Is this legal?

Discussion in 'Special Education' started by terptoteacher, Jan 28, 2011.

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  1. terptoteacher

    terptoteacher Connoisseur

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    Jan 28, 2011

    Our new slp brought an iep to me. She wanted me to sign on the line where it says who was in attendence. I was not there. I was not invited to the meeting.
    Is it common practice to have an iep and not include the general ed teacher or a district or admin rep?
     
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  3. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Jan 28, 2011

    I have no idea.

    But I wouldn't sign a form saying I had been at a meeting that I hadn't been to.

    My word is worth more than that.
     
  4. Mark94544

    Mark94544 Companion

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    Jan 28, 2011

    You asked two questions.

    No, it is not legal.

    But yes, it is common practice, in some schools and districts. Thy simply ignore the legal requirement to notify and invite all the student's teachers to the IEP meeting, and to provide substitute teachers, nor even to ask for input from the teachers -- and forget about actually implementing the IEP. (In some schools, parental requests for IEPs go straight into the trash, unless the parent has demanded and obtained a dated receipt confirming the request.)

    When I was placed in the same situation, I refused to sign. I was never asked again. I've always assumed that my signature was later forged on the document -- and probably on many others. I never got any copies.
     
  5. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    It happens all the time. I tell the parent...you have the right to stop the meeting since so and so is not here. If the meeting continues the Gen Ed teacher and the LEA sign the IEP. Sometimes, I have parents that cannot get off work to come to school and IEP's are conducted over the phone...we still get sigs (copy mailed to parent)Also, I can often get a parent to come at lunch time...but the LEA is always in the lunch room and the Gen Ed teacher is taking her lunch. It's hard to have a legal IEP. This year more and more parents are telling me that they don't dare take time off work. I had an IEP last week at 6 p.m. It was just me and the parent. That one was creepy...I'm not going to do that again. (building was empty)...but I always invite them.
     
  6. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    Jan 28, 2011

    I always invite the LEA and the gen ed teacher. It is the law.
     
  7. skittleroo

    skittleroo Connoisseur

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    Jan 28, 2011

    do not sign
     
  8. SwOcean Gal

    SwOcean Gal Devotee

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    Jan 28, 2011

    Good question- I have wondered that too.

    What is an LEA?
     
  9. Lindager

    Lindager Companion

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    Jan 28, 2011

    As the parent of special ed children I always went to the IEP and made sure no one who was not there signed. My sister has 2 special Ed children and she works 38 hours in 4 days a week. She has often been told they can't do the IEP on friday her day off. She has had to have some IEP meetings over the phone. I have never thought to have her check who signs I will remind her in the future.

    If I were you I would refuse to sign and tell them I'm sorry I was not at that meeting and I can not leagally sign.
     
  10. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    LEA stands for a representative of the local education agency( the Principal or Vice-principal. As for the sigs... I have never had a teacher refuse to sign (they could always attend our weekly team meeting where the IEP is discussed) But if one was uncomfortable I would just type up a letter that the Gen ed teacher was not available to come and that the parent chose to continue the meeting and attach to the IEP) Sometimes a parent doesn't show up to a scheduled IEP meeting. The team would then hold the meeting without the parent (this is legal) I think most gen ed teachers are willing to attend if it is not outside their contract hours. But I don't blame them for not wanting to work for free. Our gen ed teachers are already working for free Wed and Thurs when they have after school tutoring. I feel it is my responsibility to meet when the parent can, but I understand why other teachers can't. Friday's are our early out day and we have to attend meetings for 2 1/2 hours. So, I avoid Friday (but I had one tonight and the gen ed teacher and the school psychologist both stayed.) The P did come by for a couple of minutes. (legally the LEA is suppose to stay for the whole meeting.) The system is not perfect and there aren't enough SPED teachers to handle the paperwork. I will be honest and tell you that I am frustrated that parents can't come to an IEP meeting during contract hours so that the whole team can be there. It is what it is. The student can't suffer because the parent can't/won't take the time to come during the school day.
     
