Kind of shocked.....

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by Tired Teacher, Mar 12, 2020.

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  1. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Devotee

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    Yeah, that is all we can do. Our best! It sounds like some districts/states do not have enough devices though for kids to check out. That has got to be tough!
     
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  2. Tired Teacher

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    Good idea! However, I have a feeling, a couple of students will just facetime. I have to keep all options open for communication because I really hope to keep as many as possible connected to school. My cell phone number is not that old, so I can easily change the number in 4 months. :)
     
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  3. Tired Teacher

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    Wow! I wish our school was a bit less mandating certain things! It sounds like yours is letting you do what you can w/out undo stress. Good for them!
     
  4. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Functionally yes. That's not how it's described on paper, but everyone is being paid full-time (or whatever it was for each employee) with teachers teaching optionally from home (that's where I am) and the others rotating in as they are on call.

    It means various staff members being rotated about for lunches and "holding down the fort" and functionally means admin, lunch ladies, and custodians. For my school, anyway.
     
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  5. Tired Teacher

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    I am for this 100% if you can. We just had this conversation about a housekeeper. A lot of us are keeping people other than family out of our homes because IT is here. But, I thought it would be a really good idea for us to pay any helpers without requiring them to come until this blows over.
    I am glad we all agreed. Some of these people really are just barely getting by and can't afford this. Especially if the person has been a good worker in the past....It gives them a paid break which they usually do not get.
     
  6. Tired Teacher

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    Unlike normal, I am reading backwards. What 1,000 are you speaking of? Maybe to help pay for our internet and phones?
     
  7. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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  8. Tired Teacher

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    I think this law is BS. I had a fairly low income ( I'd have qualified for about any program.) when my kids were young. Still I got up in the morning and cooked oatmeal, eggs, or something substantial for their breakfast. I was a really young parent too. Then I packed their lunches.
    My husband took the car at work. I remember walking and taking a city bus to get school supplies on sale. I even considered it a fun outing! My kids did not have the fanciest stuff, but they had what they needed.
    We have raised generations of people( fortunately, not all ) who do not even attempt to take care of their kids.
    The more we do for them, the more they expect. There are signs in National Parks that warn: Please do not feed the bears. It makes them become dependent.
    I am guessing this might irk some people, but we have gone too far in our society. I do believe in helping the elderly, truly disabled, and women with kids. But we need to help women ( train them) and help them get back on their feet. Not make them dependent.
    I started noticing a few years ago, our brightest around here are not repopulating. It is a trend w/ a lot of young couples. Then some people are having tons of kids, not thinking, and expecting society and the school to do everything for them.
     
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  9. YoungTeacherGuy

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  10. RainStorm

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    I have to say this. I hear all this about "schools will loan students a chrome book" and "internet companies will give free internet access and hot spots" and that if parents make their child a priority, their education will be fine. But here is the reality.

    First, if your power has been shut off since before this all happened, what good is internet connectivity? If you have no transportation to the hotspots, what good are they? If your family is "housing insecure" (as our many of our public school students) it means you spend one night here, and another night there, maybe sleep in the car a night, maybe with your cousins for a couple of nights, etc. This makes it very hard to keep up with school supplies and a Chromebook. You may be bouncing between cheap hotel rooms, homeless shelters, and split up from your parents several nights a week at various relative's houses. It is hard to keep that internet access as you move around, or to even arrange it in so many places, and it is incredibly hard to secure the school-provided Chromebook in a homeless shelter, flop house, or in a constant variety of relative and family friends houses, when you have no control over the situation. Things get lost, things get stolen, things get hocked for drug money for addicted parents...this is many of our children's reality.

    For our students whose parent or parents are addicted to drugs or alcohol, there is very little protection or supervision going on. Half the time it is the older child watching all the younger siblings in a one room apartment, while the parent is passed out in the middle of the floor. All of this unemployment and uncertainty certainly isn't helping. Authorities keep saying "internet for all" but how does an 11 year old arrange that when their only parent is so drugged out they can't even see straight? It isn't possible.

