Kindergarten Retention

Discussion in 'Elementary Education' started by Katie0923, Feb 15, 2020.

  1. Katie0923

    Katie0923 Rookie

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    Feb 15, 2020

    I apologize for the long post, but I’d like to tell the whole story to get your professional opinions.

    My oldest daughter is in her first year of kindergarten. We had parent teacher conferences in October and found out she was falling behind. We enrolled her in the title program at school and started working with her consistently each night on her letter sounds, sight words, blending words and reading short books. She seemed to be improving from what we could see at home. I followed up with her teacher about a month later and was informed she was making progress and to keep working on it.

    We had parent teacher conferences last week and were informed our daughter is not to where they would like her and they are advising we hold her back for an additional year of kindergarten. We were floored by this. We knew she was likely still behind, but we didn’t realize she was that far behind. She knows her site words and letters/sounds and can blend letter to make words but has poor handwriting, trouble writing sentences unassisted and getting her thoughts on paper for journaling. She also has trouble focusing and participating in class.

    I want my daughter to excel in school, but I am unsure if holding her back is the right choice for her. She is currently 6 and will turn 7 in November. She is already one of the oldest kids in her current class. Her teacher says age is just a number and she’s never heard any regrets from parents who repeat school years. I realize she must be very far behind for this recommendation at her age but I feel like there has to be another solution.

    We have taken a few actions so far. We have contacted her doctor and set up an educational evaluation to ensure she doesn’t have a learning disability. We won’t test/get the results back from that for around a month. We have also contacted tutors and plan to get her started with them as soon as possible and through the summer in the hopes that all of this will help get her caught up enough that her teacher feels comfortable with moving her into 1st grade. I just hope it’s enough.

    If anyone has any advise or experiences with this type of situation, I would appreciate the input. Thanks in advance!
     
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  3. minnie

    minnie Habitué

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    Feb 15, 2020

    I have a student exactly like your daughter. He had a very hard time learning his sight words, letter sounds and reading CVC (consonant vowel consonant) words. He also turns 7 in November! He struggles quite a bit with getting his thoughts on paper and writing a complete sentence. However, after Christmas break, I have seen a tremendous improvement with him. His parents are super supportive and work with him at home as well. He finally is able to sound out words successfully and knows all of his letter sounds. I am not holding him back because I don’t feel he is low enough to be held back. I think he would be bored next year. I picture him sitting on the rug during the first month of school while we learn just on recognizing our letters and him thinking, “wait...I already learned this. Why am I here again?” He also has connected with his peers and would be sad to see his friends move on while he has to stay. It would be different if he could not decode words or if he didn’t know his letter sounds. I don’t feel comfortable holding him back just because of his writing. I believe he will keep
    improving with his writing. Lastly, I don’t want him to turn 7 in kindergarten. He is also the oldest in his class. I don’t want him in a class with 5 year olds when he will turn 7 in November. Also, this student is mature enough to go to the first grade. I believe he would be way too mature for kindergarten again next year.

    It sounds like your daughter could go to first grade next school year. But that is just one teacher’s opinion.
     
  4. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Feb 16, 2020

    I am confused. Your daughter is 6, nearly 7, and is still in kindergarten?! Please explain this.

    I thought kindergarten was for kids who are 4-5 years old.

    This does not bode well for your daughter...
     
  5. Katie0923

    Katie0923 Rookie

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    Feb 16, 2020

    My daughter was 5 when she started kindergarten. She turned 6 during kindergarten year. If she is held back she will start next year at 6 and be 7 in November.
     
  6. RainStorm

    RainStorm Phenom

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    Remember this -- they are advising... You have the final say in the matter.

    They notified you in October that your child was behind. So in about 45-50 days of school, she is behind? I'm glad they gave you things to do with your child at home, and that you did them. That is great. I would turn it around and ask the teacher this -- what things have then done AT SCHOOL to meet her educational needs? If she is so far "behind" the other children, was she pulled out for special instruction? (Not special ed services, because she wouldn't have qualified for that, but schools do have other specialized instruction for struggling students.)

    Did the teacher provide differentiated instruction? Can she give you examples of all the different types of differentiated instruction she provided so you can provide that information to your doctor? Please ask her for the detailed documentation.

