Discussion in 'General Education' started by Leaborb192, Jul 7, 2016.
Aug 1, 2016
I'm not at all opposed to the questions being a two way street, but feel that the way you described your actions seems more adversarial than any date I ever went on, thankfully.
Just to chime in. I don't think you even get the full picture when interviewing what a school is like. There are schools that will try and sell you on their best aspects, and candidates will do the same. But until you are actually teaching in the school do you learn what they are all about.
Some schools will do a bait and switch and sell you down the river, some schools are totally upfront. Some schools hold a reputation for being good but really aren't because of bad admin. Some of these things you can't predict based on an interview and some you can. You really just don't know.
I think about where I work, and a lot of people scoff at it because it's the Bronx and in the poorest neighborhood in all of NYC. But there's more to the school than its location. I have fair admin and great support. Tons of resources and a staff that is pushing to get these students to achieve their highest potential. The admin sold me on the school with this as the end goal. Sure there's tons of teacher turnover, but that comes with a high needs school in a "bad location". Most leave to teach in the burbs.
I think about the first school I worked in, similar neighborhood and students but really terrible admin and no support for teachers. That P sold me a pack of lies and a bunch of other stuff. That school is constantly in the news after I left for various things you wouldn't have imagined coming from an elementary school. Maybe I was naive back then but there's no way I would have known this about the school until I worked there.
So as much as you are interviewing them you really can't get a grasp of a school until you are on the inside. It's like they say about driving, you don't learn how to drive until after your road test. Same goes for interviewing, accepting a position and working there.
You mentioned, and then skipped past that one vital element. People need jobs, they need paychecks. For those of us old enough to be the parents, there is no place to run to, a place that will shelter and feed us as we try to pay our bills on whatever savings and unemployment we may have. I think that sometimes we have to bite the bullet and take that less than ideal job, knowing that we are settling, but that is better than having the house repossessed. You make it sound oh so noble, waiting for the perfect job. I say, sometimes you just have to suck it up and pay the bills. That, my friend, is reality. Teach at a school I don't like, or not make a living wage at Target? To me, that isn't even a contest.
On a different note, I have had three interviews check my references in the past week. I have a second interview for one of them today and the other two I am supposed to hear back from all my the end of the week. If the one today offers me the job is it ok to ask to have a few days to decide? It is three diced t grades and areas so I would like time to see if the other two offer me the job and then decide
"What is the deadline on your offer? I want to give it full consideration." If the answer is "today", then you need to decide if you would be miserable turning down the job in hand for the two possibilities in the bush.
No, I don't think I am twisting what you have said. In the ideal world, you can interview until you find the job of your dreams, and as long as you can pay the bills, I am 100% in favor of that. I always know what my education and experience are worth, but sometimes the less than perfect job is the one that gets the bills paid. I always go into a job like that determined to give my all, and many times that starts an air of change and the expectation of "more." I am old school "Ask not what your country (or job, or school, or community) can do for you, but rather what you can do for your country (etc)." I believe that we have a great amount of power to mold our jobs, to make them more the shining beacon we want them to be. Many do nothing and then shrug and decide it is time to walk away - miracles didn't happen without them putting in any effort. Point of view.
I get what you're saying, but in my case, I have undercut my own resume in interviews a few times because I was worried I would look arrogant to mention law. I am so frustrated with myself these days that I disagree with your last statement. If I had value to a district, I'd have a contract and a classroom.
Good luck to all y'all...I'm trying to find some positives to latch onto, but every day puts me closer to another "scarlet letter" year.
Good luck...A district that is legitimately interested in you won't force you into a decision. You are well within your rights to ask for a couple days to decide.
Please don't see starting a second year as a sub as a scarlet letter. It will color your perception of everything, and usually not in a positive way. It is simply another way to pay your bills - you could be working at McDonald's, but you're not. You are teaching, just not with a contract -- yet. I truly believe that, it is how I see the world. It doesn't mean anything if I believe it but you don't. Consider that.
I'm going to have to borrow some positive energy from you. I actually said in an interview that wasn't going overly well that "anybody could do what I've done so far. It's only law school".