    Drug addicts get worse when times are hard -- people who have been straight and sober for years backslide from the pressure -- they get more desperate -- and they make more desperate decisions that are rarely in the best interest of their children. They say kids can get the free lunch either at schools or delivered by the school bus -- but when the parent is high on drugs, who takes or sends the student to go get the free meal? It takes planning ahead, and addicts are not good at that. Sorry, a kindergartener doesn't have the ability to do this. Neither does a first grader.

    Abusive parents, who are now overstressed by having to directly care for their children during the day, and for longer periods each day -- it makes the abuse worse, and there aren't the usual "watching eyes" that come from school officials seeing these kids each day. There is no one to call social services when the parent get so stressed out and takes it out on the kids.

    And another major problems for our kids, is the chaotic and overcrowded home. When 5 kids and their mom and her boyfriend all share a one bedroom apartment, how does anyone get a good night's sleep? How does anyone do school work? You have toddlers running, who are often not well supervised or behaved, throwing things down, spilling things, slamming the keys on the now broken school-issued Chromebook. They yell and screech, and scream randomly, as all toddlers do, but there is no place to get away from them. A drunk parent and boyfriend sitting on the couch with the TV blaring hardly helps the situation. Add the toddlers screaming, and 3 school aged kids all trying to figure out a space to work on their online school work. Internet access for all sure doesn't fix that problem.

    Please don't tell me that all of this is fine, because it isn't. I agree that teachers and administrators are doing a fabulous job of doing an impossible task with grace and determination. But we can't forget those kids that almost fall through the safety net when school is in session full-time. Where are they now? Who is watching over them? It is not okay for them. And learning is not really their top life priority right now -- nor should it be. Surviving the day is. I think all administrators, politicians, and teachers need to stay mindful of that.
     
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  11. whizkid

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    Had a former coworker who lives in a big city that told me kids are just hanging out and walking the streets and I believe him. Parents could care less.
     
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  12. Tired Teacher

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    True, even in a smaller area! I think people should have to pass a test to be a parent. Not really, but they need to take responsibility for their kids.
     
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  13. Backroads

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    I am approaching all of this from a perspective of "I'll do what I can within what's been expected of me, then it's out of my hands,"

    I'd love if it I had assurance I could have all my students engaged in an exception online learning scenario not unlike the classroom. Chromebooks have been offered as needed. The internet companies are offering service.

    But I have an age group I don't trust to get online without help. I am not able to require live classes as I have kids at daycare, kids waiting in line with other siblings to use the computer. I can't guarantee valid assessment.

    So I offer the basics, the big stuff I would guarantee for a school day. And it's brief. I teach as succinctly as I can. I give examples, but I'm hoping they practice.

    I try to post some fun extras, some science lessons. I showed them how I'm making my eggshell seedlings while talking about seeds.

    I wonder if I dare do more or if that would be overwhelming.

    I'm truly hoping they're all a bunch of kid stuff, from watching cartoons to building tree forts.

    I'm hoping their families are supporting their education and at least reading to them.

    But otherwise I am letting it go the best I can. We are not in the classroom, I am not going to cry over it. I'm going to trust this crop of students will more or less be where the other student are next year, it being what it is.

    But I can't make my students or their families do anything.
     
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  14. futuremathsprof

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    You are a vice principal at an elementary school and so that is to be expected. I say this not as a slight on you, but rather to emphasize that elementary students are usually wonderful and better behaved — not always — but they are generally nicer to deal with. At the high-school level, we have had students: who brought air-soft guns to campus with the intention of shooting other students, who brought switch-blades, who physically accosted staff members, who sexually assaulted staff members (myself included), who brought drugs on campus, etc. This can happen at any school, regardless of the socioeconomic status of its attendees. Then, once we ramped up security, both with the security wall and armed guards several years back, that all changed.

    Nearly all of the aforementioned students were expelled or indefinitely suspended and/or had charges pressed against them. They were severely punished. I’m very glad my principals and vice principals went off on them. They don’t do it normatively, but there is a time and place. When someone is mean and nasty, then every option is on the table.

    Being nice all the time and politically correct is the reason why students in public schools don’t change their behaviors and get away with practically “murder.”