    If she is having so much trouble making her letters that she is being considered for retention, has the school had her evaluated for OT? If not, request it in writing immediately.

    I would also want to know how long the teacher has been a kindergarten teacher (how skilled is she at identifying deficits and differentiating instruction?) To me, that information would be important -- if this is a career kinder teacher, her opinion would hold more weight to me. If she's a first year kinder teacher, I'd have more concerns about her ability to identify needs and offer differentiation -- that's not a knock to first year teachers, but there is a HUGE learning curve.

    You mention her reading and sight words. How is she doing in math? Can she count? How high can she count unaided? Can she sort by shape? Can she identify shapes? Can she identify colors? All of this information can easily be provided to you by the teacher (or it should be, anyway.)

    You mention "immaturity." Has the teacher given you specific examples of this? Can the teacher given you specific examples of what she has done to assist your child in developing appropriate social skills for chronological age? How has that helped, or hasn't it helped at all? Does your child have appropriate age level friendships in class? Does she interact with other children appropriately? Is she disruptive to other students, or is she non-responsive to the teacher? What is the next step the teacher is recommending in terms of her social growth?

    You mention her lack of focus. What things has the teacher done to help her stay focused in class? What techniques has she used, and have they be successful? What length of time does your child stay focused on task? A minute? Five minutes? What has the teacher done to increase "time on task" behaviors?

    Last but not least -- this is the most important part -- what skills will she learn by repeating kindergarten that she won't learn by differentiated instruction in first grade? Ask for specific details.

    I couldn't possibly advise you on whether or not your child should be retained without at least ALL of this information. Maybe you already have it? If not, schedule a meeting with your child's teacher, and principal, and if possibly someone from the special ed team (since you said you are having her tested privately) to discuss all of these issues before you will even consider retaining your child. Take a written list of questions with you, and don't let them sidetrack you until you get every single answer. If they can't provide the information listed above, they aren't doing their job in terms of documentation, differentiation, and educating your child.

    Best wishes.
     
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  7. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Feb 16, 2020

    Well, you are wrong. With the cut offs that are not as the first day of school but later in the school year, you do end up with kids turning 6 in K. They start as 5 year olds, but turn 6 because they are the older ones.

    Example. The cut off is Nov 1. A child must be 5 by then to start. So you will have some 4 year olds in the class at the start of the year. The youngest being Oct 31st b'days. Then you have the child whose bday is Nov 1. That child does not start the same year as the 4 year old started. But on Nov 1 that child turns 5 but still in pre-school or home. At the start of the next school year the child starts as a 5 year old. On Nov 1 of the school year the child turns 6. For most of the school year the child is 6. That child is the oldest in the class (except for those who purposely hold there kids a year before starting K). So the span for much of the year will be 5 and 6 year olds because children must be 5 by the start date.

    You see the discrepancy when the cut date is not in line with the start of school.
     
  8. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Feb 16, 2020

    It is a hard call. It is a good idea that you are getting an educational evaluation done for disabilities, especially going outside of the school.

    I have seen kids held back and thrive because of it. I've seen kids held back and continue to struggle. It all depends on the problem.

    I would try to get the school to work with you to hold off on the decision until you see what the testing shows. Also, supporting with tutors will help, but it may not fix the entire issue. I hate to say it, sometimes the tutorial support will hurt your child's chances of getting school support, but since you can't always depend on school support, it is often necessary.

    What type of additional support has the school been providing for your child since they realized your child is behind?
     
  9. Kelster95

    Kelster95 Companion

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    Feb 16, 2020

    When I taught K in a title school we only recommended retention if a student didn’t know all letters and letter sounds. It is much better to repeat in 1st when the support for intensive reading support is greater. Particularly with your daughter already being on the older side of her grade she could regress repeating K with kids who could be nearly 2 full years younger.
     
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  10. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    Feb 16, 2020

    Wow, this teacher must not have seen much or is real young. I have seen parents regret years later holding their children back while some don't regret it. Age is not just a number. A child who is a year or two above their peers may have a challenge. I have seen 10 year old 3rd graders along with those who are 8 because they were held back in K. They don't always fit in well.

    If it is a close call, I'd rather spend a lot of time getting the child tutored over the summer by the parent and/or a tutor then retention. It is your call and not an easy one to make. I wish you the best.
     
