Is it possible to honestly love animals but still eat meat?

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by orangetea, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    .... what an interesting short story. It made me think about the people who wake up during surgery but can't move or talk. Ick. Anyways, how horrible would that be to be in that predicament?
     
  2. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    And I don't think we think enough. And I doubt you and I would come close to agreeing here, so I have nothing more to add.
     
  3. Rabbitt

    Rabbitt Connoisseur

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    Dec 7, 2012

    YES!
    I love, LOVe LOVE animals
    and I still eat them too.
    I SOBBED when I hit and killed a deer with my truck yet enjoyed the sausage she gave us.

    I do beleive they are part of the food chain for humans.
     
  4. kellyr

    kellyr Rookie

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    I have not read all the replies to this post, but I have been a vegetarian for the past 3 years. Prior to that, I pretty much did not enjoy eating meat since I was in elementary school. My dad, uncles, grandpas, brother, etc. were all big hunters. My dad would take me with him, and even got me a shotgun as an xmas gift when I was in middle school :dizzy: I hated hunting and hated that they smiled in pictures with the deer hanging upside down, with blood and guts spilling out the stomach. I think it pretty much sealed the deal for me to become a vegetarian. I became unable to separate the images in my head of slaughtered animals from the meat on my plate.

    That being said, my 3 year old daughter eats meat. I don't know enough about how vegetarianism affects children, so I'm not going to risk a health issue with that. (I do slip here some vegetarian things here and there that she thinks are chicken....lol) When she's old enough to understand I'll let her know why I'm vegetarian and that she can do whatever she wants.

    Why am I going off about my personal life?? Lol I think the question is too difficult for me, I can't say I have a strong opinion either way. :dizzy:
     
  5. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    I don't see any such attitude.
     
  6. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    Taking the stand of not eating meat BECAUSE you love animals is foolhardy if you enjoy eating meat. I think there certainly is merit in (e.g.) eating meat from humanely raised/slaughtered sources (or hunted meat). But to totally abstain from it just because you love animals only deprives yourself. The fact is, as someone who lives in a industrialized society, one can't escape the effects of exploitation on "lesser" beings, no matter what you do. The key is: to be knowledgeable and use that knowledge the best you can.

    Do you love people? If you do, you have to justify why you shop at Costco or Target (who among other things, have poor records of social responsibility). If you drive a car to work, how do you justify the human rights violations of companies you get gas from (e.g. Exxon Mobil). If you drink Coca-Cola, how do you reconcile the major boycotts against them. If you put Kraft mayo on your sandwiches, how do you justify Kraft and its major funding of Washington lobbyists? These are all real issues, and by supporting them, can you then say you really love people? After all, there are people being exploited on the other end of your mayonnaise jar.

    Your quest, your PRICE for the sheer luck of you being born in this country, should be to become a conscientious shopper. That's it. The price of your life in America is/should be to shop intelligently, and "sacrifice" when it is applicable. That doesn't mean you can't eat meat, or drive a car. What it means is that, the LEAST you can do, is wear Levi's clothing (even though it may not be as stylish as the clothes you buy at Macy's), or pay a little more to shop at a store that cares (e.g. Whole Foods) vs. a store that maybe costs a little less but causes all kinds of $h-t (Ralph's).
     
  7. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Dec 7, 2012

    **
     
  8. SpecialPreskoo

    SpecialPreskoo Moderator

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    Dec 7, 2012

    I love steaks, hamburgers, chicken, fish, turkey, ham, etc.

    I loved my dog when I had one. I wouldn't eat dog meat though. I love my guinea pigs but I wouldn't eat them either. I've had fish but they were too small to eat. We raised chickens when I was a kid and I ate them and their eggs. We raised rabbits when I was a kid and enjoyed the fried rabbit and rabbit dumplins.

    To each his own, but if you don't want your steak, pass it to me.
     