    The vast majority of students (90%) are respectful and well-behaved and positively wonderful. They don’t give us any problems and we are respectful to them. The other 10%, though, have everything coming to them and deserve to be punished.

    And mathematically speaking, if one parent is working and is able to pay the bills, then if the other parent works and makes $27,000 maximally, it makes sense that they could afford to pay $7,500 in tuition. If they could pay the bills before the other parent worked, then it doesn’t make sense that they suddenly cannot after making more money. For example, let’s say the family made $40,000 before the wife or husband took up the minimum-wage job. Well, the family would then make $40,000 + $27,000 or $67,000 (gross). Now, subtract $7,500, so they have $67,000 - $7500 or $59,500 left over. This puts them $19,500 ahead after they got the minimum-wage job.
     
  15. Backroads

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    But what about the parents making said monies with multiple children? Sure, that pricing works out for only children.

    In my state, private schools are considered pricey if they're over $500 a month, and our cost of living is getting pretty high.
     
  16. whizkid

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    My district doesn't have any devices for kids to check out and anything short of a donation from a business or a grant from the state will not be able to serve the less fortunate kids. The digital divide will be on full display now in this country.
     
  17. whizkid

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    Those kids without will have to rely on homework packets and we have to hope that they have an involved parent who will support them and that's not abundant in this area.
     
  18. Missy

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    Have you ever taught in an elementary school? Your generalizations are staggering,
     
  19. futuremathsprof

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    Okay, let’s say the hypothetical family has three children. 3*$7,500 = $22,500. They still wouldn’t have touched their original $40,000 at that point, do you see?
     
  20. swansong1

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    Are we still talking about California? Where the median house price is well into the hundred thousands? Where rents are staggering? So, what school do the parents send their other children to if they get an extra job to send one of their children to your school?

    All those things you say some of your students "used" to do until your administration started hitting back...many of us have had those same experiences in elementary school.

    Maybe it's time for you to spend some time outside your cocoon and see how most of us experience our teaching jobs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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  21. futuremathsprof

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    I confess my ignorance, but you’re telling me that 4th-6th grader’s habitually engage in the acts I described above? I am very skeptical of that. I can see them cursing and maybe throwing things or getting into pathetic squabbles, but bringing guns to school? Committing sexual assault? Really?
     
  22. futuremathsprof

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    And please see my above post if the family has multiple kids. The math still checks out.
     
  23. YoungTeacherGuy

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    I’ll take a brief moment to educate you on elementary student issues since you’re ill-informed and have never taught K-6 kiddos. This school year alone (well, what we’ve had of it), I’ve dealt with lots of self-harm issues, fighting, “room clears” (teacher and students have to leave the classroom due to a student being physically or verbally abusive/violent), sexual harassment, and cyberbullying—just to name a few of the problems I’ve handled. It’s not sunshine and rainbows in elementary, contrary to what you may believe.
     
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  24. futuremathsprof

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    What are the frequency of these occurrences? If you had to put a percentage on it, what percentage of K-6 students engage in such acts?

    If you look at the statistics nationally, high school students commit these offenses at much high rates.

    To demonstrate, “A 1998 study by the National Center for Education Statistics found that approximately 21 percent of high schools, 19 percent of middle schools, and 4 percent of elementary schools experienced at least one serious violent crime (primarily aggravated assaults) per year, including crimes committed by nonstudents.”

    They also said, “
    Nonfatal Student Victimization—Student Reports

    From 1992 to 2017, the total victimization rate and rates of specific crimes—thefts, violent victimizations, and serious violent victimizations2—declined for students ages 12–18, both at school and away from school

    The rate of serious violent victimization against students ages 12–18 was lower at school than away from school in most years between 1992 and 2008. Between 2009 and 2015 and in 2017, there was no statistically significant difference between the rate of serious violent victimizations at school and away from school. The serious violent victimization rates reported in 2017 were 4 victimizations per 1,000 students at school and 6 victimizations per 1,000 students away from school.

