I've chosen to resign this week. Need some help.

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Ben B., Oct 9, 2017.

  1. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 12, 2017

    I go back to what you would do with these students though. 15 year old, shows violent tendancies IQ of a 2nd grade student. Where should they go? Prison, death penalty, padded room?
     
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  2. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Oct 13, 2017

    The student would be expelled at the very least. Prison is a possibility, although that depends upon whether the justice system gets involved.

    Your false dichotomy fallacy assumes that expulsion is not possible. Can you expand on this?
     
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  3. mrsammieb

    mrsammieb Devotee

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    Oct 13, 2017

    Ben,
    How are you doing? What did you decide? I am thinking about you!
     
  4. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Oct 13, 2017

    In the States, if the answer is yes, administrators will generally do EVERYTHING BUT remove the dangerous child from a campus.

    Administrators will frequently blame the teacher for "setting off" the student. Administrators will attempt to bury the teacher with additional responsibilities associated with the violent student in order to bully tolerance from her. Administrators will force teachers to focus on pacifying violent children to the detriment and exclusion of all other students on campus. Administrators will call meetings and wring hands, but, in the end, the goal seems to be keeping violent children on campus no matter the risk or consequence.

    As American schools are dying from lack of funding, the loss of state funds for even a single child outweighs all questions of morality and good judgment.
     
  5. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Since there are specialty schools filled with this kind of student, I would disagree. Someone is paying the tuition and transportation costs to send these students to a more restrictive environment that is more experienced in handling students with these more complex and sometimes dangerous classifications. Do we get all of them? Probably not, but we get a lot of them. I do believe that the district will try many things to NOT send the student out of district, in the name of funding, but I also know that when students go this far over the line, the CST is working hard to find a better placement.
     
  6. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    It doesn't look like he's been on since Monday. Hoping for the best!
     
  7. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    AlwaysAttend, I typically agree with a lot of what you say, but what is this, non-sequitur hour?
     
  8. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Oct 13, 2017

    Where is this happening? It's not happening in Indiana, I can assure you of that. These kids are being warehoused in neighborhood schools, where they get to run the show.

    Indiana legislators aren't going to spend an extra dime on taxpayers' kids, no matter what their need.
     
  9. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 13, 2017

    It doesn't seem as if Belch sees any obligation to the interests of children with disabilities. We are responsible for these these students until 21.
     
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  10. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    I'm probably wrong, but I want to say Japan has more of a track system for students of varying abilities.
     
  11. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    The rights of one student do not outweigh the rights and safety of many students. This student is very dangerous and if I were principal I would have called the police and had the student expelled at once.
     
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  12. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Oct 13, 2017

    Zelda nailed it. The 10 days of OSS immediately mandates a treatment team meeting to reevaluate the placement, almost certainly ending in this student going into a more restrictive environment. We don't get to discard them, throw them out to the curb - we are obligated to keep trying to find a program that works. I don't know much about Indiana, but I know a fair amount about the rules when it comes to IEP's and SPED. We don't get to "throw them away" just because they are hard to educate. As far as a police report, that is always an option of the employee.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
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  13. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 13, 2017

    I don't think we've gotten the complete story as OP hasn't followed up.
     
  14. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    You’re right, maybe I’m rushing to conclusions. However, I’ve never heard of a student, disability or not, acting in this way. It is scary for all parties involved. Like Caesar753 usually says, “I need more information.”
     
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  15. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    My assumption is the student never made it to the principals office and was then suspended while investigating what happened. People tend to like avoiding lawsuits an jumping to conclusions. Most locations have a mandatory maximum suspension and requires a hearing like discussed above.
     
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  16. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Oct 13, 2017

    I can sympathize with the OP. I have had to try to teach children with similar disabilities. It is extremely challenging without a supportive administration.
     
  17. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Oct 14, 2017

    You must get to work in a WONDERFUL school district. But I see this sort of violence every single day, from multiple children.

    In Indiana, violent, disturbed children are simply warehoused in the nearest neighborhood school, free to terrorize the staff and all the "normal" children. In Indiana, violent children might get a more restrictive placement if they bring a knife or gun to school to kill someone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  18. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 14, 2017

    Perhaps if things are that bad you should follow your duty and report it to children and family services. Or you could just complain anonymously on internet message boards. Whatever works for you.
     
