Janus case

Discussion in 'General Education' started by czacza, Feb 25, 2018.

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  1. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Yeah, I'm not sure what that would look like in paper or in practice, but I do like the concept of it.
     
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  2. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    I don't know if I could make something as specific as bullet points, but I do know it's a thing. Men are more likely to get raises and whatnot because they ask for it. Men tend to communicate more directly. Yes, there are countless exceptions, but it's a big enough generality to cause problems. Women tend to communicate differently and less likely to do something as direct as "Hey, can I have a raise?"
     
  3. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    Future,

    I'm sorry but I am not going to bullet point Sheryl Sandburg's book for you. I feel like your goal is to 'debate' and I feel like that misses the point I was trying to bring forward. The point I was trying to bring forward is that as people with a level of privilege (be it our gender, our ethnicity, etc) we have a moral responsibility to try to understand other perspectives. It isn't my job as the one without the privilege in this case to educate you. It is actually incumbent on you to seek out education. Here is a great article that discusses that concept: https://thewalrus.ca/its-not-my-job-to-teach-you-about-indigenous-people/.

    Your perspective seems to be that anyone can negotiate a fair raise if they simply do the work. The reality is far more complicated. I'm really not interested in debating the point. I would hope that as someone with the level of privilege you have brought forward (good health as one example) that you would be wiling to set aside debate and just try to understand other perspectives. I think what learning about privilege has taught me is that yes I've worked hard to get where I am, but I've also got here because of biases in the system that work in my favour. I think at a minimum I have a responsibility to learn about and understand those biases.

    So suffice to say that every woman I know would agree with Sandburg's points regarding fair wages and yes even when we ask for them we are at a MAJOR disadvantage. It is so well established that there are ads in Canada encouraging women to learn how to negotiate for higher raises while recognizing that we basically have to sell our souls to get those raises. Again, if you really want to understand the perspective, read Sandburg's book.

    I frequently explain to my male colleagues that I have to exert far more 'social effort' to get the same result that they do. There is so much inequity in education - it goes far beyond raises but that is certainly one that is super easy to prove.
     
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  4. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    Score anotther one for public schools ;) I go to math conferences now and then, and they count as PD days, so they aren't personal days.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  5. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Oh, that’s messed up, lol. I concede this one to you, but next time expect me when you least expect me. <waves fist in the air>

    My school only pays for conferences over the summer! That’s poo-poo!
     
  6. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I actually wasn’t going to debate you, as strange as it seems. I’ve just never heard about it being more difficult for women to negotiate until now. All I heard was that they don’t negotiate as often, not that it was more difficult. My mindset is you just ask your employer when you think the time is right, you then sit down with him or her, and they say yes or no. I say this because none of my female colleagues have said anything negative when they asked, though that is too small of a sample and I can only speak for women in my workplace and not outside of it.

    In your experience, what do you mean by social effort? Do you mean you have to bring it up more often than your male counterparts before your employer is willing to hear you?

    An interesting experiment would be to take a random sample of an equal number of men and women at your place of work and ask them how many attempts it took them before they received a raise following good performance reviews. Then, you could do a hypothesis test, specifically, a two-sample test for the difference of two means, to see if there is a statistically different result. If so, then you could say that there is statistical evidence that discrimination is taking place against women asking for raises.

    The Canada study only says about women in a specific niche in Canada, so we can’t extrapolate beyond the population of interest as it would be statistically dishonest.
     
  7. tchr4vr

    tchr4vr Companion

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    Regardless of whether you work in a non-union or union state, there is a step/salary scale. I have one now. If you look at my area, all districts have them. The wealthier areas have a higher steps because they have more money from taxes to put into the school system. However, all our districts are competitve--they keep an eye on what the neighbors are doing. A school system that wants good teachers will do what they can to keep them--unfortunately, union or not, sometimes their hands are tied due to outside forces--tax base, support of education, politics, etc. In my district, we are getting a 2.5% raise this year, we did last year, and we expect to every year for quite some time. They are also adjusting steps by $250.00. So, on top of the 2.5%, everyone is getting a $250.00. We do have signing bonuses for hard-to-fill positions. We do have stipends. And who does all this negotiating for us. Our school board. That is their job--they put together the budget and get the money from the city. No association, nothing. They value us as teachers, so they do what they can. And we are one of the poorer areas in my area.

    Education without associations will be the same as it is now. Where I see the real problem is that as a country, we don't see the need to properly compensate teachers so we need to have unions. We don't have doctor unions. We don't have lawyer unions. But no one argues that they should be paid what they are.
     
  8. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    No one is irreplaceable. No matter what they tell you.
     
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  9. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Beautiful post!
     
  10. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I’ll go by their words, not yours. They are my superiors after all.
     