  9. PolarBear

    PolarBear Rookie

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    I think of it more in terms of Food Chain than I do Animal Rights. A Polar Bear is a highly intelligent animal. He's also at the top of his respective food chain. Simply put, if it moves, and it's accessable, it's on the menu. That includes us, if we were unlucky enough to encounter one, unarmed, in his domain.

    Anyone have a cat? Try to explain to Fluffy why you aren't going to feed it any meat products. Fluffy's vet too, while you're at it.
     
  10. Accountable

    Accountable Companion

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    We had livestock when I was a kid. the cows had names. The chickens didn't (too many, I guess). I fed the chickens, caught them, watched my dad kill them, then helped clean them before enjoying whatever wonderful chicken dish my mom cooked up.

    When we drank milk, we would compare which cow's milk tasted sweeter. Then when we slaughtered them, we would tell stories over our steak dinner about the silly things they did when they were calves.

    In my travels, I've eaten snake, armadillo, bear, deer, raw fish, eel, and even dog. It was all delicious.

    I've got no problem if people want to be vegetarians, or even vegans. I don't have a problem when people judge me, even when they have no frame of reference. The only time I become concerned is when people try to make everyone abide by their own moral system through force of law.

    Have a salad, with my blessing.
     
  11. Ranchwife

    Ranchwife Companion

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    Dec 8, 2012

    Very well put. That is also why I refuse to wear anything made by Nike, or support the University of Oregon even though they are my alma matter. Nike's use of child labor makes me sick, and the fact that the school stopped the protesting of this and expelled the student protestors is horrible.

    If you can't eat meat because it pains you to think about the living critter they were before they became dinner, then don't eat meat. If you don't like the flavor or consistency of meat, then don't eat it. But like stated in the previous post, don't look down on those of us who do. Just the same, we should never look down on those who don't eat meat.
     
  12. Securis

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    Dec 8, 2012

    I've been pretty involved in this thread and I'm pretty sure no one jumped out there saying, "Veggie eaters good, meat eaters bad!" It's just evolved into that discussion somehow.
     
  13. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    Dec 8, 2012

    :agreed:
     
  14. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Dec 8, 2012

    I'm pretty sure that started when someone responded to my post with the phrase "holier than thou", and then another member picked that up and ran with it...and here we are. :rolleyes:

    I don't think what I said was at all "holier than thou", but I will state that it does bother me when people refuse to consider the process. They don't want to hear and see the truth, and that frustrates me. Others have seen it and work it and obviously still eat meat...they have their reasons and I can "appreciate" that. People hunt, kill, clean, cook, and eat animals and obiously they're okay with that process. Again, I can "appreciate" that. But if an investigation reports unimaginable conditions and abuse of livestock and people say, literally, "I don't want to know about that!"...yeah, it bothers me. I still don't consider than to be arrogant because I just want people to know and make a decision based on facts...whatever that decison would be. Of course I have a preference, but... :)
     
  15. John Lee

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    That is ignorance at its worst level.
     
  16. Accountable

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    Dec 8, 2012

    Well put, JustMe.
     
  17. Ms. I

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    Dec 8, 2012

    Yes and no. It depends on how you want to answer the question.

    If someone wants to answer the question from a truly moral/ethical standpoint, he/she would probably say NO. He/she would want to leave all animals alone on this earth to live and enjoy life too because he/she loves animals so much.

    On the other hand, the answer could be YES. A person can loves animals, yet will say, we have cows, chickens, fish, etc. on this earth & man eats those things since they're a type of food that many people enjoy eating.
     
  18. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    I'm a vegetarian and I'm pretty sure my friends would never say that I have a holier than though attitude. I have, however, had many meat eaters make fun of me and taunt me over the years. Hmm, interesting how that works, huh?

    Anyways, I totally agree with all that you said, JustMe in this post.
     