  11. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Feb 16, 2020

    This is the most recent data available (as of January 2016), apparently.

    “According to the most recent data available from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), in the 2010-2011 school year only 6 percent of kids started kindergarten at age 4, 42 percent of kids were between 5 and 5½, 43 percent were between 5½ and 6 years old — and more than 9 percent of kids starting kindergarten had already turned 6.”

    https://www.greatschools.org/gk/articles/redshirting-kindergarten/

    This means that 48% percent of students are between the ages of 4-5.5 years of age, inclusive, and 43% were between the ages of 5.5-6, inclusive. Note that only more than 9% had already turned already 6.

    This mathematically shows that the majority of kindergarteners are in the 4-5 year age range as relatively few are 6.
     
  12. CherryOak

    CherryOak Comrade

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    Feb 16, 2020

    She was five when she started. We are in February.
     
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  13. CherryOak

    CherryOak Comrade

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    Feb 16, 2020

    I would say investigate and then go with your gut. I want to trust the teacher's guidance. However, focus will not likely magically appear in a year. Stamina might, but that wasn't mentioned. Get your hands on some hard academic data. Handwriting is not what I would go by.
     
  14. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    This proves that K is also for 6 year olds. If 43% start at 5 1/2 to 6 then they will turn 6 during the school year. A child that starts in September at 5 1/4 will turn 6 by the time June arrives. Again a 6 year old in K. The only ones who will not be 6 by the time K is over is the 4 year old who starts in September and the 5 year 1, 2, 3 months old. So, in reality, K is for 5 and 6 year olds more than 4-5 year olds.

    So, K is not just for 4-5 as you assert. Not sure where majority comes into play. Your original point didn't say the majority were 4-5 year olds. Your surprise is that there were any children in K that turned 6. Your data shows that more than 9% start as 6 year olds, and 43% are on the high side of 5 or 6 INCLUSIVE. Meaning there are a fair number of 6 year olds. That is a far cry from none or even being surprised that a 6 year old might be in K.

    You will also see a different demographic in a district based on their cut date. Some districts will rarely have a 6 year old and others will have a fair percentage who turn 6 during K.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  15. sevenplus

    sevenplus Connoisseur

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    Futuremathsprof, many, many kindergartners turn 6 during the school year. You seemed to be implying ("this doesn't bode well") that because OP's daughter is already 6 that there's a problem.

    She started K at 5. She wasn't eligible to start the year prior.

    OP, I would just keep giving her support and reevaluate in May and even again in August.

    I do send retention letters home for some students who are working below grade level just in case they don't continue to progress in the spring.
     
  16. Rabbitt

    Rabbitt Connoisseur

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    Feb 16, 2020

    IMO...since she is already one of the oldest, working in Title1, and from a family working with her, do not hold her back. It is likely not the problem. Just keep reading. Come 3rd grade you may be looking into other issues, and you may not.
    Another thing to consider is her age all through middle school and high school. If she competes in a sport, she cannot turn 19 before the season and thus compete her senior year with friends. She will mature physically sooner. There are pros to this too such as leaving the house for the real world and taking the ACT. sim
    Keep us posted...but I advise no simply based on age. I have not heard the teacher's side of the story.
     
  17. Katie0923

    Katie0923 Rookie

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    Feb 16, 2020

    Thanks to everyone for your comments so far! We’d really like to figure out why she is having such difficulty in school so we can help her.
    To answer some of the other question, she can count to 100, recognizes a majority of the numbers and knows all of her colors and shapes.
    She is not immature for her age, she doesn’t interrupt class and plays well with others, helps when asked and has a best friend.
    The focus and paying attention part is regarding her participation in class. She does not repeat in the group when they are spelling out words together. When it is her turn for calendar which they do every day, she doesn’t know what to do and if she is called on in class she usually says she doesn’t know. I really think this may be an anxiety issue. She gets really nervous when she isn’t sure about something.
    One of the reasons I understood they were recommending holding back is due to her star reading test. She was showing as an emergent reader with a score of 507 and needs to be a transient reader which starts at 675. Another reason was journaling and her inability to write complete sentences on her own. By 1st grade she will need to start the year writing 5 sentences. Right now she can’t put her thoughts on paper unless someone is working through it with her. If anyone has any recommendations to help with this I’d appreciate it too!
    Her teacher has been teaching kindergarten for probably 20 years so is not new to teaching which is why I don’t feel comfortable going against her recommendation yet, but my gut is telling me it isn’t a good idea to hold her back.
     