  19. Ben B.

    Ben B. Rookie

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    Oct 14, 2017

    Just an update folks: Let me preface this by stating that I am a male teacher. 6'0 tall and about 215 pounds. I'm not a small guy, I've been in the military, and I've had some really really challenging students in the past - never one that got in my face like this though..

    I see I started a big debate here. I love reading your thoughts and opinions.
    The student in question had already been expelled from 2 other schools within the same district in previous years. Once for destroying an entire office, and once for threatening or placing his hands on a teacher.

    This student came to our school last school year. In the course of last school year, he exhibited many of the same behaviors that he did during the incident with me. - Once trying to break down his science teachers door by kicking it as hard as he could, and during another point of the year he pushed a teacher out of the way as he was angry while going down the stairs. The teacher supposedly wrote up a report - but as you can see nothing was done about it by our admin. - Again, this all happened last year.

    I am not this student's case manager, but I am his intervention specialist for ELA. His case manager teaches him math and is in regular contact with his parents. I too had been in regular contact with his parents regarding his behavior. - A couple weeks prior this same student smacked another student in the hallway for no reason. The student he smacked wasn't even facing him, he was getting items out of his locker and was smacked from behind. - A referral was written up by two teachers, but again, nothing happened to him - no suspension, nothing.

    Regarding the incident that prompted this post two weeks ago that prompted me to post here..... I emailed a copy of what happened, including that I felt trapped and powerless, including that nobody should ever have to work in an environment where they need to threaten to call the police to be safe, etc etc. I emailed this to the president of our union, principal, and building union person. The president of the union advised me to use my sick time, requested copies of the security footage and witness statements from my principal. Everybody I knew advised me to never go back and to remain home using sick leave until a resolution had been accomplished. In the midst of this, I had already received an email from a district special ed rep which stated, in a nutshell "after the 10 day suspension, when this student comes back to school, I'll come by for an observation and recommend some strategies for this student." - Apparently the student's mom didn't feel his IEP was being followed. - I wish his mother understood that her son has a severe, severe, anger problem and that he is going to seriously hurt somebody one day and in the process most likely hurt himself. His IEP WAS being followed by his case manager. The issue here is that his parents aren't giving him his prescribed medication (can't force them to) and that, like many of you stated, a school that has only pull outs for special ed (no self-contained classroom) is not the right environment for this student.
    I ignored the email from the district spec ed rep because there is no way she was given the entire story, and I also didn't feel like getting stressed out anymore about this hopeless situation in this hopeless school building.
    I stayed home the rest of the week (10/3-10/6) contemplating my next move. There was an opening at the city job I typically work during the summer (cutting grass, sucking leaves, plowing snow). I called my old boss there and he offered me a job. - Doesn't pay nearly as well, but it's a nice stop gap. - Doesn't matter either as my wife makes good money and we only have one child.

    So, after considering all of my options (stay at home and try for sick leave, resign and work the city job), I decided to go with option B. I didn't want to stay at home wondering what would happen next with the district. - Would they allow my sick leave or would they not? Would I get in trouble for refusing to go back to that school without first clearing it with the superintendent? What if they stop paying me and demand that I go back to that school. -- These are all questions I didn't want to sit at home pondering while waiting for the process to play itself out. Yeah, I might have been able to get a transfer, but for what?

    This past Tuesday, I submitted my resignation to the principal, union president and to the district's HR. Funny but, as I was checking my emails from school one last time before resigning, I saw that our principal did not see substantial reason to expel from our building the student who created this situation. - The kid gets to call me a fa**ot, get in my face, kick my door, threaten my life, and gets to go right back. - What a horrible, horrible precedent to set for this student and other kids in the building. Essentially telling them they can make teachers victims of abuse with the consequence being a few days off of school.

    I have been teaching for 6 six years and since I started I haven't been the same person. -Waking up at 4 am everyday, hating Sundays because they meant going back on Monday, drinking at least 6 beers a night during the week and then consuming 24-30 beers over the weekend - no joke. - All signs of insurmountable stress brought upon me from teaching. I've tried medication, exercise, etc. None of them work. And please keep in mind that I wasn't the sort of teacher who did things 1/2 way. I was absent less than 10 times in my six years and I had never missed consecutive days. - Not until the incident that started this post.