  19. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

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    Dec 9, 2012

    I eat meat, and I hunt. I also love vegetables, and include them in every meal.
    I love animals. It pains me when I see humans mistreat animals, yet I know it is this way and has been long before I arrived on this Earth.
    I think you can love animals yet still eat meat.
     
  20. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Dec 9, 2012

    You're right that animal neglect, abuse, and torture has been happening far longer than we've been alive. All the more reason for it to finally end.
     
  21. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    Just because bad things happen doesn't mean you have to play a role. That's a cop out.

    Anyway, those arguments could apply to our teaching too. Let's just give up now because most of the kids don't care and are going to drop out anyway.

    Being veg isn't about being perfect, it's about doing ones best. I take medications that I need. So what? That doesn't mean I also need to eat meat or eggs from tortured chickens (they are exempt from most cruelty laws) or wear cosmetics that have been tested on animals.

    I do have leather shoes. With my severe back issue, I have to be picky about shoes. This means I have 2 pairs, not 10, and I keep them for many years. When I can find appropriate cruelty free shoes, I'll switch, but I still won't waste what I already have. I also buy expensive clothes not made in sweatshops and I keep what I have, take care of it, and get years of enjoyment and wear. I spend less overall than friends who buy bags of disposable stuff from Old Navy, Target, and Walmart. That's my choice.

    This whole attitude about how not being perfect about x, y, or z means you just do nothing really stinks. What would the world be like if we all lived by that philosophy?

    If people truly do love animals, and not just the fluffy cute ones, I believe they would examine their other choices and adjust accordingly, even it is to just consume fewer animal products. This seems to offend people, but I don't see why. If its important to you to love animals, then follow through. If it isn't, don't get huffy about it. It's your choice and your priorities to set.

    Personally, I love cows more than I'd ever want to eat a steak, so I can find something else to eat. And I can make my Mac and "cheese" with a yummy cashew sauce instead of milk. No sacrifices necessary. I love to cook and I love to eat.
     
  22. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    HHmmmmm, can you share the recipe?

    I was listening to a podcast during my run this morning that reminded me of this thread. It was about sacrificing animals on This American Life. I encourage you guys to listen to it, if you are in to podcasts.
     
  23. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    There a few different ones that I rotate. Two I love are the blog at theppk.com. Butternet Alfredo and Sunflower Mac. The Butternut Alfredo is insanely rich and delicious.

    The sunflower Mac is comforting and bland in that boxed Mac and cheese way. You can tinker with it pretty easily.

    Most of the others I've been making are from a cookbook that will be out next fall, so I can't share recipes, but if you google for vegan cashew sauce or cheese, there are so many these days. Cashew sauces seem to be the "thing" this year.
     
  24. Accountable

    Accountable Companion

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    Dec 10, 2012

    I like that. :thumb:
     
  25. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    I am sorry...but I totally disagree with you. I have a farm. I raise lambs. We sell our lambs for slaughter. Our lambs are cared for in better conditions than some of the kids I teach. They are not abused or treated inhumanly. The BULL that the media puts out about ranchers and farmers is just that. These animals are our livelyhood. We cherish them and respect what they do for our families. I don't know a single producer (and I know a lot!) that abuse their animals. They go to great links to protect and keep them healthy. Please don't paint all animal producers with the same brush and I won't paint all of you with the same one!
     
  26. Ranchwife

    Ranchwife Companion

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    Dec 10, 2012


    AMEN!!!!!! We have 350 cow, 16 bulls, and all their babies. The time and concern my husband and father-in-law put into caring for these animals never fails to amaze me. I love and respect both of these men so much when I look out the window in blizzard conditions, or when it is 32 degrees below zero, or when it is pouring rain and watch them lovingly feed all the animals - every single day between the end of September and the first of May. Our cattle don't get the "scrap" hay - they get the $260/ton hay which is the cream of the crop. I also know the love they feel for their animals when the tear up having to put one down. And the hurt and frustration they experience when they work with a calf for days on end to help it heal only to lose it. These animals are our livelyhood - why on earth would anyone mistreat their income is beyond me. So please, please, please, don't assume that all ranchers are evil and mistreat animals.