  18. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Feb 16, 2020

    The issue, here, is that the daughter will be the oldest person most likely. This is not an outlier that a student would want to be a part of.

    If the daughter is held back, then she will turn 7 in November in the first term. That means she will be 8 as a first grader in the first term, too.

    No, I am saying it does not bode well for a student to repeat kindergarten and finish at nearly 8 years of age. The student would be nearly 20 by the time they finish high school.
     
  19. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    It is inferential. Please.
     
  20. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    And, no, the average age of a kindergartener is 5 years. I’m not interested in certain districts. I’m interested in the distribution of ALL US kindergarteners to see the true average age.

    My main concern is that the student will be bullied for being held back and ostracized for being an adult in high school nearing their twenties in the end.

    And the mathematics still holds. 4-year and 5-year olds are age ranges from 4 up to but not including 5 and 5 up to but not including 6, which the data supports, and hence, my initial assertion. I’m not interested in data points that lie outside the general trend. Exceptions rules do not make.

    That was my surprise because relatively few are 6, let alone 7.
     
  21. sevenplus

    sevenplus Connoisseur

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    Someone has to be the oldest. She isn't going to be bullied for being held back in K.
    This year I have 2 kindergartners who were retained. One turned 7 in November . I have no doubt that retention was the right choice for him.

    I don't know if retention is the right choice for the OP's daughter, but I wouldn't promote solely on age.

    My own son has an April birthday. I don't know that he's emotionally ready for K. If I don't send him next fall (he'll be 5), then I'll send him at 6, which means he'll turn 7 in K. He'd graduate from HS just after his 19th birthday.

    If the student is struggling in K, they may still be struggling by the end of 1st and facing the possibility of retention again. I'd rather have them be a little older than unsuccessful.
     
  22. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Is summer school not an option? I just hate it when students get bullied...
     
  23. sevenplus

    sevenplus Connoisseur

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    Possibly summer school is an option. I always recommend that for my students who are behind academically.

    I don't see bullying about retention in primary grades. Half the first graders show up in the K rooms on the first day of school because they don't realize first grade is different. We have to send them down to the first grade wing of the building.

    We don't retain tons of kids but there is not the social stigma attached when they are this young.

    I don't want to sound like I always think retention is the right choice, but when it is the right choice (to the best of our knowledge) I've seen it be very successful.

    And, as for age, my older son is in high school. He has a summer birthday and I sent him to K a month after he turned 5. He was fine with it then but now he complains about being one of the youngest in his class.

    I also see waiting to send a child to school as giving them the gift of an extra year of childhood. But that's another topic altogether, I think.
     
  24. Katie0923

    Katie0923 Rookie

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    Summer school is not an option that was offered but I intend to ask. We go to a private school. It is available at the public school but you cannot attend unless you attend public school.
    I’m also not concerned with bullying right now, it’s more about when she is turning 12 and most everyone else is 10 and kids then realize the difference. I assume she’ll then get that stigma of the kid who was held back. I hate to say it but that’s how it was in my school and I don’t think kids have gotten any nicer since then.
     
  25. RainStorm

    RainStorm Phenom

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    Feb 16, 2020

    Katie,
    Thank you for providing all the additional information. It really does help. Please know that February is typically the month the principal sends around a notice to all teachers saying "if you have any possible retentions, make sure you have had a retention meeting with the parent." That is usually what facilitates these uncomfortable meetings. Teachers have to dot their i's and cross their t's.

    I tend to agree with you. I would have a hard time retaining a child when she is improving in so many areas, and when she is on track in so many areas. (Counting to 100, etc, is right on target.) She may have issues later if she is significantly older than the others. However, I can see both sides (as can you) because you don't want her to fall behind and give up on herself.

    What you are describing with calendar time and saying "I don't know" to questions does sound like anxiety or just plain out shyness. As a teacher, if a student was doing this in my class, I would ask her to do the calendar with a buddy (who can do it without prompting) and have them take turns. At first, she might let the other child do most of the work, but with this as a continued practice, she will grow more confident.