    I don't regret resigning, but the last two weeks have been the hardest in my life. - The uncertainty that goes along with leaving a job and career behind is stressful in itself. But, as the saying goes -a step back to take two forward.

    Who knows what would happen had I stayed? Maybe in a month this student loses control of himself and begins beating on another student, I break the fight up and get charges pressed on me for hurting one of the kids when I broke the fight up? - Not going to be me. I've done enough for these kids and their parents throughout the years. Their culture is broken and teachers nor administrators have the resources - material, legal, political, to make effective change. - A war that can't be won. My only hope is that more and more teachers follow me out of the profession. My heart goes out to the teachers that have less than 10 years until retirement - too invested to get out.

    For my future, does anybody know how this will impact me professionally - if I try to get another teaching job in a better district?

    Is there still anything I can do legally to the school or student who traumatized me?

    And of course, thanks to all of you for reading and for your feedback.
     
  20. Zelda~*

    Zelda~* Devotee

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    Oct 14, 2017

    Ben,

    The things you mentioned are the very reasons I had to leave teaching Primary ED. In the eight years I taught it, it went from actually helping children manage their behaviors, to mental health issues that were way beyond anything I could effectively help with. Went home covered in bruises. Had a breakdown sobbing in the principal's office one time. The stress was godawful. (It's a broken system, you are absolutely right.)
    I begged for a switch and was granted it for this school year. I'm much happier, my extended family has even noticed.
    I'm not sure about legal actions. Perhaps a lawyer could help?
     
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  21. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 14, 2017

    I would ask the union for legal representation and file a grievance or lawsuit against the district. As part of whatever settlement you agree to, get a letter of recommendation included.
     
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  22. CherryOak

    CherryOak Companion

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    Oct 14, 2017

    Have you considered adding a gen ed endorsement? Disability coordinator at a college? Just some thoughts to throw out there. No matter what, you have my respect for sure. That's a tough situation.
     
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  23. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Oct 14, 2017

    Ben, I am so sorry for your ordeal. Certainly the added information about your alcohol use paints a picture of your stress levels. You have explained yourself quite well, and I only have a single question. What state do you/did you teach in? You have made a decision you can live with, but I would like to know more about SPED laws in other states. Best of luck, and thank you for the update.
     
  24. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    I am so sorry your school failed you and is continuing to fail this student. Take this time to heal and look into some counseling (you possibly will have some PTSD to deal with, not to mention coming down from your alcohol intake). Don't even think about your next teaching job until you have recovered from this ordeal.
     
  25. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Oct 14, 2017

    I of course can't speak for the school and what the powers that be might be thinking, but the fact is that if the kid is behaving this way and nothing is happening for him, the student is indeed being failed. He isn't getting the help he needs.

    Let's be honest: it's clear the rest of the staff and the student body are suffering and in potential danger because of this student, but if we only focus on the troubled student, he is suffering here as well. He is being taught that violent rampages are A-Okay because no one is stopping him. He is being told that all violence is good.
     
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  26. Belch

    Belch Companion

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    Oct 15, 2017

    Here in Japan, parents are responsible for their children. Teachers are responsible for teaching our students.

    Sometimes you have an ineducable student, so you hand them back to their parents and wish them luck.
     
  27. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    Before you resign, I would you suggest you exhaust all other available options. Your union membership should entitle you to receive legal counsel so that you do not have to pay for legal expenses. A lawyer who routinely deals with these matters can advise you about what immediate steps you can take to: 1) have the student removed from the school, 2) have him placed in a more appropriate setting, 3) force the district to protect your rights as a teacher. Nothing works better to get everyone's attention than a warning letter written by an attorney informing all parties of the potential liability that exists if they continue to ignore the problem. Anything else that you might do would be a waste of time and will just allow the district to resume their foot-dragging.
     
  28. IcyRock

    IcyRock Rookie

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    "Nothing works better to get everyone's attention than a warning letter written by an attorney informing all parties of the potential liability that exists if they continue to ignore the problem. Anything else that you might do would be a waste of time and will just allow the district to resume their foot-dragging."

    This is probably the best advice I've seen. People tend to straighten up once they get a letter from a lawyer. It's funny. I just encountered a student like this today. I teach K-5. My special ed experience has taught me that you need to teach kids compliance, no matter what their issues are. However, if I get push back from 5th graders that are the same size or bigger than me, I use my judgment and either leave them alone to sort out their feelings or call administration immediately to have them removed. The student in question was five, however. I wasn't having that. I was trying to set a precedent in the room that you don't get to tell adults what to do, no matter how much you argue or fight. Thankfully, the counselor took him out of the area because of setting off the other kids, then the principal intervened as well. I am so thankful for admins' support, because without that, it makes one's job harder than it has to be.
     