    Just because we consume beef doesn't mean we mistreat and have no respect for the animals we raise. It is quite the opposite.
     
  27. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    That's why I try to buy local meat from small farms. Even better if I can visit the farm and see how they treat the animals. I try very hard not to eat meat if I can't make sure of the treatment of the animals, and that they were treated with respect during their lives and slaughter. I also try to minimize meat byproducts in the rest of things I use, and if it touches my body it is totally vegan and never tested on animals. I avoid leather and fur if possible. There are just so many cruelty-free options. We do feed our dogs and cats dog food with meat in it, but we make their treats, either from cruelty-free meat or from non-meat products (peanut butter, etc.) There are ways to fight corporate farms that require a little sacrifice and a little extra expense but that do allow you to eat some meat.
     
  28. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    What exactly do you not agree with from her post?

    I grew up on a farm and I understand your point because our farms are not factory farms. But the so called "BULL" about the horrors of the industry is far from quackery. Severe neglect, abuse, and torture happens every single day. Not on your farm. Not on my family's. But on farms the world over every single tragic day. Unfortunately most animal products come from these factory farms.

    But take away the true abuse...the abuse anyone would agree is abuse. There is still so much that people find inhumane on even a "friendly" farm. There is the fundamental difference here in that some think that pulling the calf from the mother after a couple days is "disrespectful" at best. That it's cruel. That castrating bulls, docking the tails, artificially inseminating, forced milkings are all "disrespectful".

    I've lived the farm life and I've watched the "BULL" from various groups...that footage, those facts are not invented.
     
  29. creativemonster

    creativemonster Comrade

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    Dec 11, 2012

    I wish I still taught high school because this is a great debate topic. I honestly don't know. I feel very lucky that I have never been put in the position of being hungry enough to put my eating choices to a true test. I suspect if I were hungry enough I would eat just about anything in order to survive. ew...ok, sorry...back on topic. How we look at animals, fellow humans, ...the world outside of ourselves...These are such great questions!
     
  30. DrivingPigeon

    DrivingPigeon Phenom

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    Well, all I can say is that everyone should eat cheese! :D Here in Wisconsin, we produce most of America's cheese. We visit a different dairy farm each year for a field trip, and the cows are treated very well. They sleep in heated barns, and are milked on a carousel. You should see the way they rush past each other to be milked-I didn't know cows could move so fast. They like it and it feels good. I don't see anything wrong with using a cow's milk to make cheese.
     
  31. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    There are farms where milk cows are not treated so well, though dairy cows generally have it better than cows raised for meat. Again, I'm speaking of the corporate farms who mistreat animals, not small farmers who treat them well and respect the process.
     
  32. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    I find it interesting how much angst and horror is felt about farm animals when each day I see kids come into my classes that are obviously not cared for properly or even loved. The lines between abuse, neglect and indifference are small. Nothing deserves torture but we have a country with many children desperately in need of real attention and love so forgive me if I do not spend lots of time worrying about cows. :dizzy:
     
  33. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    Some of you are hyprocrites...it is not ok for me to eat meat or raise it for slaughter, but you can have one or two pairs of shoes that are leather and a purse or two? When I say that I have visited producers and farms that raise slaughter cows, sheep, and swine;I mean not only small family farms but large commercial farms and slaughter houses. The "horrors" that are reported on tv are not the majority. They are isolated incidents...twice this week I have heard reports of high school basketball coaches sleeping with students. So using some of your logic, it is safe to say ALL high school basketball coaches sleep with their students!