  11. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    Jan 28, 2011

    As others have noted, it is indeed against the law to conduct an IEP meeting without a general education teacher, although absences are allowed usually through the completion of an excusal form by the staff member and the signature of the parent to acknowledge that they accept the member will not be there.

    If a general education teacher (or other appropriate individual) is not present, the parent has the right to request the meeting be rescheduled and the school must comply. The school can continue with the IEP meeting without the parent if they can demonstrate all appropriate measures were taken to contact the parent and make arrangements.

    A special education teacher, general education teacher, LEA rep, parent/guardian and student (dependent on age) are legally required to be in an IEP meeting for its duration, unless excused.

    The LEA Rep can really be anyone (appointed by a principal/vice-principal etc) and people on the team can serve multiple roles. For example, in a re-evaluation, schools will often have psychologists serve the dual role of psych and LEA rep.

    Unfortunately, the law is often ignored and the IEP document is often left legally out of compliance. To be honest, I don't even think they would go to the effort of forging your signature. IEP documents are rarely looked at by anyone other than the SPED teacher/case manager for the student and are usually filed away somewhere in a district office never to be checked again. Unless the district is under academic watch status or similar (as ours is), the chances of the state board actually auditing the SPED department for IEP compliance is slim. Most parents are also not particularly aware of their rights with regards to IEPs and rarely would take the steps to have something done about non-compliance. Thus, the cycle continues.
     
  12. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    Well, we are audited. I document everything. I am only out of compliance on one IEP. I was out of compliance because I waited for a parent 3 days past the IEP due date. It was caught in an audit. I was told what the requirements were (legally) and that I should have held the IEP with the team. I would never forge a signature. Why would I? I can document and attach to the IEP. The IEP's are not in a district office. They are in a locked room attached to the resource room. I attend a cross curricular team meeting weekly (inclusion) with the Language Arts teacher, Science teacher, reading teacher, and History teacher. We always use the students goals in the IEP as a tool. I DO feel that that while technically my IEP's are legal (with parent permission)( the sigs that I collect for those not in attendence must be mailed to the parent) that Dave G's statement, "Most parents are also not particularly aware of their rights with regards to IEPs" is correct. At the beginning of each IEP meeting I give the parents a copy of their procedural safeguards and ask them if they would like me to go over it with them as it details their rights. They answer no. In my district the LEA is only the P of VP. Wish it was the psychologist..I am going to bring this up at my next district meeting. Thanks for the info Dave. Also, Dave's statement about holding the IEP meeting without the parents is correct and that must be documented. A SPED teacher can have to testify in court and documentation is critical. I am curious as to what the rest of you think a SPED teacher should do? I don't know when my next district meeting is....I just attended one this past Wednesday...but I am going to bring up the LEA info. Any other suggestions?
     
  13. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    Jan 29, 2011

    I would certainly recommend to your principal that your district considers appointing others in your buildings (psychs, members of your building leadership team etc) as designated LEA reps. It has saved our district a LOT of hassle (I teach in a high school and administrators are impossible to find when you need them).

    IEP documents are usually kept in multiple locations (the school site and usually also a central file in the district office), to avoid losing them in fire or other damage. This is especially important if you don't use a computerized system.

    As you mentioned donziejo, I have the same thing every time with asking parents if they would like to review their procedural rights and safeguards. Always a no.
     
  14. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    I would certainly recommend to your principal that your district considers appointing others in your buildings (psychs, members of your building leadership team etc) as designated LEA reps. It has saved our district a LOT of hassle (I teach in a high school and administrators are impossible to find when you need them).

    IEP documents are usually kept in multiple locations (the school site and usually also a central file in the district office), to avoid losing them in fire or other damage. This is especially important if you don't use a computerized system.

    As you mentioned donziejo, I have the same thing every time with asking parents if they would like to review their procedural rights and safeguards. Always a no.
     
  15. skittleroo

    skittleroo Connoisseur

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    Jan 29, 2011

    we have to read procedural safeguards to the parents.
     
  16. mopar

    mopar Multitudinous

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    Jan 29, 2011

    I would not sign and I would ask why I wasn't invited to the meeting if they need my signature.