    Violence and Crime at School—Principal Reports

    During the 2015–16 school year, 79 percent of public schools recorded that one or more incidents of violence, theft, or other crimes had taken place, amounting to 1.4 million crimes. This translates to a rate of 28 crimes per 1,000 students enrolled in 2015–16. During the same school year, 47 percent of schools reported one or more of the specified crimes to the police, amounting to 449,000 crimes, or 9 crimes per 1,000 students“

    https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=49

    And I guarantee you that a room clear would never happen at my school. If a student became violent, they would get decked or detained by security. Period. And parents are informed when they enroll just what lengths security will go through to protect other students and staff.
     
  25. Backroads

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    Still a lot of money they may not necessarily have available to spend.

    I don't know your local economics, but it just doesn't sound like the school is "cheap".
     
  26. whizkid

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    They're talking $2,000 for adults and $1,000 for children. The old proposal called for only $1,000. Heard a reporter say that won't even get you a one bedroom apartment in NYC. D*mn.
     
  27. RainStorm

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    futuremathsprof,

    Your post shows that you are completely out-of-touch with the reality of elementary school. And the more people try to nicely point that out to you, the more you try to justifying your incredibly naïve statements that you are trying to present as fact.

    In a typical (low income) elementary school, the students over all are not all "wonderful" nor are they "better behaved." They are not "nicer to deal with." Your statements show that you are completely out-of-touch with a typical public school.

    In a typical week in 2nd grade, I had at least 3 room clears. How often in high school each week do you have to evacuate all but one of your students and your self, and have them wait in the hall (where you can see them) while standing next to the window in the door, so you can see the child inside your class who is throwing chairs, knocking over desks, tearing up all the posters on the wall, and destroying the other children's work? This is the protocol we are required by policy to follow. We have no choice in the matter. We stand there with all of our other kids -- they are getting no instruction as they stand in the hall, as we wait for the emergency removal team to come in, legally restrain the child and remove him. We all get to stand there and watch is happen. Then we return into the destroyed room, and WE have to clean it up so we can return to work. According to restorative justice, we are supposed to make the child who did this clean it up. But he is still being legally restrained and "calmed" and we can't go with class, while all the books are strewn around the room, the chairs are tossed all over the place, etc. So we straighten and make the best of it, so we can get back to learning. We loose an average of 20 minutes of instruction each time this happens. As I said at the beginning of the post, this typically happens about 3 times a week.

    We get back to learning. It is computer time -- but the child who was removed has damaged two of the computers to the point they won't work. So two children have no computer to do their mandatory computer learning program. The teacher will get a notice from the district that she has not met the required time for each student to be on this program according to the weekly goals, and will be required to respond in writing as to why, along with copies of the incident report and follow up paperwork. Those all have to be done by the end of the day -- can't leave until they are done.

    About one hour later, the student who just destroyed the room is returned to the room without a word. You see the child is classified as behaviorally disabled, and it is against the law to punish a child for a behavior that is part of his or her disability. So the child is returned to the classroom with no additional discipline applied.

    You mentioned air soft guns -- elementary kids smuggle those into schools all the time! And pocket knives, and all kinds of other inappropriate things. High school has no monopoly on class-disrupting behaviors. High school students, unlike elementary school students, have a more advanced ability to control themselves and to live up to socially-accepted behaviors. Second grade students, who have only been in school for 2-3 years at that point do not have this knowledge and understanding of socially-acceptable norms. They lack the ability to control emotions they don't even understand.

    Fighting? Happens in elementary school. Cursing, yep. Stealing? Check. Bullying? Oh yeah. It all happens at all levels. No one level has a monopoly.

    I hear you in post after post claiming what a great job your school is doing, and how they high schools have so many more issues to deal with, and frankly, I think (and this is just my opinion) that you are showing your ignorance, and your privilege -- and frankly, you come across as arrogant and misinformed. The "procedures" you claim work so well in your school, are out-and-out illegal in public schools -- so comparing them is futile. The ones that aren't illegal are certainly against district policy in almost every case.