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  29. Been There

    Been There Habitué

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    Oct 17, 2017

    As a retired special ed. teacher, my specialized training came in handy on a daily basis. You are the first one to openly recognize the "need to teach kids compliance, no matter what their issues are". By consistently adhering to this practice, I was actually able to eliminate all discipline problems even though I had a caseload of 40 students in my final year. BTW, in over 33 years, I never had the pleasure of working under a supportive principal such as yours (who is probably the rare exception).
     
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  30. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Oct 24, 2017

    Why does such common sense escape so many administrators? Are they biologically deficient? Are they hired on the basis of moral bankruptcy? What Bizarro world is this that ineptitude is the hallmark of school administration?

    Why teach compliance? Well, eventually, these kids won't be in school, with administrators to chase them down the hallway, to give them hugs and candy and video games. Eventually, these kids will be dropped into the real world, where a cop having a bad day is going to shoot them dead for not complying. So, compliance isn't quite such a bad lesson to learn.

    Instead, our administrators reinforce bad behaviors. Our administrators do everything they can to permanently hard-wire these unbalanced brains to defy and antagonize authority. The hand-holding nincompoops I've seen in charge make me ashamed to be a teacher.

    Like Ben, I'm disgusted with the entire nasty, self-serving, corrupt, fraudulent, hypocritical, sanctimonious machine. Indiana does such inhuman disservice to its children that I have come to regard the entire system as something evil to its core. I fear that one day this year or the next, a kid is going to come after me, and then I'll be here spilling my guts and outlining my escape, as well.

    Indiana fails its children at the most basic, foundational levels. No one should raise a family in this state, let alone send their children to its schools.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  31. miss-m

    miss-m Devotee

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    This is a really helpful way to think about this. The idea of "You do what an adult says" has bothered me in more difficult schools, because as an adult I wouldn't want someone telling me that I had no say in doing what I'm told. But compliance as a life skill with a boss or other authority figure is very valuable, and learning how to say no respectfully and appropriately is something else entirely. Thanks for explaining this so well!
     
  32. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 24, 2017

    You are both assuming the child/children have control over the behavior.
     
  33. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Most training now advises to avoid teaching students to do whatever an adult says because it can lead to manipulation and abuse of children.

    Training advised to explain reasonableness to even the youngest students.
     
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  34. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Oct 25, 2017

    I did not explain this well. I did not provide any surprising insight. This is grassroots common sense stuff every teacher already knows.

    I understand the selfish need to simply "get through the day." I understand how much easier it is in the short term to pacify the parent of a troubled child. I understand how at the district level, the directive to keep student dollars at any cost drives the lunacy that perverts school discipline. And if I know it, every teacher knows it.

    But what is truly evil, what overshadows mere self-preservation, is the willingness and even the eagerness with which administrators sacrifice the education of 90% of children just to placate the other 10%. The negative effect of poor discipline policy on teachers, in terms of professional, mental, and physical health, is nothing more than a BONUS in the eyes of administrators. But more foolhardy still is the willful sabotaging of the most vulnerable troubled youth. The enabling and empowering of antisocial behavior has lifelong consequences that are ignored for the sake of doctoring discipline reports and holding on to another source of funding.

    This represent actual an evil in education.

    These forums have an Ignore button that makes it easier to shut out antisocial behavior, but our schools do not. When we choose to empower antisocial behavior instead of changing it, we are ensuring our own well-deserved destruction.
     
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  35. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 25, 2017

    Couldn’t you say the same thing about low level students dragging down the rigor of instruction?
     
  36. Ben B.

    Ben B. Rookie

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    Oct 25, 2017

    Hello again folks! It's been over 3 weeks since I resigned and I feel great. My city job doesn't pay as much but I can make the difference up in other ways. My health is way better and my drinking has been cut by no joke 75%. My head is no longer knotted up at the end of the day. However, I don't want to un-motivate those of you that have a couple more months until winter break, so I'll stop.