    To deal with the "I don't know" thing you are talking about, as a teacher, I would say to her "Susie, in a few minutes, I'm going to ask you about zebras, so listen carefully to the story." Then I'd read a story about zebras, stopping to "think aloud" as I read. Then, I'd pause as I was reading, and say "What color are zebras?" Of course, other children's hands will pop up, and if Susie's hand doesn't pop up, and I'd call on them. One is sure to say "black and white."

    Great answer! I'd read another sentence or two, and then I'd look at Susie and say "Susie, I've forgotten. What color are zebras?" If she answers, great -- I'd give her lots of praise. If she says "I don't know," I'd walk over to her with the book in hand, and show her the picture of the zebra and ask again, "What color is a zebra?" (Even if the other children are shouting out the answer by now, I'd wait for Susie to answer.) If she still says "I don't know" then I'd say "Susie, would you please pick a friend to help you answer the question?" It may take her a while to pick, but I'd be patient and wait, and encourage her until she picks somebody. Maybe she'll pick Billy. Billy will say "Black and white" and then I'd look back to Susie and say "Is a zebra black and white, Susie?" Even if all she does is nod her head, I'd give her lots of praise (and I'd thank Billy for being such a good friend and helping.) I'd still try to get a verbal answer out of Susie -- say it with me, Susie "Zebras are black and white." You have to take baby steps with anxiety. Repeated successes lead to greater confidence.

    Or I'd have Susie sit next to me while I was reading the text, and I'd saying "What color is the zebra?" and I'd ask Susie to point to the zebra while I called on a student to answer. When the student answered, I'd say "Susie? Is that right?" There are lots of approaches.

    My point is this -- answering when called upon is a skill she can learn just as easily in first grade as in kindergarten. While her STAR score is low for continuing on to first grade, you can continue to work on that at home this school year, and over the summer. Yes, she will be one of the lowest readers in first grade. That is a given right now. You know what? Flowers bloom when they are ready. There is nothing that says "Oh, I'm in the 3rd quarter of kindergarten, I should be a transient reader!" Some flowers bloom early, some flowers bloom right when you expect them, and some bloom a bit later -- it is all part of what makes the world beautiful. You don't try to force the blooms -- you just keep providing good soil, plenty of water, and a little fertilizer. She will bloom. She will.

    My brother taught himself to read at age 3. Not baby stuff -- he picked up the Wall Street Journal and starting reading the headlines out loud. Incredible, yes? I on the other hand, did not learn to read until the end of first grade. I was the last child in my class to learn to read. I was determined -- but I just wasn't ready yet.

    But reading was always a part of my family's life, and once I learned to read, I absorbed every book I could. By 5th grade, I had the highest standardized reading score not just in my school, or in my district, but in the entire state. Two subsequent reading scores showed I was able to read on a second year of college level with comprehension. By 8th grade, I had read every single book on the school district's recommended reading list -- for junior high AND high school. There were hundreds of books on that list. I always wondered, what would have happened if I had felt pressured to read before I was ready? I would have had so much anxiety. I would have been so stressed. I surely would not have had the love of reading that I grew up with. I think I would have learned to hate reading, and to hate books.

    Keep working with her. Tell her teacher that you share her concerns, but that you aren't ready to hold her back -- that you want to wait for the educational testing to be completed before you can even consider making a decision. And always remember, it is YOUR decision. Every child is different, and you know your child best. If she's still having issues at the end of first grade, you can always reconsider retention. But the anxiety issues she's having aren't going to go away overnight, and they can be dealt with as easily in first grade as in kindergarten.

    Good luck, no matter what you decide. Keep on helping your child to love reading. Make it fun. She will bloom when she's ready if you keep giving her support. Best wishes.
     
  26. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Feb 16, 2020

    Absolutely beautiful response.
     
  27. waterfall

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    Feb 17, 2020

    My gut instinct was to trust what the teacher said until I got to the part about your daughter's age. I would never recommend retention for someone who is already on the older end of the class. I've seen it work wonders for kids who are the youngest end and just weren't developmentally ready for the expectations. In the end even with being retained, they are still a "normal" age for the grade level. That wouldn't be the case for your daughter.