    As for parents not doing anything...it really depends where you work. In my district, parents sometimes know their rights better than some of the staff. We have a few parents (probably a handful K-8) who really know their rights and will make sure that every i is dotted and t is crossed. Good thing that we will only hold meetings during the school day and most parents can make it during this time (I think that last year, I only have 1 parent who need a phone conference out of the 23 special education students that I saw throughout the day).
     
  17. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    Mopar, I always invite by e-mail and by printing out a computer generated letter. Either myself or my para hand delivers the letter. Skittleroo, our procedural safeguards is a booklet. Do you have something you read that is more user friendly? I do have access to brochure's from our state's local Parent center. It's a great place for parents to go and find out their rights. I just don't seem to have much interest from the parents. I work closely with our school psychologist, and if she could sign as the LEA half my battle would be over. There is also 1 math teacher I can count on if she is available. Mopar, how do you have IEP meeting's during the day other then lunch time? I am in the classroom teaching. I do get paid for teaching an extra class....our classrooms are already 32-38 students. I have 32 students on my caseload...and I know we just got 4 more students that transfered in. Hopefully, I am not going to be their case manager. I have to plead with teachers to help cover me (during there prep time) so that I can test. I have 2 reevals in March. I guess this sounds like I am complaining but I honestly am not. I am just doing everything I can to take care of the students and make sure there IEP's reflect what they need. I will really rethink the sig issue. I could always do the documentation. As I have read the post's I am really having second thoughts about having team members sign that were invited but did not attend.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  18. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    Jan 29, 2011

    Dave, our IEP's are computerized.They have been for the past several years. Thanks everyone for the input!
     
  19. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    Jan 29, 2011

    donziejo,

    Like mopar, I also have all my IEP meetings scheduled during the school day. Subs are provided for myself and the gen. ed teacher that is present.

    I didn't quite figure it out from your posts, but are you teaching self-contained special education?
     
  20. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    I co-teach. I work with a gen ed Language/Arts teacher and have 1pre-algebra co-taught class. I also have 2 Direct study classes that I teach alone. One is 9th grade and the other is 8th grade. The 9th grade direct study class is the extra class I teach. Direct studies is when I basically reteach Language/Arts. I am jealous that you can get a sub during the day. I don't know of any district in my state that does that. Next year I will have a prep period. My P knows that my schedule is crazy.
     
  21. Kate Change

    Kate Change Companion

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    We don't do any IEPs without general ed teachers or principal reps. Ever. If we can't get the general ed teacher who has been working with the child, we will use a different general ed teacher and the admin rep is often a different person everytime. We were told that no matter what the parent approves we just can't hold meetings with out these two people.
     
  22. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Jan 31, 2011

    Remember, LEA reps are anyone who is able to make an informed decision for the district (In terms of funds AND knowledge of the disability(ies) in question)
     
  23. kimrandy1

    kimrandy1 Enthusiast

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    Our IEP meetings are always on Thursdays. We don't have any self-contained classes in our building, and the special ed teachers arrange their pull-out and step-in schedules so that Thursdays are ALWAYS available. There is usually a sub for the classroom teacher, too - HOWEVER, there have been times a sub won't pick up the job and/or never shows. Then, the classroom teacher can't always attend (I have an aide, so I'm lucky...I can arrange my day so that it's a very easy time, like snack, and step out for a few minutes to attend a meeting.). But we are always invited by a computer generated email, and we always have the chance to attend.

    That said, I forget who said that the school won't meet on Fridays...we only do Thursdays, as well. Period. I know our SPED team has come in as early as 6 AM to meet with parents, but only on Thursdays. There is just no sub money to cover them for another day, and then an additional sub for the classroom teacher (on top of the usual thursday sub).

    Kim
     
  24. bros

    bros Phenom

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    The school would be unable to use that as a reason if the parent were to complain with OCR or file Due Process.
     
  25. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    Correct. The parents have the right to reschedule on another day if Thursdays do not work for them.
     
