Janus case

Discussion in 'General Education' started by czacza, Feb 25, 2018.

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  1. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I completely agree that my private school is an anomaly. I’m not saying that most private schools are like this. What I AM saying, however, is that private jobs — inside and outside of education — give you much more opportunity for growth than public service jobs. YOU are your best negotiator and can use your performance to request better pay. You don’t have that option at public schools and you should!
     
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  2. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    As I read your posts, I understand that money seems to be the top thing on your bucket list. Are there other things that you would consider important in a career?
     
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  3. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Unless all of the admins and school board members are under 30, you're going to outlast them. You have no idea if whoever takes over those positions will feel the same way. Teaching can be very subjective. I think it's pretty naive to think you're "irreplaceable."
     
  4. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    And also in life?

    Sure, money is important, but there’s a lot more to living a fulfilling life than earning a lot of money... having a sense of humility and the wisdom to know when to stop talking (or typing), for example.
     
  5. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    They are in their 30’s and 40’s and have been each been with the school for a decade or longer. They don’t plan on going anywhere, so I guess I’m in the clear until their retirement then.
     
  6. Backroads

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    Nope, not as a new employee. It was a situation where he was changing positions and he said he had a family to take care of and needed such n such.
     
  7. Backroads

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    This is also very much the norm anywhere in the private industry, for good and for bad. No one is irreplaceable.
     
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  8. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

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    What do you mean you're not going anywhere anytime soon? I thought you really wanted to be an administrator because "they make bank". Quick change of plans?
     
  9. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I think my obsession and adamantine desire to acquire more money comes from my being impoverished growing up and escape from my family’s innumerable problems. To clarify, I’m the first person in my family to ever achieve anything monumental. My mother, for instance, has no retirement to speak of, has been in and out of homes as of late, is widowed, and has no safety net. She is barely scraping by and it is entirely her own fault. I’ce has choice words with my parents and siblings, in particular, about their poor decision making and the consequences of their illogical actions. My sister, for example, has children from three different fathers — isn’t that great — and has had an abusive husband each and every time because she is an extremely poor judge of character and never seems to learn from her mistakes. I have told her many times to stop having children that she cannot afford, that she should have never dated or had children in the first place, and that she needs to get a job, but to no avail. Why? Because they’re morons. I see my family as a bunch of screw-ups who will never improve their station in life and I have no sympathy for them. I will always love them and empathize with them, but I have no pity for them.

    Anyway, ever since I was 5 years old, I envied rich people and saw how perfect their lives were — to me. I admired them and idolized them and aspired to be more like them in any way I could. I still do.

    I recognize that money makes the world go round, and although it doesn’t solve all problems, it certainly makes my life easier. I don’t ever have to worry about bills. I go shopping all the time and enjoy every day to the fullest. Every new day is an adventure. But those adventures require money and a constant influx of it.

    As such, this is why I spent my entire young life — and continually do — bettering myself to achieve my goal of having great wealth. I spent countless hours perfecting my speech because everyone around me spoke improper English (slang, colloquialisms, and other such nonsense) and I was cognizant of the fact that slang wasn’t going to cut it in the business world. You have to read and write skillfully and be able to effectively communicate your thoughts and ideas into coherent and eloquent speech. This is why I diligently studied all manner of things and extensively researched lucrative jobs, though money was a constant issue. I hated being prevented from doing the things I wanted to because of lack of funds. I will not ever go back to that pitiful lifestyle. Ever.

    And though teaching is not the most lucrative, I recognize that I have a tremendous ability to breakdown even the most difficult subject matter into lay terms so the average person can understand. That’s why I’m so successful as a tutor and teacher, and I am paid handsomely for it.

    Money to me, frankly, is happiness. I recognize that it isn’t to some people, but it is to me. And I will not waste the only life I have on this Earth living minimally or pathetically. I want to experience life to the fullest and not merely survive. I want to live. Enter money, and money is what I need to get there.

    Hopefully you understand why I like money so much.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  10. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I can still be an administrator at the same school. I just need my admin credential first, which requires that I pass the CPACE exam. After which, I could intern at the school and teach concurrently. My administration would allow for that as our AP currently does.
     
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  11. bella84

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    To be honest, why you like money is not of interest to me.

    Give your response, I don’t think you understood the point of my post.
     
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  12. futuremathsprof

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    No, I perfectly understood your post. You said, “and in life?” You then proceeded to talk about how you believe that there is more to life than making money and I provided a rebuttal. The meaning of life is relative. To me, it is about making money plus else.

    I ignored your ad hominem attack after that.
     