    You keep talking about how people can afford to send their kids to a school like yours. That is a ridiculous claim. Low income families, no matter how many jobs their parent (or parents) work simply do not have $5,000+ per year in disposable income. The parents in most lower income and middle class schools, do not even have 2 months worth of expenses as savings. At least 60% of Americans do not have a single months rent and expenses in their savings account. They live paycheck to paycheck, and each month have to decide which bills they will be delinquent in paying, because they can't even cover their basic monthly expenses. And heaven forbid a real emergency come up, because it will bankrupt them, cause them to have their car repossessed, cause them to be evicted, cause them to have their utilities shut off, etc.

    It certainly would be nice if every family could afford to provide the kind of education we all dream about to their child. Reality is, they can't -- no matter how many jobs they work, no matter how much they love their children, no matter how much they want the best for their children -- it isn't going to happen.

    You are being incredibly naïve and ill-informed to keep making these outlandish statements.
     
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  28. Tired Teacher

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    Wow! I am so surprised as I thought most schools had Chromebooks or laptops for the kids once they hit 3rd grade and up. I have heard of inner city schools that don't have much, but figured federal law had something to do w/ making sure schools had technology.

    That is awful! The school I came from years ago even had massive technology for the times. I wonder if someone couldn't do 1 of those type of pages like Go Fund Me where rich people donate to schools to get them. I had never heard the words: digital divide before. But, wow! Yeah! That is not right that those kids don't have access to technology.
    A friend just called me from Nebraska and said her district where she is staying cancelled school until the end of the year and that the teachers are doing no online or school programs at all. She's retired from here,,so doesn't know the details of if they'll even get paid. I don't even know how that could even be legal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  29. whizkid

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    Well the thing is that we have Chromebooks, but they don't get loaned out and we only have like 50.

    As far as pay, teachers are under contract so the districts better not start that "pay talk".
     
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  30. Tired Teacher

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    Who is they and why are they giving everyone money? I don't get regular news here...lol

    Some1 on here has to know the name of the place where you put your educational needs on the page and people buy stuff for your classroom or school. At this time, I think someone would donate them if you asked..
    The district needs to loan the 50 out and get some more.
     
  31. whizkid

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    Here, the kids have to somehow continue to get grades. From what I'm hearing, the kids will have to turn in the work via parents to get grades. Also, grades still have to be finalized for kids to graduate (whether they'll have an actual ceremony is another story).
     
  32. whizkid

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    Government officials are finalizing the final number on the upcoming stimulus checks. Some say the income limit will be $65,000 and some say $75,000.
     
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  33. futuremathsprof

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    You’re missing the point. They only had $40,000 to begin with. They probably wouldn’t be able to afford it without getting a second job. However, if the other spouse picked up a minimum-wage job in CA (making an additional $27,000/year), then it would become mathematically tenable for them, even if they sent their hypothetical three children to my private school. They would still come out ahead as their original income would not be affected.

    To further drive my point home, let’s say all I have is $40 in my wallet and I have my eyes set on some fancy widget in a major department store (for about $23 after taxes, but that is much too steep for my *current budget*). As I exit my car, I find $23 on the ground and I search around for its rightful owner, but there is no one around in the parking lot. Thus, I decide to spend $23 to buy the item and, lo and behold, I still have my original $40. I’m back to where I started and now I have that fancy item I wanted and I’m now benefiting from having it. Do you see?
     
  34. futuremathsprof

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    I think the data and articles I quoted speak for themselves. Elementary schools have the lowest amount of violent disturbances or disruptions. This has consistently been the case for many years.
     
  35. Tired Teacher

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    We have had guns, drugs, and fights, sexual harassments ( pretty major events) and all out insanity here at times. There are kids who smear their poop all over the bathroom walls several times a month until they are usually caught. It has happened the last 4 yrs w/different culprits.
    I have seen a kid destroy a classroom and everything in it. I have known 6th graders who are sexually active and you have to be careful to make sure they are not "hooking up" in a certain place where kids have been caught in the act in the past.
    I think most K-4th graders are precious, but you get holy terrors at times too. I still would not like to teach JR High because to me they have smart mouths. ( I might seriously end up in jail w/jr high kids because I don't have the tolerance for that age group.).
    Oh, also elementary is the age that you 1st have to tell some of these parents that their perfect little angel is not so perfect. You can only imagine the 1st time they hear it. It is almost always the sole fault of the teacher and some of these parents can be very protective and vindictive.
    By about 7th grade, I'd think parents would have more of a grip on the fact their child is not a saint. I know many still don't accept it. I think every grade level has its pros and cons. It just depends on each person's tolerance for that level.
    Oh, I would have loved to have security at our school, but we don't as a district. Admin avoids dealing w/ issues so teachers have to.
    Something else about the stats....elementary around here is infamous for "covering things up." Especially discipline problems...IDK if other areas are like that or not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  36. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Mar 22, 2020

