Kindergarten Retention

Discussion in 'Elementary Education' started by Katie0923, Feb 15, 2020.

  1. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    More insults, future?
     
  2. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    More mathematical nonsense, a2z?

    If 91% are in the 4-5 year range (isn’t that basically what I have been saying all along?), then 9% is in the 5-6+ age range, not 96%.

    Are you serious?
     
  3. futuremathsprof

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  4. MrsC

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    Here, students being retained in any grade is almost unheard of. I have had experience with only one student being retained in kindergarten. He had some minor developmental delays and some health issues which impacted his attendance at school. During his senior kindergarten year (K is a 2-year program here), he attended school less than half time for most of the year. We had countless meetings and it was felt that he didn't have the physical or developmental stamina to attend grade 1 full-time, so it was decided to keep him in K for one more year. I will say that parents were the ones who pushed hardest for the retention.

    OP, your daughter sounds as though she can move on; she's making progress and you are willing to work with the school to help to reinforce skills.
     
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  5. futuremathsprof

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    I completely agree. Excellent answer.
     
  6. otterpop

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    I imagine this varies by region. I’ve never heard of a 4 year old kindergartner. In my home state, you must be five in order to start kindergarten. Districts will not let you start at four even if you turn five 3 days later. Therefore, you turn 6 during the school year, unless your birthday is the following summer.
     
  7. otterpop

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    OP... is it possible to hire a tutor over the summer to help your child catch up?

    I will say though, as an older elementary teacher, I notice this: my students who were held back a year seem to have benefited from it. The difference in maturity is not an issue. However, the students who have been consistently behind but have not been held back often continue to struggle. A child who is low in second is often low in third, and then low in fourth, and so on. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. But repeating the grade might possibly give your daughter the foundation she needs to do well in the future, rather than to continue to struggle.

    One other option: let her go to first, but then hold her back then if next year’s teacher recommends doing so.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  8. YoungTeacherGuy

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    Two things:

    In California, students cannot enter kindergarten at age 4. Period. We have a program called Transitional Kindergarten (TK) for children who do not meet the age cutoff for kindergarten enrollment.

    Secondly, the child mentioned in the OP’s message would not be retained. We do retain kinders, but it’s typically when they only know a handful of letters and sounds. We also take age into great consideration when retaining. Due to the child’s age, we would absolutely not retain.
     
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  9. futuremathsprof

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    Nationally, students can attend K before the age of 5. Only starting in CA in 2012 did that law that you are referencing go in effect, which raised the minimum starting age from 4 to 5. I attended K when I was 4 back in 1996.
     
  10. a2z

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    In some states, and usually not for very long:
    http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/MBQuest2RTanw?rep=KK3Q1802
     
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  11. YoungTeacherGuy

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    I feel very strongly that students should not attend kinder before the age of 5. As a whole, they’re not developmentally ready. That’s why CA wised up and developed Transitional Kindergarten. Other states are catching on.
     
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  12. futuremathsprof

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    I feel like we keep lessening and lessening standards and I don’t know why.

    In CA, community colleges did away with the Algebra 2 requirement. More and more colleges are doing away with the SAT/ACT. Graduation requirements are being lessened — I had to take four years of history in high school and now students are only required to take two to get into a UC/CSU school, for instance. Students can’t be given zeros in many school districts for turning in NOTHING. It’s ridiculous.

    In my area and every surrounding city, students are given unlimited retakes for exams in public schools and military recruiters who visit my private school have commented again and again how they are worried because the caliber of the students they see with each passing year in public schools is diminishing. They are seeing this nationwide.

    The USA already has very poor achieving students from K-12, which is why I think they should start earlier. They should learn grammar, reading and arithmetic starting at age 3-4 because they will have more time to start thinking about those things.

    I absolutely love the French model, which starts students at the age of 3. The sooner the better, in my view.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...3378/when-do-children-start-school-in-europe/

    I don’t see delaying education as a good thing. We should encourage children to think more, not less. They barely think as it is.
     
  13. futuremathsprof

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  14. sevenplus

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    Developmental appropriateness is a thing. As an educator you should know this. (Sorry, couldn't help it. I'm not usually rude but I'm irritated right now.)

    Pushing 1st grade curriculum into kindergarten has not helped students excel.

    Please let's not do this to preschoolers, too.
     
  15. sevenplus

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    How in the world are we dumbing down America by not requiring 4-year-olds to start K?

    Was 1996 the last time you were in a K classroom? Expectations are much more rigorous now than they were 24 years ago.
     
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  16. YoungTeacherGuy

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    I think that if he were to spend a school year in an elementary setting, he’d have a mind shift. Kindergarten is rigorous! That being said, four-year-olds aren’t ready for that type of pace and demand. Again, like I said early, it’s not developmentally appropriate. ​
     
  17. futuremathsprof

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    I actually think it is an excellent verbal joust. Good one!

    What are we going to get rid of next?

    I went to pre-school at 3 and kindergarten at 4. It was very helpful to me and many others in my year, especially for those who came from single-parent households and from low-economic statuses. We needed the enrichment. It gave us foundational knowledge to achieve success going forward. Is the goal to raise the age that students graduate from high school to 20 or something?

    In reading through these standards, I don’t see anything really different from what I did in 1996, unless I am mistaken:

    http://www.teachingfirst.net/standardskinder.htm

    https://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  18. futuremathsprof

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    How were they able to do it for 50+ years before the CA law went into place? What magically made it so rigorous within the past decade?

    Note: I accidentally typed 150+ initially (typo). I meant to say 50+.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  19. YoungTeacherGuy

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    You remember which standards your teacher taught you in kinder?
     
