y.: Penguin Press, 2018.
     
  29. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,767
    Likes Received:
    994

    Feb 23, 2018

    We need to fix the children / people, not the guns.
    If children grew up with a healthy mind and abilities to cope with negative feelings, trauma, etc, every household could have guns laying around and the kids wouldn't even think about shooting anyone.

    Obviously we can't do all this right now, but in my opinion taking guns away from responsible people is not the answer. It is obvious that criminals would still find a way to get it.
    I have 4 rifles at home, not locked up, but it is not loaded. My daughter is 20, obviously if she was younger I would have it all locked and put away. She has no desire to shoot anyone. That's what we need to aim for.

    Second, as I said before, instead of banning guns, we need a more effective background check. I don't think we can ever find out if someone has a mental illness, it won't come up in a background check. Should it? Isn't that doctor - patient privilege and private information? But we need to find a way to ensure that someone with a mental illness and desire to take revenge on people for some wrong doing cannot just buy a gun.
     
    ssgirl11 and Been There like this.
  30. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    353

    Feb 23, 2018

    But the NRA actively works against background checks by advocating for an ancient paper based system which they are not allowed to digitise because, they claim, it infringes something in your constitution.

     
    Caesar753 likes this.
  31. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,767
    Likes Received:
    994

    Feb 23, 2018

    I know and that's part of the problem.
     
  32. ssgirl11

    ssgirl11 Companion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    67

    Feb 23, 2018

    The school that I student taught at had a 7th grader shoot himself in the head accidentally in the school bathroom a few days ago. The child died, but he had distractionary devices in his backpack, so his motives were unclear. With that being said, a nearby school district has had 10 suicides this year. TEN. And that's just one school district. Guns aside, there is a clear mental health problem in this country, and this is much harder to fix than guns.
     
  33. TeacherCuriousExplore

    TeacherCuriousExplore Cohort

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    98

    Feb 23, 2018

    I am honestly against the idea of teachers being armed because like every law the gun laws will not benefit black and brown teachers and students. Teachers being armed will only strengthen the school to prison pipeline and bring a more significant divide in the educational gap for minority students.

    There will be teachers armed that never in there lives shot at someone in the line of duty or in a crisis. Teachers will then result to shooting others based on their fears for another race or religion, The classic response they will give to the police for killing a 12-year-old boy is, "I felt threatened for my life."

    Schools are a safe haven for most young students. Just imagine teaching in a district or a school where almost 90% of the students live in disadvantaged areas. Their homes are in shambles only to go to the most structured place of their lives and the people that they look up to are armed in dangerous.

    Put the guns down and teach. Go to your lawmakers and push for better pay and equip schools with the resources to identify mental illness at an early age. Also, Stop ignoring Early Childhood Education and allocate funding for preschools so that they can receive better intervention for young students with issues before their public school career begins.
     
  34. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,752
    Likes Received:
    1,673

    Feb 23, 2018

    How so?
     
    Linguist92021 likes this.
  35. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,752
    Likes Received:
    1,673

    Feb 23, 2018

    The rhetoric would tell you it is a war zone where they must fear for their life every single day.
     
  36. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,468
    Likes Received:
    2,485

    Feb 23, 2018

    There's a good article in The Atlantic today that addresses this part of the issue.
     
    TeacherCuriousExplore likes this.
  37. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,752
    Likes Received:
    1,673

    Feb 23, 2018

    On this we agree completely.
     
  38. TeacherCuriousExplore

    TeacherCuriousExplore Cohort

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2016
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    98

    Feb 23, 2018

    Armed teachers will only bring about a school atmosphere that is surrounded by policing something that most students in disadvantage areas are all too familiar with. Why not create a positive atmosphere and show students a life outside of what they already know. As a result, minority students will be forced to alternative schools or placed in long suspension bringing a gap in their educational attainment
     
    MsAbeja and webmistress like this.
  39. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    446

    Feb 23, 2018

    So sad!

    We do have a mental health problem in this country. However, I can't believe our country has a higher percentage of suicidal children or homicidal maniacs than anywhere else. We are awash in guns. It's not hard for an ill child or a crazy adult to get a gun.
     
  40. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,752
    Likes Received:
    1,673

    Feb 23, 2018

    Didn't really see anything in there that answered my question other than the fact that there have been reports of some teachers making racial slurs.
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. Backroads,
  2. TeacherNY,
  3. MrsC,
  4. RainStorm,
  5. Obadiah
Total: 370 (members: 5, guests: 347, robots: 18)
test