    In CA, I would have legal recourse to have the child or children permanently removed from the classroom (in accordance with the newest 2020 law):

    SEC. 2.
    Section 48900 of the Education Code is amended to read:

    48900.
    A pupil shall not be suspended from school or recommended for expulsion, unless the superintendent of the school district or the principal of the school in which the pupil is enrolled determines that the pupil has committed an act as defined pursuant to any of subdivisions (a) to (r), inclusive:

    (a) (1) Caused, attempted to cause, or threatened to cause physical injury to another person.
    (2) Willfully used force or violence upon the person of another, except in self-defense.

    ...

    (f) Caused or attempted to cause damage to school property or private property.

    ...

    (i) Committed an obscene act or engaged in habitual profanity or vulgarity.”

    As per sections (f) and (i), the teacher and principal on site would be legally justified to have the violent student suspended and/or expelled. Quod erat demonstradum (QED): thus, it is proved.

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=48900.&lawCode=EDC

    Also, “3) Are there any exceptions written into the bill?
    Yes. Under SB 419, students could still be suspended for violence and also for bringing a weapon or illegal drugs to school.”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kc...efiance-school-suspension-california/28906359

    Please refer to page of Section 48900.4 (at the bottom of page 4) and Section 48900.5 (at the top of page 5:

    https://www.gusd.net/cms/lib/CA01000648/Centricity/Domain/58/EC_§48900.pdf

    If I were the teacher, I would make it my life’s mission to ensure that the hooligan/ruffian was removed post haste. Legally, I am allowed to do that and I would do exactly that, even if it meant going over the principal’s head if they didn’t have the courage to do it. The law is clearly on my side and I will NEVER stand for violence or stupid theatrics in any classroom I am charged with overseeing. Not now. Not ever in a public school or private.

    Thank you, that’s all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  37. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Oh. My. God. Such disgusting and disgraceful behavior, especially in pupils so young! What is happening with today’s youth?

    We had a kid who kept smearing his poop all over the walls, but he was a high school sophomore!!! We were furious — the janitorial staff even more so — and when we finally caught him (thankfully!) he received one of the harshest punishments ever administered. He was suspended for five days and received zeros in all of his classes, but that was only the first part. The second part of his punishment was much worse, in my opinion. He was then barred from attending *any* school function or field trip for the remainder of his stay at the high school. That meant he couldn’t go to the Six Flags, he couldn’t go to Universal Studios, he couldn’t go to *any* school rallies thereafter, or participate in any dances, etc, and when he was a senior, he could not go on the senior trip or attend prom or go to grad night. All he was allowed to do was to go to graduation and attend his classes. I felt bad for him actually because he ruined high school experience because of it, but he smeared his poop on the walls almost a dozen times...
     
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  38. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Devotee

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    I agree with you here. About 80% of the kids can be dealt with respectfully and will learn here. Some have their "disabilities" used as an excuse for bad behavior. If you mention anything the kid did wrong, you must have been the 1 to have done something wrong.....maybe you don't understand the disability...…….nope! Probably the majority of the kids we have that are like that have learned they can get away with it. It is the sped, P/C, and the P goes along w/ it.
     
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  39. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Devotee

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    Mar 22, 2020

    Man, your school has some strong backing! Our janitors get so poed too. I think the kid should be made to clean it all up, but nope! They say it is against the law. It is that kid's poop and I do not see why a janitor couldn't "oversee the clean up." We are not even allowed to use natural consequences. I still do though every chance I get....lol quietly! ;)
     
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  40. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Mar 22, 2020

    Absolutely correct!
     
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