  26. SpecialPreskoo

    SpecialPreskoo Moderator

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    Our IEPs have a place at the bottom to sign if you weren't the but had input on the IEP. Our OT may not be able to make it to the IEP but her info is in there. She could sign at the bottom later but not where it says who was there at the meeting.
     
  27. CandorWit

    CandorWit Rookie

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    What purpose does it serve to have a general education teacher at the IEP meeting who isn't familiar with the child? The purpose of an IEP meeting isn't to jump through the hoops to complete paperwork, it's to critically assess and plan the education plan and development for the child.
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    A general ed teacher knows about the curriculum and the daily operations of the classroom. They also know the most about actually having to implement the IEP, so they can provide information about the workability of the plan. Their input during the IEP process, even if they don't know the student, is crucial.
     
  29. clarnet73

    clarnet73 Moderator

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    I sign both gen ed and special ed most of the time... I'm considered both since I teach both.

    Our EC coordinator normally attends our meetings and can be the LEA rep. Occasionally, speech-only kids have a meeting with jsut the SLP and the parent... then they don't sign that there's a teacher present (these are mostly just the minor articulation error kids that really doesn't affect their academic performance at all) and the SLP signs the speech line and the LEA line.

    Our IEPs are computerized, and ther's a box when you put in the invited individuals and then a box for who actually came... if there are people not in attendance who were invited (like if the SLP is out of town or whatever), we tell the parents in advance, then they sign the waver that prints out from the computer. We always tell them that they're welcome to reschedule if they want everyone there, but usually they're satisfied by us telling them that "the team talked and together, we felt..." The missing people are always available by phone/email at a later date if the parents want to discuss.
     
  30. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    I would have to disagree. The point in the meeting is to determine what is best for the individual student and how they do/would function in the gen. ed environment. If the gen ed teacher does not know or interact with the student nor will they be responsible for their instruction, then the validity of their input is extremely limited. We all know what the curriculum is and the generalities of general education, regardless of role. The purpose is to provide the specifics of how a student will function in a specific setting.
     
  31. DaveG

    DaveG Companion

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    As to the first part, it is generally preferable if there is another teacher there (are there other gen. ed teachers the student interacts with).

    For the second part, this meeting would be considered out of compliance. The SLP alone cannot make sufficient determinations with regards to an IEP. If the student's educational performance is not affected by their disability, then there is no reason for them to have an IEP at all. Receiving speech services under the IDEA category as a disability should include something other than just speech. If the speech disability is significant enough to affect their academic performance, then there should be other goals (reading, writing etc usually).

    As for the SLP signing as LEA rep, is this just what your school does or are SLPs given that authority by the school district? From an outside perspective, it just seems like your school is cutting a lot of corners.
     
  32. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    You're free to disagree with me, just like I will disagree with you. It's not accurate to say "we all know what the curriculum is". For example, the special ed teachers at my school don't know what my curriculum is. It's not that they are incompetent idiots or anything like that; it's that they can't know everything about everything and they don't know what specific things I need to teach in my subject area in a given year. There are certainly some topics and activities which might be difficult for a special ed student with particular issues, especially if accommodations aren't made for the student. A special ed teacher might not think to ask for specific accommodations if they aren't aware of the special requirements of a general ed class. As the general ed teacher, I can make sure that those things are covered. As the general ed teacher, I can look at the student's education from a different perspective, one which is important.

    The fact is that it's not always possible to get the student's general ed teachers to the IEP meeting. If the meeting is scheduled for 9 AM and none of the general ed teachers have prep that period, then that's the way it is. Someone else, equally qualified as a general ed teacher, will have to come to the meeting. Of course it's not ideal, but it's not completely meaningless either.
     
  33. CanukTeach

    CanukTeach Companion

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    This thread is so interesting! I am a special education teacher in Ontario, Canada. Our General Ed teachers NEVER come to our IPRCs (where we examine the IEP) and the law says simply 3 educators, including one administrator. So different! I wish our classroom teachers could attend the meetings but I can't imagine the cost for 8 classroom teachers to attend each meeting!
     