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  20. futuremathsprof

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    I read through the standards one by one and examined what we were expected to know and master. I compared that with what I remember doing.

    I have an excellent memory. Always have.
     
  21. YoungTeacherGuy

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    With all due respect, that’s a little preposterous. You cross referenced the kindergarten Common Core State Standards with that you remember learning as a 4 year old? Shoot, I barely remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
     
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  22. sevenplus

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    In 1996 in CA, the cutoff was 4 years, 9 months. Same as it was in 1975. The law changed by 3 months, not a year.

    In Ohio students aren't required to enter K until age 6.
    When I was in K in the 1970s it wasn't required at all.

    Not sure where the 150+ years comes in.

    I have no problem with developmentally appropriate preschools. But not all students are ready for the current K curriculum at age 5. Making it age 4 or (yikes!) 3 will result in increased social emotional issues at the very least.
     
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  23. CherryOak

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    If our stats are decreasing as a nation, yet we had less rigorous standards set for three and four years olds back in the day, some of this logic being presented is flawed.
     
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  24. futuremathsprof

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    No, I am saying that I read through the current set of standards, which I provided the link for, and compared that with what I remember doing in kindergarten. I didn’t compare the standard side by side, if that is what you are asking.
     
  25. futuremathsprof

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    No. That is not what I am saying at all. I’m saying that the system keeps failing more and more because we keep lessening the requirements on things and going easier on students.

    This is how I feel: “It’s okay, Johnny, just do half. Is half too much? Uh, just pick the ones you want, then. Sally, you did nothing, but you tried and that’s what matters. Raj, you wrote your name illegibly and not much else, but that’s a start. Take two points!”

    Students nowadays gets a participation award and congratulated for contributing nothing.

    I am shocked by the (lack of) work I see the students I privately tutor for middle school through high school. Since when is graphing points, evaluating the absolute value of 4, or using a graphing utility to graph y=2 rigorous for an Advanced Algebra 2 class? Or, my favorite, to use PhotoMath to do all the problems for them. Since when it is acceptable for a teacher to encourage students to use Grammarly to write in-class essays on their Chromebooks for a 10th-grader? Since when is it acceptable for a 5th-grader to not know their multiplication facts, for their teacher to say they don’t need to memorize them, and they can use a calculator for each problem? Since when it is acceptable for 7th-grade students to take pictures of their tests, go home and study the questions, then “retake” the same test with *identical* questions? Since when it is acceptable for a 6th-grader to bring a notecard with written-out vocab words on a spelling test?

    I’m not joking about any of these. I’ve sat in on several classes in nearby cities where I live, with permission, and I sometimes falter and stare with my mouth open when I see these things going on. Everything is made too easy. It’s. Not. Okay.

    This is what I keep seeing and teachers are defending these practices. An increasing number of students I tutor are enrolled in classes where their peers barely have a capacity to think. They are taking remedial courses and accomplishing little.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  26. futuremathsprof

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  27. futuremathsprof

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    Whoops, that was a typo. I meant to say 50+ years. Thank you for pointing that out.
     
  28. YoungTeacherGuy

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  29. futuremathsprof

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    It should be required, IMO, not optional. Higher standards, not lower ones.
     
  30. RainStorm

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    I'm sorry but I have to say it -- this was a thread by a worried parent about whether or not her kindergarten age child should be retained. She wanted information on HER child, and was asking for help from teachers in determining the fate of her child. It started off just fine, but has disintegrated into a debate over what age children start kindergarten, transitional k, preschool, work ethics in grades K-12, and one poster's view of the dumbing down of the curriculum in the United States. How does that help the original poster in determining if her daughter should be retained or go on to first grade?

    You are doing a huge mis-service to the original poster. There are now more off-thread posts than on topic posts.

    If you want to debate things that have nothing to do with the original poster's question, please feel free to start your own thread, and go for it. But it is disrespectful to hijack the original poster's question and divert it until the original question is nothing but a distant memory.
     
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  31. futuremathsprof

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    You are correct. I will stop and apologize to the original poster.
     
  32. K2fun

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    Sorry. Decided to delete.
     
  33. Backroads

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    edit
     
  34. Katie0923

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    Thanks for the comment. I didn't mean to start a debate on when children should start kindergarten :)

    And really thank you to all who gave any sort of advice regarding my original post.
    We still have not made a decision and will not until at least the end of the school year, but all of your responses helped. We have already met with a tutor who evaluated our daughter and thought she showed signs of dyslexia, but can't diagnose her. She also agreed with our teacher that our daughter wasn't ready for 1st grade now, but that doesn't mean she won't be with additional assistance.

    We will receive an educational evaluation from a psychologist who diagnoses dyslexia and other learning disabilities next month. In the meantime, we have set up sessions with the tutor twice a week and are working with her kindergarten teacher on her progress.

    We've also met with the teacher again and I know she really does have our daughter's best interest at heart, even though I really didn't feel that way initially. It is just a lot to hear and process in the moment. So thank you to all the teachers out there who are helping parents like me and helping our little ones learn and grow. I know it isn't easy, but you are making a difference!
     
  35. a2z

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    I would be very careful with this approach. Because of your daughter's age it doesn't take a lot to have the tests show that she is just low, but not disabled. I've seen situations where parents had their child tutored a lot and brought the child up to just above being disabled, but not disabled. But the child couldn't continue without the tremendous tutoring. The tutoring masked the underlying issue but wasn't the right help to really remediate the problem.

    I'm not saying don't go full force after testing, but before, be careful. You might tutor her out of the right kind of help but not be able to provide what she will really need in the long run.
     
  36. otterpop

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    Agreed. I’ve seen this as well.
     

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