Job Hunt Frustration, Venting & Support Thread!

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Leaborb192, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. WordLover

    WordLover Rookie

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    Interesting thread - I needed it. The NYC metro area is highly competitive. As I face September without a teaching job, I struggle with deep discouragement. I'm an energetic, positive, funny, highly articulate, youthful, and stylish midlife woman who has just earned an MAT and $36 thou of debt. As I am also a trainer of professional actors, I am skilled in Shakespearean performance and have published material for student actors. It has been my dream to lead a club of aspiring actors, directors, and writers of color who would perform in their community. I explain that on my applications, how it will build literacy and character. This, my maturity, great references, and a 3.96 GPA should make me an appealing candidate. I will be subbing to pay off loans however I've decided to make lemonade: I'll be auditioning in NYC again, once a week. Having a stimulating and creative "Plan B" is the best way to survive teacher unemployment. BTW, I sub in a district where the teachers tell me that nepotism and cronyism is rampant. In fact, I overheard one teacher say to another, "....and I even got so-and-so a job here." Interestingly, before leaving to start a family, I had taught in this district when I was in my twenties; I was hired because the supervisor knew my sister. Find your constructive and creative balm, fellow educators. It's tough.
     
  2. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  3. WordLover

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    Thanks, Leaborb. It is true what someone said, here, about Md. being more open. I've a middle-aged friend who was hired immediately. I've another, a smart and mature young man, who waited six years, then moved Md. and was hired immediately. My advice to people without ties is to move to an amenable state. My husband is the major earner, had been laid off twice in the past year, is fortunate to have his current position; it's not feasible for us to just up and leave - especially with his mother needing help. Those of us who have business smarts might start our own tutoring companies. (I'm all artist and I stink at finances.) I can remember having a "token interview" last summer. The principal's extremely nonchalant deportment and lack of serious questions told me I was just a number to check off. Another school, a private one, had really piqued my interest. I spent an entire weekend planning the demo LP (a researched, unique and fun way of making verse come alive) , buying materials, and prepping. I thought it went well. The students and I related well. Later that week, I sent thank you notes to all interviewers. I did not receive any followup letter. My only gaffe, I think, I was accidentally calling one of them by their first names in front of the students. (We all work with at least a small amount of tension at demos.) That was last spring. I also wish that ageism could be more easily proved.
     
  4. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  5. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    I'm not sure I agree with this. If you do show up for an interview, and they find out you are uncertified for the spot which you applied for, they might be pretty peeved, and it could burn some potential bridges down the road.
     
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  6. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  7. TrademarkTer

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    I'm sure this happens in some places. I guess I am speaking from my experience that it would not go over well to have someone showing up who is uncertified in my district particularly because the certification requirements are typically shown within the job posting. My district is never really desperate except for sometimes with the chem/physics teachers, but I suppose it would be more common in less desirable areas.
     
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  8. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  9. mckbearcat48

    mckbearcat48 Cohort

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    That's how I got my full-time job. Certified in SS and ELA 6-12 and I'm teaching 6-12 science. It can work, and it can be really effective if you can show enough mastery in a hard to fill position.
     
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  10. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  11. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    She was just giving you the same treatment she gives everyone. Do not apply for positions you are not qualified for. They will see your resume so often they'll dismiss it when a job comes up you are qualified for.
     
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  12. AlwaysAttend

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    Keep in mind, you just interviewed for a job you weren't qualified for and they didn't hire you because of it. You did waste their time whether you realize it or not.
     
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  13. AlwaysAttend

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    How exactly did you show mastery? Was it a district people wanted to work in? How long ago are we talking?
     
  14. AlwaysAttend

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    I love what you want to do, but as someone who has pulled resumes to interview people, your application screams 2 things to me. 1. You are going to ditch me when you find that creative outlet you described. 2. You are going to start running when you should be walking and I'm going to be constantly checking to make sure you don't fall. Try narrowing the scope of your passion to how your experiences will lead to improved confidence, character, and academic performance which I think are true and would grab my attention. Make sure its connected to actual experiences with children or young adults.
     
  15. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  16. Leaborb192

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  17. Leaborb192

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  18. AlwaysAttend

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    You can say anything you like. I've been offered 5 professional teaching posistions, all in K-8 schools, 3 of which I've accepted, and always steps up in responsibility and bumps in pay. I live in NJ where you could trip over elementary certified teachers as you walk down the street.

    I started with no connections at all and am the first person in my family to work in education.