  34. bros

    bros Phenom

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    For the middle/high school level (for me at least) it was one of the teachers would come. Typically whichever was available, or one that taught a class that I was having difficulty with
     
  35. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Here is the law from IDEA 2004

    Please note (ii). This is different than IDEA 97 which allowed for any general education teacher to be present. Rules changed a LONG time ago. Notice every time a teacher or service provider of sorts is mentioned it contains verbage to indicate the person know the child. If you hold the IEP meeting without meeting the requirements, it is a procedural violation.

    IDEA 2004, Section 1414(d)(1)(B), the IEP team includes:

    (i) the parents of a child with a disability;

    (ii) not less than 1 regular education teacher of such child (if the child is, or may be, participating in the regular education environment;

    (iii) not less than 1 special education teacher, or where appropriate, not less than 1 special education provider of such child;

    (iv) a representative of the local educational agency . . .

    (v) an individual who can interpret the instructional implications of evaluation results . . .

    (vi) at the discretion of the parent of the agency, other individuals who have knowledge or special expertise regarding the child, including related services personnel as appropriate; and

    (vii) whenever appropriate, the child with a disability.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  36. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    I fully support this.
    I have had to go to several IEP meetings where the psychiatrists wanted to push these spec ed kids into my classroom full time asap. Without me being there they wouldn't have known that we were working on PARAGRAPHS, not sentences like the spec ed was TRYING to get them to do and how we were working on subtracting and adding multiple digit numbers with regrouping where the spec ed teacher was doing basic facts with them.
    It's a real eye opener to have a reg. ed. teacher there.
     
  37. bros

    bros Phenom

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    They should try to get one of the gen ed teacher of the student there if at all possible (and have the ones that aren't present fill out a survey on how the student is doing, etc.)
     
  38. DaveG

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    I do not disagree on the importance of a general education teacher being present in an IEP meeting. Not only is it the law, but it's also prudent that a student's education be looked at from multiple perspectives.

    What I disagree with is that the general education teacher selected to attend having no knowledge of the individual student. As a2z pointed out, IDEA was changed to reflect this for both general and special education teachers. Having a gen.ed teacher weigh in on individualized educational decisions for a student they do not know nor will ever interact with is akin to a special education teacher, like myself, writing an IEP for a student that is not on my caseload nor have I ever met.

    While it is of course very difficult to get everyone together in the room at the same time, it is the law and it is best for that student if those who actually teach him/her attend the meeting. Thus, we should be doing whatever it takes to ensure these meetings are being held in compliance.
     
  39. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I once saw a PE teacher (IEP meeting out of compliance) used as the general education teacher of record. The student needed an accommodation of a calculator. The PE teacher balked and talked about how unfair it is for the student to be allowed such an accommodation and how it is unacceptable for the teacher to have to try to explain why the other kids don't get one. Well the student with the IEP had math application levels in the high 80% but fluency in the 3%. PE teacher never met the student nor did this "gen ed" teacher know anything about an academic classroom. I'm thinking IDEA didn't go far enough in that the teacher need also know the subject matter in which the disability will interfere with the curriculum.

    Wonder if Mr. PE would have let the student with a prothstesis keep his leg?
     
  40. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    That's what I was saying. I am a general ed teacher and was in that situation I explained twice.
     
  41. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    True and believe me I balk EVERY time I have to attend a meeting. I once had 3 meetings in 2 days. I was mad! At first I thought "well, I never see these kids why do i even have to be there" UNTIL.....the push began for 2 of my full time spec ed kids to be put into my classroom IMMEDIATELY. THAT'S when I was glad I was in attendance. I was able to state to everyone where my class is academically and what they had already done (WAYYY past what spec ed was on) I was able to defend my classroom and that child (even though I had no interaction with them besides a casual hello) by telling the psychiatrist that I have a class of 32 and for these full time spec ed kids to go from a classroom of 7 to a classroom of 32 would be detrimental. I, as well as my principal, had to do a LOT of convincing to get them to see that shoving them into a regular ed classroom is NOT for the best.
     
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