    To the user named "Always Attend" I think you're trying to fog up the issue at hand - and this is exactly why so many kids are in trouble. Because some teachers and some administrators don't target the problem behavior, rather they go through the motions, - selfishly go through the motions to avoid the ramifications of trying to fix direly inappropriate, unsafe, and altogether illegal behavior. I have never been one to tell a kid to "do what I say because I'm an adult". Rather, I've always been one to explain why a certain behavior is expected, why it is important to learning, and what the positive and negative consequences are if a certain behavior isn't exhibited by a student. However, some, not all, but some students (especially the one that prompted this entire post) have gone through elementary school, middle school, and high school with behavior that can be described as destructive, violent, and unsafe. - And too many of these students are never met with a consequence that tells them their behavior is going to land them in jail (like so many others before them). For years, so many of these kids have thrown chairs, punched people, kicked people, threatened people, and the only consequence they have received is a suspension or change of placement. - Little do they know that their behavior, especially once they turn 18, is worthy of a trip to prison. Little do they know that cops aren't teachers and that no principal, no mommy or grand mommy or daddy can save them and excuse their behavior once they've had charges pressed against them. As for low level students dragging down the rigor of instruction - that has zero to do with kids not being punished for their behavior before it's too late. - Not an appropriate comparison at all. Teachers are trained to minimize the effects of students who need intervention on other students' progress. However, teachers are not there to be victimized by kids and parents.
     
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  37. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 25, 2017

    I stand by my example.

    Death penalty or heavy sedation seems like the only solution then.
     
  38. Ben B.

    Ben B. Rookie

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    Oct 25, 2017

    I don't agree. I think more parental involvement, and swifter action taken by principals and districts is the better way to help kids. Parent's can keep up to date with their kids doctor visits - psychologists, physicians, etc. if they don't want their kids on medicine, I understand, but it's their kid and their responsibility to find the necessary counseling services their child needs - it's not the teacher's responsibility to do this. Parents can also have their kids tour local prisons to see what they're looking at if they don't develop coping strategies to control their violent tendencies. - Again, parents should schedule this, not teachers. And we've reached the heart of the problem. So many of these kids need help from their parents and are getting neglected at home - deprived of counseling, medicine, expectations, etc. When I first started teaching I would go out of my way to help these kids. Granted, I couldn't (and shouldn't be expected to) schedule doctor visits and the like, but I used to spend lunch and planning periods providing counseling, showing videos, etc. It worked on a couple kids, not all. However, as my career developed, the skipped lunches, the skipped planning periods, the after school sessions and tutoring, the coming in on spring break, etc - all of these things were ignored by the state, and instead of being acknowledged or compensated for doing extra, I and all of my colleagues were given more mandates by the state. - Mandatory teacher based team meetings for 60 minutes a week, mandator professional development for 60 minutes a week, mandatory community engagement, - on top of being expected to raise test scores. Unfortunately, while my days of volunteering my own time and money helped out a few kids in the beginning, nothing could stop the tidal wave that has developed over the last few years in education. I stopped volunteering my lunch, planning, and after school time last year. - Instead I spent that time completing many of the state mandates I mentioned before. Heading into this school year I promised myself that I would use only school time to complete all school work and work mandated by the state. And things were going okay. That is, until I was threatened within an inch of my life by a seventh grader who is obviously being neglected by his parents and the administration in our district. Not any more. Never again. I have an 8 year old child of my own who needs me. I have a wife who needs me. Now is the time for me to focus on my child, and not be a pseudo parent to people who neglect their children. I put in my service to the culture that is at the heart of America's decay. It's time for somebody else to step up and teach these kids for a solid 6 years like I did.
     
    alp123, AmyMyNamey and Belch like this.
  39. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Phenom

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    Oct 25, 2017

    No, students need stricter punishment, not just suspension or change of placement, as aforementioned by Ben B. Students who exhibit violent and destructive behavior, in particular, should be dealt with by security staff and isolated or escorted from school grounds as SOON as it happens. If the bad behavior continues, the administration should elevate it to the authorities and let them handle it.
     
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  40. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Oct 25, 2017

    I think what is often forgotten in these forums is reality. Every child is entitled to an education. Add in the element of a diagnosed disability and now discrimination comes into play.

    I try to live in the real world, rather than pretend I can think my wishes into reality.

    I can sympathize with the plight of the OP, but that’s all I can actually do.
     

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