  11. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    This is similar to my district. We do have associations, but they are optional to join. They don't function as actual unions. I join for the liability insurance, but that's about it. Anything related to compensation and benefits is discussed among a task force that my district leaders (school board and superintendent) created to negotiate and problem-solve with teachers. They value us enough that they are willing to voluntarily negotiate and problem-solve with staff who join the task force (and the task force represents all teachers in the area of compensation and benefits). We don't need a union to negotiate on our behalf. Anytime something related to compensation or benefits comes up through the associations, it gets sent to the task force to discuss.
     
  12. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    For now.
     
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  13. geoteacher

    geoteacher Habitué

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    My district gives a whopping $600 to those who don't need insurance.
     
  14. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Touché!
     
  15. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    That’s basically like a slap in the face.
     
  16. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Non-group health insurance is usually very expensive. It isn't so much for healthy, young adults, but that cost increases as you age. Ask any private business owner who has to buy their own insurance or family insurance because they have a family. (Some people find that fulfilling.)

    Group plans are usually less expensive. There are some situations where they are not, but if you ever found yourself with a medical condition you would find your healthy adult plan going to an unaffordable amount..

    With two people working in a family and one person having the better plan, I can see being able to negotiate getting salary for your insurance portion because you are on a family plan for someone else. But if something happens and you had to go back on your plan, your paycheck would then go down when you need the insurance.

    I've known people in private business who did negotiate a higher pay because they were on a spouse's health plan. I've never heard it done in teaching.

    So, I can see how insurance can be seen as a benefit or a salary, but I don't suggest it as a way to go buy your own.
     
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  17. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Men and women can say exactly the same thing. When a woman says it is seen as combative and a man assertive. A woman can say something and will be labeled a b---- and a man a strong leader.

    It is changing, but sadly people aren't judged just by their words and actions but the role they are expected to play. Since it is changing you will find some people who don't judge this way, but there are still enough people out there that will just by societal norms of how the different sexes are supposed to communicate and what it means.
     
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  18. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    This is very disappointing to hear. Luckily, society is steadily getting away from this.
     
  19. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Very thorough and informative.
     
  20. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Did you not know this already?
     
  21. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    No, i knew some workplaces offered group health insurance plans, but did not think about the consequences of opting out to other participants for the sake of getting a boost in salary. I’m young and so I don’t need healthcare. For example, I go get a checkup twice a year and very rarely get sick. I don’t have any health problems either, but my workers do it might. With that said, I shouldn’t ruin it for them, but it would still be nice to at least have the option to receive a reduced amount of the cost my employer would pay for my plan.

    I liked the explanation, though, because it was worded very nicely.

    Also, I am never getting married or having children and so I don’t need healthcare for a family because I am not going to make one. I take care of myself and so I don’t bother with looking up family costs as I’m just one person.
     
  22. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Do you live in a bubble? Are you invincible?

    Do you know how many people have been deemed healthy by a doctor and then had a heart attack or stroke shortly after? So, unless you are not human, will never get in an accident like tripping over a curb and breaking something, you need insurance.

    Not having health insurance is one of those very poor choices in life that can ruin you financially. You talk about poor choices, this would be a very poor choice even though immediately seems more financially lucrative.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  23. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I have more than enough in savings to cover most medical costs. For example, I paid for cosmetic jaw surgery ($8,000) last month out of pocket and did not even touch my savings. I should be fine for most instances as I’m a great saver and always have reserves at the ready in case something happens.

    Moreover, I’ve been genetically tested multiple times and have no genetic variants for any of the major or minor diseases. Plus, I get blood work done each year and have my heart checked with a machine to determine if I have any plaque build up in my arteries — my doctor told me I have 0% plaque build up. Trust me, I make sure they check pretty much everything because I want to make sure any potential problems can be addressed as soon as they arise. To demonstrate, I used to have 2 moles and 5 freckles on my body and I read in the medical literature that they could become cancerous and so I had every single one removed by a plastic surgeon (paid extra to make sure there was no scarring). That cost a pretty penny, but the ease of mind was worth it. The chance of them becoming cancerous now is 0% because they utilized special cutting techniques, removed each piece, and then used medical-grade acid to burn the margins to kill every last cell that might have been missed. I don’t take any chances with my health.

    With that said, I will not forgo having health insurance as that could lead to financial ruin as you previously said. What I AM saying is that the services I receive don’t cost very much — outside of cosmetic surgery — and so my plan is not cost effective to my employer as they pay way too much for the benefits I receive (about $10,000 for my plan) and I only use about $1,000 in services each year.

    As I get older I will definitely make use of my healthcare more and more, I’m sure, but right now it’s a sunk cost for my employer. It doesn’t behoove them to pay so much since they cover 100% of the costs and I pay absolutely nothing. My thought process is this: They could just as easily pay $5,000 and I would still be able to do the same services for a lot less, so why can’t I keep the difference? They would still spend the exact same amount either way. The only thing is that my deductible would be $1,000 instead of $500, which is not significant to me.
     
  24. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    You're parodying yourself with this post.
     
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  25. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Because you can trip down some steps, break a femur and end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical expenses which then has to come out of a pool in which you barely paid anything into because you were otherwise healthy.