    Probably all SPED/ESL/Reading Specialist type jobs recieve some sort of federal funding. SPED/ESL most districts would probably let someone without a cert get an alternate route cert and start. You'd then have to attend grad school in order to make the cert current. Personally I think that's as much a disservice to the students as hiring a sub, but obviously I can't advocate for every student in the country. If it was a school I worked in or had a child in, I certainly would.

    Any admins who would hire uncertified teachers is also going to cut other corners you don't want to be a part of. Kids not recieving services for example. You'd probably be part of that and named in the furure lawsuit.
     
  19. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  20. AlwaysAttend

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    Become a sub in 2-3 good districts, show your value as an educator. If you are passed over for 2 LTS jobs in one of those districts, stop subbing there because it's not happening. Also, focus on getting your foot in the door with an LTS position. If money is an issue beyond that get a 2nd job. You'll be much better off in the short and long-term.
     
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  21. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  22. Always__Learning

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    I think it is important to be aware of how we are approaching applying and the message it can send. That being said, I think this is very regional.

    In Canada teaching jobs are incredibly competitive. When asked, I still tell teachers to apply for positions outside of their subject area. I say, it is your responsibility to put your best foot forward and it is the District's responsibility to determine if you are qualified. I tell them this because our hiring processes are very regulated and there are situations where there has not been a qualified applicant. The hiring processes are very specific and, unfortunately, in those situations if Teacher A didn't apply because they weren't qualified in the subject and Teacher B did apply (even though they were not qualified), Teacher B gets it, even if the hiring team would have preferred to hire Teacher A.
    So I think the key is knowing the context of your area.
     
  23. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    If a listing says no calls or emails about the job, would you call or email?
     
  24. mckbearcat48

    mckbearcat48 Cohort

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    LTS the year before in science was enough for the ROE to hire me. So 3 months LTS was enough for the alternative school to hire me, and I'm in my second year as the science teacher. Is it a "destination job"? Probably not, but they were willing to take a chance and it's my job to repay their confidence in spades.

    As many have stated here, the best experience in teaching is your own classroom, and sometimes, it's a circuitous route to get it. I would much rather be in the classroom I'm in now than still subbing...and most people would probably agree.
     
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  25. AlwaysAttend

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    Except the students parents if they knew you weren't qualified.
     
  26. mckbearcat48

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    So far I have not been apprised of any complaints since I've been a FT teacher...

    I have ELA and SS from 6-12, but the school wants me to teach science. So that's what I do.
     
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  27. AlwaysAttend

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    I could be wrong, but I believe in NJ, if a teacher is not certified to teach what they are teaching in a public school, they need to send out written notice. I might be wrong on that though. Perhaps one of the longer tenured teachers in NJ know for sure.
     
  28. AlwaysAttend

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  29. mckbearcat48

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    Illinois doesn't have that requirement that I know. My interviewer said that my recommendation from the science teacher I covered (at an elite Metro St. Louis district) was enough for him.
     
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  30. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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    ,
     
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  31. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

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  32. AlwaysAttend

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    With all due respect, the students would be better served by a substitue teacher serving as a class monitor, kahn academy videos, assessments created by a testing company designed to produce useful data, and a small group of highly trained resource teachers for pullout based on the data.
     
  33. AlwaysAttend

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    I just read an article from an Arizona newspaper that talked about how large groups of parents were showing up to schools practically carrying pitchforks because of the hiring practices.
     
  34. Always__Learning

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    AlwaysAttend,

    I tend to be someone who works within the parameters that are set but I feel like your response - asking me if I would call if a posting said do not call - misses the point I was trying to make.

    My point was that if we should or should not apply to a position we are not qualified for really depends on our context. It is important to know how things work in your region when making the decision.

    Where I am we can get temporary (a few days to a year in length) jobs or we can get a contract job which is permanent. My first contract job was in an area that I wasn't qualified to teach in. I got the job because no one who was qualified applied for the job so the only people who were interviewed were unqualified for the subject (but qualified to teach). In my province, we often are asked to teach outside of our subject areas. It is done when both the District feel the person is capable of teaching the subject area and the teacher feels they are capable. Both sides have to agree.

    I would not agree that students are better served with a supply, khan academy and resource teachers. I actually think that if I had to choose between a teacher with strong pedagogy and weak subject knowledge or strong subject knowledge and weak pedagogy, I would always choose the teacher with strong pedagogy. I would also point out that not being qualified in a subject area doesn't necessarily mean I'm not knowledgeable or capable in the subject area. I could get my qualification for that subject. I actually only need 1 course to become qualified but I chose not to pursue it because it wasn't the subject I wanted to teach long term and the Principal was fine with that because they needed someone right away who they felt could teach kids.