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  13. bella84

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    You are entitled to you own views on life. I’m just wondering why you think the rest of us want to continually hear about it, post after post, thread after thread. You’ve made it perfectly clear that you think you’re better off and smarter with your life decisions than the rest of us. We don’t need to hear it over and over again. Know when to stop.
     
  14. Backroads

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    I have to agree with bella. I don't begrudge @futuremathsprof your reasons for liking money and you make some great points (though the idea of all that "stuff" gives me a headache as I am something of a minimalist)

    But, intentionally or unintentionally, you seem to condemn those who are more lackadaisical about the importance of money quite often.

    It's like the people who try to get me to join MLMs "You'll be rich!" Yeah, I don't care. Bragging about money is terribly unclassy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  15. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I don’t begrudge people who don’t idolize money or aspire to it, but I begrudge my family members for being so useless and making me live a crappy childhood. You wouldn’t believe half of the incredibly obtuse things they do/did or the absolute crap I had to endure in my upbringing because of their fiscal irresponsibility.

    Take my parents and sisters, for example. If they spent more time working and less time procreating, then almost ALL of their problems would be solved, but no, that would be too intricate for them to think rationally.
     
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  16. bella84

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    Fine. But we are not your family, so I am still not understanding why you continually bring it up on this forum. This doesn't seem to be the place to air your grievances with your family, and the large majority of us are already very well aware of your views on money and how much money you make. Furthermore, as you and I both contend, it's up to the individual to determine their own values in life, so what makes you think that it's your place to tell your family (or anyone else) how to live?

    I'm not actually asking for an answer to this question. It's your business, and I don't need to know anything more about it.

    "Humility does not mean lacking pride in your accomplishments. Rather, it is knowing the time, place, and tone with which to share them with the world." - unknown
     
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  17. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    This is fair and you made some salient, albeit crude, points. I acknowledge your views and I don’t aspouse that my views are in any way better than your own. My beliefs apply to my life primarily. With that said, when you are having a debate with someone and you have a disagreement, you also shouldn’t insinuate that I’m shallow or start attacking my character because I have different beliefs than you do. We all have different thought-based opinions and perspectives on things and that’s fine, but you guys questioned why I like money so much and so I elaborated. I wouldn’t have said anything otherwise. You and others were the catalyst for the conversation that ensued.

    When teachers try to make the claim that they should be paid more and should have more support, I agree and try to steer them to jobs or locales that will enable them to do so. This isn’t always feasible so I make recommendations like getting certifications in higher demand fields, etc.

    What I find perplexing is when I do that, the reaction from you and others is that money does not matter and that there are more important things, and we have this back and forth with you saying pretty much what you just said in some form.

    If you don’t care about money, then don’t complain. Just be complacent and accept what you have, but recognize that others don’t have to and are not supportive of teacher unions in all capacities. I’m happy that teachers finally might be able to advocate for themselves and not have to pay mandatory fees. I’m sick of third parties dictating how teachers get paid. Teachers before didn’t really have an option to negotiate and the Supreme Court ruling now made that possible.

    I originally talked about how public schools need to do away with collective bargaining, essentially, and allow teachers to negotiate their own contracts. I gave several reasons for why they should and deviated only when instigated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  18. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    I think you may have misinterpreted my position here. In regards to the original topic of this thread, I am pleased with the decision. I generally lean anti-union, as far as teacher unions are concerned. This is not because I want to negotiate my own salary but simply because I don't think that anyone should be forced to pay a fee to organization that they don't want to join in order to be employed by another organization, nor do I think that anyone should be forced to participate in a strike or other union activity. I'm also not dissatisfied with my own salary, and I work in a district without a union and in a state that bans teachers from striking. I do think that money is important, but, at the end of the day, to me, there are more important things in life, like the relationships that I have with my friends and family.

    I apologize if I made you feel attacked. My intention was not to attack your character but to suggest that you stop gloating so frequently on this forum about your own success. You may not intend for it to come across the way that it does, but please know that your talk about your salary does come across with a sense of smugness, particularly with the frequency with which you bring it up and when you use phrases such as "laughing all the way to the bank." It's wonderful that you've been able to set yourself up in the financial position that you are in and intend to be in long-term. However, the more you bring it up with the tone that you use, the more it sounds as if you are talking down to everyone else who hasn't been able to or who has no desire to set themselves up for the same situation. There is a way for you to engage in discourse with other forum members without bringing up your own success time and time again, and I'm simply suggesting that you be more thoughtful about that.
     