    You could end up with cancer even though you and your doctor never expected it. I know several people who were very on top of their health, led healthy lifestyles, and still ended up with cancer. Everyone was shocked because they did everything they were "supposed" to do when it came to taking care of yourself - including going to the doctor.

    I hope neither of these things ever happen to you, but they can whether you believe it or not.
     
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  26. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

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    Isn't this the point of insurance, in a general way?

    Insurance costs are planned by those companies to ensure (heh) that they are not losing money, meaning that there may be times when one (individual or company) is paying more than what's being used into a plan, but then at other times, more benefits may be received than what's paid in?

    For example, if you pay $1000 in car insurance each year (random amount), there might be no car crashes for 15 years and thus $15K in "sunk costs", but then you have an unexpected event in year 16 leading to a crash that requires the insurance company to cover $15K in physical losses and another $40K in personal injury...now it's just saved you $40K over the life of it. Again, totally random numbers and example (i.e. don't start saying that you never have had any tickets in your life and never plan to because you'll be a perfect driver...that's not the point ;)).
     
  27. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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  28. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    My house insurance paid out a £1,250,000 claim a few years back. I don't quibble when they send me the premium for the next 12 months.
     
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  29. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I know a few areas where the unions aren't going to be able to change the view of the public. Teachers have been striking for multiple years now because their huge raise was not good enough. They don't want to pay a dime towards health insurance while the "public" has been getting hit with high costs for health premiums, increased taxes to pay for higher salaries of public employees, and a downturn in the economy so bad that it is desperately sad. Yet, the teachers who have incomes well above the family average for the area don't want to contribute the 50/month they were being asked to contribute.

    I can see why some places union members might be afraid to knock on a door and try to convince someone that they are a good thing.
     
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  30. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    The unexpected happens, no matter how careful or healthy you are. I could cite countless examples from my personal experience. To think that you don't need insurance because you are confident in your ability to avoid all illness and injury is foolish.
     
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  31. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    You dont need health insurance? Your type of naivete is a reason why premiums are so high. We ALL pay for the non- and under-insured.

    Plus, the ACA requires U.S. citizens and permanent residents to have health insurance coverage or pay a penalty. For 2017, that was the higher of 2.5 percent of adjusted gross income or $695 per adult and $347.50 for each child under 18 with a family maximum of $2,085.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  32. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Good points made.

    And I had two parking tickets...
     
  33. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Did you actually read the entirety of what I wrote because I already addressed your first point?

    The healthcare mandate was repealed and I was fully insured all of 2017.
     
  34. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    The lowest through highest plans at my workplace would cover this type of injury. Once you pay the deductible, everything else is covered.

    Again, I’m not saying I’m invincible or immune from damage. I actually stated this in a previous post and went into great detail.

    I think some of you are picking pieces of what I’m saying and not reading the full post.
     
  35. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    This shows that you didn’t read my post at all.
     
  36. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I think the issue in the communication is that you tell us how healthy you are as an example of why your employer, who is being duped by paying such a high cost for insurance for you when you use very little, should be able to just pay a small amount for your medical while you pocket the rest. You argue that you shouldn't have to pay so much for your insurance because you don't use the full amount and are so very healthy and much more proactive than most people.

    The other issue is although you have insurance you say you don't really need insurance. The thing is, you do for the reasons we all stated. So, we are addressing things you say because they are very relevant points to the whole conversation. The fact you have insurance given to you for free doesn't negate the things you are saying to justify your point. Those things are naive and financially dangerous ideas.

    Would you have insurance if it wasn't free through your workplace and you had to pay the premiums? Having had the lovely experience of having a family member have an unexpected, yes truly unexpected and unforeseeable, medical issue that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, I wouldn't be without.
     
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  37. Pi-R-Squared

    Pi-R-Squared Groupie

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    Reminds me of an article about Lloyd Carnie and the bucket of water!
     
  38. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    I had to Google that you know what you were talking about... and I agree. For everyone else, here's a link and the relevant text:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/...youre-irreplaceable-take-the-bucket-test.html

    He used to say all the time that everybody is replaceable. He used to do this thing called a bucket test. He would be arguing with one of his employees, and he’d call me in and say, “Get a bucket of water.” So I’d bring the bucket of water to the room, and he’d say, 'Lloydie, put your hand in the water.” Then I’d take it out, and he’d say to his employee, “See that hole that Lloyd left in the water? That’s the hole you’re going to leave when you leave here.”

    The guy was usually trying to get some big salary, trying to explain how invaluable and important he was. Once every eight months or so, my grandfather would call for the bucket of water. So I have a pretty high bar for calling someone irreplaceable. If I hear that, I’ll say, “Why? Is it Steve Jobs? Is it Einstein?” Everybody’s replaceable.
     
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  39. Pi-R-Squared

    Pi-R-Squared Groupie

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    OP, I am guessing you are a young male with neither spouse nor children?
     
  40. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I’m not the OP, but you are correct.
     
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