My nephew is a lawyer, and he says he wouldn't teach for all the tea in China, so all in the perspective! I have the glass half full view of the world, and sometimes it drives my students nuts, but they usually come along for the ride. You can have all the positive energy you need - no charge, but you have to fight the tendency to belittle yourself, OK? How you see yourself is often reflected in the eyes of others, how they see you. They read your self doubt, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yes, I agree that it's all in perspective! Several of my high school friends became lawyers and they really seem to love the profession. I don't think that they would agree that anyone can handle law school because it depends on which law school you go to. Some are considered easy and others are highly competitive.
Also to add in I know of quite a few people who were looking to start or only work at their "dream school" people who wouldn't settle. What made up of the dream school? 90% location 5% grade level 5% admin. Around here everyone is looking to work in a school that's closer to home. I know people that have spent up to 7 years subbing hoping to get into a district close to home. People who have added additional certs, and not even the "right certs" that would get them a job quickly because they hold on to a dream of getting a job close to home.
These people also now realize well screw it, they are coming into the city and expanding their radius and ideals because they can no longer afford to sub. It's extremely hard to get a job in the burbs around here. 1 position generates over 1,000 resumes. People readjust their expectations as time passes and they amass greater responsibilities such as a mortgage and children etc. It's ok to be selective, but you also have to be realistic.
My best friend wound up in a great school in the best district her first year after subbing for them. After that year though she was excessed and was really upset because she thought that school was the perfect fit for her. Many years later now she's had the opportunity to go back but decided to stay at her current school in a lesser district because she likes it and no longer sees that other school as perfect because things have changed over there in years past. Although the district is still the best and the school is still good, there's more than "school cred" that makes a school great to work at.
I think people need to break this idea that it's your ideal school/district or nothing. There's too many options here and it's extremely competitive to keep your search that narrow until you've built up some solid teaching cred.
Leaborb, you are definitely in a position to be selective as your goal at the moment wasn't to obtain a full time position, but rather if one happened that would be great. But I also think you should consider not giving a bad impression with questioning schools in some of the ways you seem to be because you don't want to burn bridges if you do plan to stick around in the area. Small towns remember candidates better than larger urban areas.
The beauty about teaching is that there's so many options. Just be realistic wherever you are about what you want to do as a teacher and what the job prospects are in your area if you don't plan to relocate. If you have to sub for a bit go ahead. Any and all experience is going to make you a better educator.
I noticed it one time in an interview back in May...the interviewer asked me why I chose to sub and why I didn't have an offer from the school where I student taught. I said that subbing chose me and I was hoping to hone my teaching skills in any classroom I could get into. His reply was "well, you can sub anywhere"...my reply was "I wish I could teach anywhere".
Had my second interview today. I think it went well. It was kinda a lot like the first except I took a tour of the school and got a lot more information about the daily schedule/ins and outs so to speak.
Here is my "frustration"-this is for a mostly self contained 5th grade classroom. 5th grade is already a little out of my comfort zone, but totally doable. They also have a middle school science /6th grade home room position open. That is WAY out of my comfort zone. But she has asked a few times now if I would consider that position. I believe she is down to two people and is trying to get one of us to say that we would accept the 6th grade position because she wants to hire both of us. But science is definitely not my strong suit. I also need job...should I politely say I prefer 5th grade, but if that position becomes unavailable I would CONSIDER the MS position? I don't want to take myself out of the position I really want by showing interest in the other one
True, but sometimes people can't see under the bluntness you might give off that you are a good educator and it might rub them the wrong way, therefore burning a bridge if you apply in the future if they have rejected you in the past.
Glad the catholic school interview went well. Sounds like your ideal interview dating scenario. Don't be surprised if they do actually want you to teach there!
Can I ask is this one interview why you view subbing as the kiss of death?
Here's my thought, as a newly credentialed teacher without experience you take what is offered to you if you really want a classroom and the school fits the bill.