    Even if some academic benefits are achieved, the social/emotional issues that would cause wouldn't be worth it, IMO. Even if bullying doesn't happen, being 2 years older than other kids in the class throughout her schooling is going to cause a whole bunch of internalized issues that are NOT worth some extra academic time in K. A few years ago a parent retained her child in 2nd against my recommendation (district policy is that it's a parent choice). She was convinced it would "take awhile for the other kids to notice." Yeah, they noticed on the first day and the small academic gains that child made were not worth the emotional stress for him. Now his behavior ramps up 10x every 4th quarter because he is so anxious about being retained again.

    If focus/attention is the issue, that's something to speak to your pediatrician about, especially if you're seeing those issues at home as well. If your daughter was on the younger end of the class that could just be immaturity, but since she's not it's likely a deeper issue. You can also seek out private OT services to assist with the handwriting.

    I'd also wonder if the private school is the best choice. IME private schools don't typically have a lot of resources for struggling students. Public school would be able to provide interventions during the school day or specialized services if she qualifies for them.
     
  28. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Feb 17, 2020

    Future,

    Not to belabor the point, but your assertion was wrong based on the link you provided to the NCES.

    Even according to the data YOU supplied, very few children are 4 when they start kindergarten.

    "Six percent of kindergartners started their first year of kindergarten before they turned 5 years old,"

    Six percent. Six. That is even fewer than the 9% that start K for the first time when they are six.

    You proved what I said. You were incorrect. K is not for 4-5 year olds. K is for 5-6 year olds typically with the few EXCEPTIONS who enter at 4 and become 5 along the way. The 6 year old is not the exception. Many K students turn six during the school year. Most often the majority. I agree the 7 year old is the exception, but that student in almost every circumstance has been retained.
     
  29. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Please explain how this particular response adds to the OP's original thread?
     
  30. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Again, the average starting age of kindergarteners is 5, not 5.5.

    You are being overly difficult, as per normal. I said that most kindergarteners fall in the 4-year and 5-year range, which they do. Relatively few fall in the six-year range. End of story.

    Only in the past five years have districts increased the starting age so more students start at 5. The median starting is still 5. If a student starts at 5, then odds are they will finish before they are 6. Notice they don’t say 5.5 years.

    Typing “average age of kindergarteners” on Google shows this:

    “5 years old

    Historically, the starting age for kindergarten has varied widely. In the past five years, both states and districts have pushed the minimum age to start kindergarten up so that more and more kids are at least 5 years old when they start school. (See minimum Kindergarten entrance ages for all states as of 2014.) Jan 5, 2020”
     
  31. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    I was countering a2z’s flippant response, which is typical.
     
  32. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Some simple math:

    If we assume an approximately normal starting age distribution with a median of 5 years and a standard deviation of 0.5 years, then 50% start at 5 years of age or lower, 68% of students are between 4.5 and 5.5 years when they start, and 95% are between 4 and 6 years when they start. That means that only 2.5% of students start at 6 years of age or higher, which is the same proportion of students who start out at less than 4 years of age, which doesn’t make any sense mathematically to assume.

    Now, this also means that 34% of students are between the age of 5 and 5.5 years when they start, so 84% of students are less than 5.5 years when they start and 47.5% of students are between the age of 4 and 5 years of age when they start.

    And according to the following study:

    “Of the redshirted students, the majority were born in the summer months (>70%). “

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2332858415590800

    Most students are born in the following months, which means they will finish out the year before their age increases:

    “August had the most births each year from 1990 to 2006 except for six years (1992, 1993, 1997, 1998, 2003 and 2004) when it was edged out by July, according to National Center for Health Statistics. Historically, the sweltering, late-summer months are when obstetricians witness an increase in the arrival of newborns.”