    So I know nothing about NJ. Maybe in NJ everyone always teaches their subject. That isn't my reality. I've taught every subject my high school offers except science, music and tech (woodworking/metal/cooking).
     
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  35. AlwaysAttend

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    Anywhere in the country, if your child needed a tutor for HS Biology, would you hire someone who had a bachelors degree in biology or a HS English teacher? Anyone who says English teacher is lying.

    If someone is willing to hire you, it doesn't make it right. Moral choices are made every day. I cannot convince someone to do the right thing because innately, humans are selfish. If enough people turned these positions down the state government would have to make drastic changes to correct the problem or probably face the federal government threatening to take over.

    I can't speak to Canada but I can speak to the fact that the US has 300 million more people and over 89% of the population of Canada is white so the teaching abilities needed are clearly different than Arizona. What I would also say is content knowledge matters and there are lots of studies to back that up.

    I'm not a fan of Alternate Route but if you gave me the choice, I'd choose them. You could genuinely set students back by teaching content incorrectly. The problem in Arizona is they don't even have enough of them because the pay is too low because the union (if it even exists) is ineffective. If I was in charge of the union, I would announce a strike and force the issues into the natural spotlight. They would be ordered back to work, but I would keep making the courts order me back once per month.

    If my entire family didn't live within 45 minutes of me, I'd investigate Charter requirements in Arizona and start a school every year where I plucked alternate route candidates from California and paid them identical wages to what they'd be making in California.

    Here is what I will say. This is a thread meant for people looking for jobs and I shouldn't be trying to convince people of what's right and what's wrong in education. For that, I'm sorry.
     
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  36. Always__Learning

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    AlwaysAttend,

    Canada consistently does well in international standards and puts pedagogy ahead of content knowledge so I'm comfortable with our approach. I don't think it was immoral for my Principal to hire me. It would have been appreciated if you could have made your point without questioning my ethics.

    In terms of the topic of this thread, I stand by the idea that if in Leaborb's area people get hired outside of their subject area then there is nothing immoral about applying. Where I work, HR (not teachers or administrators) decides who gets an interview and if they want to interview you outside of their qualification it is because you have met their legal and ethical needs.

    I would also add that in my experience who a candidate is as a person (like the conversation we had about green/yellow/red) is far more important than the number of qualifications. My District just hired someone in a very high level position that wasn't qualified. They did this because it isn't all about the letters behind a candidate's name. They felt the person they hired was the right fit. Legally they are allowed to hire someone in the process of the qualification over someone with the qualification as long as they have provincial approval. In 5 months, the person will be qualified. The District prefers to hire the person with the "right fit" and wait on the qualification over the candidates who are qualified that they just don't see as being the right fit.

    So good luck to everyone applying to positions (irrespective of if they are or are not qualified). My major tip is keep thinking about your soft skills and how to improve them. They make all the difference.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  37. AlwaysAttend

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    The population is playing a major role in those test scores. It's like conparing America to Finland. It can't be done.
     
  38. Always__Learning

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    AlwaysAttend,

    From my reading, it seemed you were suggesting that it was immoral for me to accept a job outside my subject area. So in that context I explained that given that the students I teach are meeting the standards my country has set, I'm comfortable with my decision. In Canada, putting pedagogy first and content second is working. I have noted in many of your threads that you really value content knowledge. For example, when we were talking about math you noted that you thought math teachers should have to have x number of university credits. I noted that in my province a qualified math teacher does not need that many credits. So my experience is simply different and has led to a different perspective. I work in the classrooms of approximately 30 teachers a year and my experience is that content knowledge is important but not as important as pedagogical knowledge and a willingness to continue to learn in both areas.

    So I would continue to encourage Leaborb to apply for positions that he believes he could successfully fill.
     
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  39. AlwaysAttend

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    I was trying to move the discussion elsewhere but my final comment is trying to explain the point I'm making. Its like suggesting a student gets the same education at Harvard and a state school. It isn't reality. They could be brilliant and get straight A's, but imagine the possibilities of the better learning environment.

    The best interests of a student are met when they have an expert on pedagogy and content. No teacher worth their salt is one or the other. Even after you have both, you still need to learn how to function in a classroom.

    I'm not attacking you personally, I'm also not going to tell you the setup you describe is what's in the best interests of students. It's the same reason I don't go on the test takers thread and tell the people who fail basic skills tests 5 times that they should study more. If they can't pass the tests in 3 tries they have no business teaching kids. If their colleges had told them that, they would have saved them a lot of money.
     
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  40. AlwaysAttend

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    Mods, please don't shut down this useful thread. I promise I won't post anymore no matter what!
     

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