If I really wanted a job and my prospects were not looking too great and they offered me 1st grade I would take it. Mind you the thought of teaching 1st or 2nd grade gives me the hebeegeebees. I did teach 2nd for 5 years. Because you could always move grades within the school. Please tell me this is something possible where you're from, I know not all states follow such rules.
Unless you feel you really know nothing about middle school science. I mean it's one subject all day which is really kind of nice. I miss just teaching ELA and being departmentalized. However if you are credentialed to teach the subject and grade you can't be too surprised to be offered the position.
I wouldn't step up and say anything, let the cards fall where they will and if they offer you middle school science you can decline if you want, but if you say you only want 5th grade you may not get an offer at all.
One reason I hate is so much is my 510 EDU class which was taught by a retired Superintendent. Every story came with the admonition that "if you make this mistake, you are going to be a sub forever" and "heck, if you don't do well in class you can still be a career sub".
So you can move in schools here, but this is a small private Catholic School so I don't know how often that would happen. I am actually technically not credentialed for this position. I am credentialed PK-6, but this would include 7/8. Again though, since its not a public school you don't need any type of certification to work there. I am just hesitant because I really wanted to stay within 1-3, and thought 5 was pushing it for my comfort zone but your right-I need a job. I am still awaiting 2 other positions and I am supposed to hear back from all this week. Fingers crossed I get the one I really want -3rd grade and closest to home.
That is so awful. They sound like someone who hates their own job. I wouldn't let one person sour your thoughts about subbing. Sure most people don't/didn't want to sub (myself included) but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do it. In my opinion, other than those who choose to only sub, those that become career subs are usually the ones who probably shouldn't be in the classroom for various reasons (unless of course you live in NY--as I've noted SUPER competitive here). You'll get your shot because you have a lot of passion behind wanting to teach. Really just try to put out those negative thoughts. Every time I've gotten a job I went with a positive smile and repeated in my head today I'm going to get this job. It helped calm my nerves and put out negative thoughts.
They don't call and say they'd will call you back if they are passing on you. At least that's what I think.
Even in small catholic schools you can move around too. I attended a small catholic school and keep in touch with my former 5th grade teacher. She taught quite a few grades there for the 20 years she taught there. So don't give up hope.
mckbearcat48, I'm still wondering... Are you certified in both IL and MO, or just IL? I know you're English/SS certified... Are you only looking for high school, or would you consider middle school? If you are open to middle school, too, you might increase your chances of finding something. And, I know I've said it before, but I'll add again that charters would be a good way for you to get some experience on your resume. Have you considered them?
If you are MO certified, are you familiar with MOREAP? Here is a high school English job that was just posted today(!): https://www.moreap.net/job_postings/50895/MO01/MO01#.V6AF7o62ulg. Here are all of the English postings, some very recent: https://www.moreap.net/jobsrch.php?...ubject=60&keywords=&srch=100&submitBut=Search. Here are all of the SS jobs, also some recently posted: https://www.moreap.net/jobsrch.php?...bject=180&keywords=&srch=100&submitBut=Search.
If you're not MO certified, you should get it. They accept IL certs and give you whatever is comparable in MO, almost without question.
Riverview Gardens has a middle school Comm Arts position that closes TONIGHT (although, it's been up so long, that it's likely already filled - still doesn't hurt to apply)! https://riverviewmo.tedk12.com/hire/ViewJob.aspx?JobID=1677
I know some of these jobs might not be the most conveniently located to where you live, nor may they be the most ideal positions. But, if the goal is to have your own classroom, you might just have to start somewhere less than ideal... as was discussed earlier in this thread.
On a final note, I was going to send this via a PM, but you must either not have enough posts or you have your settings set so that you cannot receive PMs. So, I decided to just post it here. Hope it helps. Let me know if I can be of further help.
Yeah, I haven't quite figured out PMs I'm getting MO cert as soon as it clears, and I have HS and MS SS and English in IL now. I get the less than ideal thing (my "dream" district thinks I'm good enough to sub but not good enough to teach) and I went through 2 interviews at one of the toughest HS in IL. I have looked into some STL charters as well. The local Catholic High Schools have interviewed me and those interviews actually were some of my best (one principal told me he'd love to hire me but the JuCo they partner with for dual credit didn't accept my transcripts).