    In 2006 (the most recent data as of 2010), there were 4,265,555 newborns and 1,701,564 newborns born in January-May. If we assume this number is relatively constant, then that means that more than half (2,563,991 or 60.11%) won’t reach their next birthday by the end of kindergarden.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/32728-baby-month-is-almost-here-.html

    Exceptions rules do NOT make. The average age range is 4 years and up to but not including 6 (4-year and 5-year), as I said all along. QED

    Again, I am going by the majority, not a plurality of a minority of students who are 6 and above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  33. sevenplus

    sevenplus Connoisseur

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    Where your math breaks down is not considering cut-off dates for enrollment. The LATEST cutoff I've ever heard of for turning 5 is Dec. 31. However most districts have Sept. 30 or SOONER as their cutoff. Assuming school starts in mid August, ZERO kindergartners are 4 years, 6 months at the start of school.

    In my district, school starts the last week of August and students must be 5 by 9/30. So the youngest students are 4 years and almost 11 months.

    The original data you quoted said 6% are 4 and 9% are 6. That means 85% are 5. Of those, any who are 5 years, 3 months will be turning 6 during the school year. That would typically be well over half of the students.

    I really don't understand your math here.

    I started teaching K 20 years ago. Most of my students are 5 and turn 6 during the school year. I'm not sure why you're trying to prove this is not usually the case.

    Sorry, OP, for the thread hijack.
     
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  34. otterpop

    otterpop Phenom

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    Your daughter sounds to me to be very typical for her age, a bit behind but obviously she’s growing. I would not label her as terribly behind, from what you’ve provided. However, I don’t teach kindergarten or know your daughter.

    You mention her star reading test. Any idea what percentile she’s at?
     
  35. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Feb 17, 2020

    Thank you, Sevenplus.
     
  36. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    You are correct that you do not understand the mathematics. Since you said that you understand the math, could you please brush up on the empirical rule. An educator should know this

    Where to start, why not here?

    “The original data you quoted said 6% are 4 and 9% are 6. That means 85% are 5“

    This is not true at all. This is assuming the data is discrete, which it clearly is not. It is continuous, so this is not accurate. Not even close.

    Try again.
     
  37. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    LOL. Overly difficult for pointing out the data you supplied refutes your assertion? I don't think so. Why are you stooping to personal attacks? Overly difficult, flippant, etc.


    Yet your original data actually refutes this comment. 6% start before age 5. 9% start at age 6. Meaning most fall in the 5-6 year range rather than the 4-5 year range.

    100 - 15 = 85% 5 year olds '
    4-5 year range = 85 + 6 = 91%
    5-6 year range = 85 + 9 = 96%

    Now, unless we have changed the meaning of English from the beginning of this post to the end "most" means more. Now, unless you have some really "new math" going on for you or you plan to use different data than that supplied originally to support your position (which I see you are trying to do), 96 > 91. Therefore most students are in the 5-6 range. Even more supportive of the range is that the majority of students will be 6 by the end of K. So, the idea that K is for 4-5 year olds is inaccurate which is what I said originally. 5-6 is the most common range.

    You are correct. It seems the data supplied shows that 4 is more the exception than 6.

    I also apologize, OP. I was really just trying to explain to future why it isn't odd for a student to be 6 in K. In fact, by the end of the year most are. So, your daughter isn't the odd one out this year, but I do understand your concerns for next year given that she is an older one in the class now.
     
  38. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Your anecdotal experience does not speak to the majority. You should know that, too.

    I very clearly demonstrated that most students (more than 60%h have birthdays from June-December. This, their age will not increase from Jan-May. It will only increase thereafter. When they start, that will be their age until the next academic year, statistically speaking.
     
  39. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Wow. Because this is how percentages work.

    “100 - 15 = 85% 5 year olds '
    4-5 year range = 85 + 6 = 91%
    5-6 year range = 85 + 9 = 96%”

    I’m beginning to see why the students I inherit at my private school are the way they are.
     
  40. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    People, can we get off this silly discusion of kindergarten children's ages and move on to actually helping a poster with serious concerns about their child?
     
  41. sevenplus

    sevenplus Connoisseur

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    WHAT? I'm quoting YOU and you're telling me in wrong?

    From your post upthread:
    "in the 2010-2011 school year only 6 percent of kids started kindergarten at age 4, 42 percent of kids were between 5 and 5½, 43 percent were between 5½ and 6 years old — and more than 9 percent of kids starting kindergarten had already turned 6.”

    I said that exact thing (except I combined all 5-year-olds into one group and now you're insulting me?

    Nevermind. It's not that important to me. Carry on.
     
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