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  19. Missy

    Missy Aficionado

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    The Supreme Court holding in Janus did not espouse that individual teachers will bargain with their district; it said that individuals were not required to pay Association fees to the Associations that will still represent them in collective bargaining and in grievances or disciplinary action.
     
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  20. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I apologize for misunderstanding your post and being standoffish and I thank you for being understanding!

    We’re all in this together! We teachers have to stick together, haha!
     
  21. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Good point. My wording could have been better. I’m saying the ruling SHOULD now make it possible, that is, open the floodgates for teachers to negotiate because teacher unions should have less power overall. This to me seems like a logical consequence in that teachers unions will have to work harder to service their members or collective bargaining will lessen to a certain degree. Hopefully, that makes sense.
     
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  22. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    On a slight tangent, I suppose I am happy with all parties working to "make teachers happy". My state has had some "salary wars" going on, and I the position I recently accepted gives me a 13,000 raise.
     
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  23. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I sometimes might appear to be gloating and I want to assure you that that is NOT my intention at all. I gave examples of my successes to demonstrate the benefit of being able to negotiate. With clarification, had I not negotiated what I currently make, I would be making pittance and never have what I consider to be a decent standard of living. Only because I negotiated did I improve things for myself.

    I just don’t understand why someone would rather have someone else negotiate their salary, essentially, without their input.

    I mean, I’ve read numerous articles in which employers said certain employees make a lot more than others only because they asked for it. That really resonated with me and so I took a gamble and won. I just want that for other teachers, too, because they deserve it. There are millions of teachers who should be making a lot more than they are and I want them to have the opportunities that I have. I’m no more important than they are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  24. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Heck yes! You deserve it, my friend. :)
     
  25. bella84

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    I understand your point, and I don't disagree that many teachers deserve more than they are making. I don't think that there is a lot of room within budgets for much negotiating, with or without union involvement, though. Again, I'm not for the unions, so I'm not trying to suggest that unions do better than a teacher can do on his or her own. I just don't think most teachers would see the success you've had even if able to negotiate independently. Most schools just don't have that kind of budget. It's possible one teacher could get a couple thousand more than another, but I don't think we'd see the kind of salary negotiations that I think you're suggesting on any sort of large scale. In order to see that kind of change, we'd have to lobby the government for more school funding.
     
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  26. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    I think one thing that school districts could do is offer teachers the option of receiving generous healthcare benefits or a greater salary increase. Personally, I would rather my employer give me a $10,000 increase to my salary (about what they pay for my healthcare plan). Then, I could spend like a fraction of that to buy my own coverage and pocket the rest. This would not increase the budget any more because they were already paying that.

    What are your thoughts on this? It seems more tenable than how much I negotiated for.
     
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  27. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    Sure, that does sound more realistic. I guess my concern there would be how that would be logistically sorted out, as well as what it would mean for the terms of the group health plans. But I don't see any inherent problem with it.

    I'm not sure how much money it would really be, on average, though. My district pays less than $6000 a year for my insurance. I'm not sure what my options are for finding cheaper insurance that is good enough for me (I don't have chronic health conditions but I do go to the doctor when I have a reason to) outside of the employer-provided option. As I mentioned in another thread, I have a pretty good plan that is entirely covered by my district. I guess whether or not it is worth it to the individual teacher would depend on what the alternate options are.
     
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  28. Always__Learning

    Always__Learning Comrade

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    I am going to repeat what I said earlier:

    "Unions create more equity (as a woman I get paid the same as my male counterparts in spite of the fact that this isn't true in any non-unionized profession in Canada and the stats back this up). Being able to negotiate pay individually is actually a disadvantage as a woman because the odds are stacked against me (the author of Lean In does a great job reviewing the research about this)."

    I don't know if Future is male or female. Perhaps Future is female and has figured out how to negotiate but I have read enough to feel pretty confident that by and large women don't get the pay increases or the promotions they deserve and this is amplified for women of colour. Moreover it makes me angry that because I am a woman I have to go about negotiating in an entirely different way, so even if I could get the same pay as a man the fact that I have to 'play a part' to get it is infuriating and being able to rely on a union - which by the way in Canada has done a fantastic job of getting decent pay for educators - is something I will support.

    I also believe that education at its best is a collaborative field and having people make different amounts of money based on how well they negotiate undermines this. I've yet to see a pay for merit system in education that in any way comes close to being fair so until that day, equal pay for everyone seems the most desirable for creating schools that are worthy and places with unions seem to do a much better job than places without unions of paying teachers well. In Canada ALL teachers in public systems make good money.
     