I had 3 friends get jobs in the last couple days and all of them have asked me how my search is going...all 3 were multi year subs who got exactly the situation they wanted. I have sub training tomorrow morning, and it scares the hell out of me (it's that "dream district" policy that all subs must do a training even if they subbed previously.
I want to make the same difference on kids that great teachers made on me way back when. That is why I respect classroom teachers so much. I can name a couple who are a large part of the reason I went to law school and practiced law, and they are why I want to pay it forward. Also, keeping kids out of the prosecutors office is a huge deal to me...I saw so many kids who had given up hope and turned to crime, and it repulses me to this day that I put them in jail. Jail is no place for a kid, period. I never pursued the death penalty for a student-aged perpetrator, but I did get a couple long sentences. I feel so bad about subbing because I don't feel I can accomplish that goal working in a different classroom every day.
I didn't read the whole thread, but some of these posts are hilarious. I just wanted to share a quick job hunt story from a couple weeks ago:
My school is being consolidated, so in anticipation of a layoff, I started job hunting. We are losing students due to a new school being built in the district. The expectation was that we interviewed at this new school as a formality, even if we might be offered our current positions. I interviewed with the new school and it was a damn disaster!
There were 2 rounds. Round 1 was timed questions and I was frequently interrupted. Somehow, I made it to round 2. This round was a demo lesson with a panel of adults, a data analysis activity, and a debrief about both things. The emailed directions said "Do a reading or math lesson." I came prepared and wasn't even greeted at the door. They put me in front of a whiteboard and said "GO." I started saying "Well, this context would be a 5th grade special education room..." and the man said "WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR CONTEXT. JUST GO." They were childish and disruptive during the entire thing.
I thought I might recover a bit during the data analysis, but that was even worse. They laid out a bunch of charts and graphs and when they didn't like one of my answers the man said "Point to which chart would be useful in XYZ situation." I didn't really understand the question and when he was impatient with my clarifying he GRABBED MY HAND AND POINTED IT TO A CHART LIKE I WAS A CHILD. I looked directly at the principal, who happened to be female, and waited for her to intervene in some way. I couldn't believe she let anybody touch me in an interview! I don't know you...
They asked me at the end what I thought about this process and I was very honest in that I thought they were brash and unprofessional. Easily the worst interview process I'd ever been on and a waste of my time.
.....they called a few days later offering me a position!
I couldn't even. I politely told them to go to hell and ended up taking a new job 10 minutes from my house. Very similar interview process/structure, but filled with kindness, flexibility, and actual children for my demo lesson.
Point is, keep the faith. You'll find your people.
I wouldn't be offended too much about that sub training... It's probably just to update employees on new policies and review important things... similar to what regular teachers have to sit through during back-to-school PD every year.
If you have applied for your MO cert already, then you should def apply for some jobs in MO! Back when I was first starting out, I was waiting on my IL cert to come through before I could even apply for my MO cert... I didn't have either one in hand yet, but I was applying for jobs in both states. Most applications allow you to say that your cert is pending. I got my first job at a charter without even having the cert finalized. I turned it in after school had been in session for two months. Now, tech is more up-to-date, and they don't even give you the paper copy anymore. It's all online, so the school can look whenever they want. Anyway, I worked that charter job for 1.5 years before I was offered a job at one of the top school districts in the STL area. I, of course, left that job to move away from the area for a year (and, that "top" job really wasn't all it was cracked up to be... admin and climate was awful in my building, despite the district having a great reputation in general). Now that I'm back in the area, I was able to land a job at another good district. It's all about getting experience at some less than ideal place. Once you prove yourself there, you can move on to bigger and better things... like your "dream" school... Although, as I've alluded to, those "dream" schools are rarely ever that once you're on the inside.
Hope you find something! Seriously, apply to every single opening that you're qualified for... don't worry whether or not your cert has gone through. Don't worry about whether or not the job is ideal. Apply for everything right now. Good luck.
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