  29. geoteacher

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    Are you sure about that? Most group policies are based on a 'pool', and if the younger, healthier individuals remove themself from the pool, the rates for those remaining (who cannot find that cheap insurance) increase. If the district allows you and others to leave and pays you a fixed amount to do so, its costs for remaining employees might actually increase. I would love to pay less for insurance, but my family needs the assurance of a group policy. Be careful what you wish for because someday you may also be in that situation.
     
  30. futuremathsprof

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    Aw crap, I forgot they were group healthcare plans. That IS problematic.
     
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  31. futuremathsprof

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    Yeah, I didn’t take into account that they were group healthcare plans. Also, that is a great point you made. Wise words.

    What about allowing teachers to receive money for any unused sick or personal days at the end of each year, if they dont do that already, instead of saving them up?
     
  32. bella84

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    I believe some districts do offer compensation for unused sick days upon retirement, not at the end of each year. Although, more recently, at least in my area, the number of days for which teachers will be reimbursed has had a limit placed on it. It was just taking too much from the budget. Given the topic of this thread, I will note that I do think that this is something that unions/associations have often negotiated for their members, but I suppose it has potential to be negotiated individually if we were at that point of individuals negotiating for themselves.

    If this was offered by my district on an annual basis, I would certainly take fewer sick days. Sometimes I take a day when I could force myself to go in a bit under the weather or if I want a three-day weekend for some reason, since we don't get vacation days. I don't do it often, but I'd be lying if I said that I never take a sick day when I don't need it. So, personally, I like the idea. It would promote attendance by teachers and the district would still be paying out the money to someone - just the regular teacher instead of a sub, assuming teachers were compensated at the daily sub rate. So, it shouldn't have any negative impact on the budget.
     
  33. futuremathsprof

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    How do women have to negotiate in a different way? I not being combative, but I don’t understand what that means.

    I have a female colleague this year that basically said, “My teacher evaluations have been excellent and every single of my students have passed the state tests for the last several years. In addition, I recently just completed an additional certification and so I would like a raise.” The admin thought on it and acquiesced since she is an amazing teacher and I can attest to that. She got like $6,000 more, I think. All she did was ask and provide evidence for why she deserved more. That’s exactly what I did. It was nothing special.

    I am confused.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  34. TrademarkTer

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    I finally found soemthing you disagree with Republican legistlators on!!!!! I remember our old Republican gov galavanting around "the benefit of not using a sick day is you're not sick!"
     
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  35. futuremathsprof

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    I’m lucky in that I have a fantastic immune system, so I only get sick every other year for like a couple days. I often just give my sick and personal days to another colleague because I never use them. I like that my school gives me the option to allow other people who actually need them to use them. It’s a nice surprise when one of my colleagues find out that they suddenly have two more personal days and six more sick days.

    I like your idea of taking fewer sick days if you know that option is available by the district. I normally am against personal days (for myself), but this year I wish I could have converted some of my sick days to personal days because I really wanted to attend a mathematical conference in the middle of the year and had to miss it, unfortunately as it was a four-day event, but I feel guilty leaving my students even for one day.
     
  36. futuremathsprof

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    Hahaha!
     
  37. Always__Learning

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    I think that when we exist in a place of privilege we have to work really hard to understand the experiences of those who do not experience that privilege. In Canada, people in the Indigenous community will often say that it is not their job to education the rest of us that we have to make an attempt to educate ourselves.

    As a white woman, I've done a lot of reading to try to understand what women of colour, members of the LGBTQ2S community and Indigenous women experience and I know I will never truly understand all that this encompass but I will continue to be open to learning about how their experiences are different.

    As I said in my previous post, I would encourage anyone who wants to understand the biases women face to read Lean In. The author does an excellent job of explaining how negotiations are different for women and how the deck is really stacked against us (even if we are negotiating with another women).
     
  38. Backroads

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    This would actually be something intriguing to me. My daughter needs special medical care, so I might likely take the generous healthcare benefits. I know other people that largely work for insurance, and they might take the Awesome Healthcare first and foremost. Hey, it's why they're working.

    It is a very interesting idea.
     
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  39. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

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    Could you elaborate a little on how negotiating is different for women, though? Do you mean that they can’t sit down with their employer to discuss getting a raise? I genuinely am not sure what you mean by that.

    A few bullet points would help me understand better.
     
  40. futuremathsprof

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    It’s a start, but I wouldn’t want to drive up costs for everyone else. Maybe I could accept a lesser amount of money. Say, instead of giving me $10,000 they give me $6,000. I’d still be okay with that.
     
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