    I don't care if you eat meat or not, DO NOT judge me and my family. We work hard to have safe conditions for our animals. We spend hours with them and take very good care of them. They sleep in heated barns in the winter and barns with water coolers in the summer. They are fed before the humans in the house. We watch them for illnesses and disease. AND we are not alone...every producer I know is the same way. I visited a sheep farm this summer where 2,000 sheep were in the facility---with a total of 10,000 on the farm. The herdsman that walked me from area to area (only after I put on a hazard suit and rubber boots that had been cleaned with a special cleaner to protect the animals) knew the name of over half his charges. The animals rushed to him to get a treat. He explained the health care of each group of animals. On the same trip I visited three other breeders...all with similar stories. My husband interviewed with a major chicken company when he first came out of college. They wanted him to be safety manager for them. His job would have been to go to each producer and make sure that the companies rules and regulations were being met. This company has since moved into pork production. We have several friends that work for them. They have strict rules about what can and can't happen on farms that they buy from. If you want to sell your product, you take care business.
     
  34. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    Dec 13, 2012

    AMEN!!
     
  35. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Dec 13, 2012

    Sigh... :(
     
  36. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

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    I'm able to care about multiple issues at one time. It actually doesn't take any extra time or energy to not eat meat. I can still do things to help support the sizable homeless and very low income student population at my school. It's as easy to stock my classroom with healthy, tasty, vegan snacks for hungry kids as to not.
     
  37. John Lee

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    Dec 13, 2012

    mrachelle87,
    You are taking this too personally. The comment that you chose to take exception to wasn't talking specifically to you... you may well have a conscientious farm business. But that doesn't mean that the agriculture industry in this country isn't overwhelmingly corrupt, inhumane, and dare I say evil. This is a problem among people on this board on a regular basis--they choose to take exception when no personal slight is meant. It is actually pro-You, the ethical farmer.

    And lest you think this is a personal attack--it is NOT. Your type of farm is the type that I actively support (I know longer buy concentration-camp meats; I only buy from farms I trust, who raise humanely).

    To stephenpe's point,
    How you care about animals and the Earth is a direct reflection of your love for humankind. The two are not exclusive. By advocating a love for animals, you are not saying that you don't have time to care for people. Actually, I would say the opposite is true. People who take a stand on behalf of animals or nature never (that I've heard) have advocated doing so at the expense of people. At worst, all they're saying is that we should live more responsibly, more harmoniously with nature.

    OTOH, those who take the "human first" perspective, are quick to take a position that subjegates nature (i.e. animals) for the benefit of humankind.

    Do we have abused kids, homeless people, etc? Of course. But I don't understand why that has anything to do with the discussion as to our relationship to nature (i.e. animal welfare).
     
  38. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Dec 13, 2012

    Maybe if Disney and others did not create all these animals with human qualities and abilities and actions people would realize animals are not people. Animals are things that belong outside in the air, in the sea and elsewhere. My earlier point was animals eat other animals. This is not anything immoral having to do with values. It is part of life. When humans began on this earth they ate or died just like the other animals around them. To think we now should not eat them for some moral reason is absurd. More than a few would eat us if given the chance and do. It is called survival. If some people want to anthropomorphize things like Hollywood does they can but
    it does not make them human. To me nothing is crueler than a bird in a cage or elephant in some traveling show. But a child living in fear without love is a horrible crime.
     
  39. Portulaca

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    Dec 13, 2012

    I do think it would be really sad if people that care about suffering, in any and all forms, allow themselves to be divided, rather than supporting each others' efforts. Here's the thing: Many people don't really give a rip about injustice and suffering; human, animal or otherwise. At least not to the degree that they'll DO much about it. Getting into the habit of doing something, anything to support your beliefs in one area trains you to do the same in other areas. It's not really zero-sum. It's like when you need help, you go to the person that's constantly helping everybody else; even if they're super busy, you know they'll help you too, because that's what they do. But I agree that none of us can afford to be smug and complacent.

    This is a very minor point, but the leather thing...I see vegetarians get accused of buying copious amounts of leather all the time---not just on this thread---and it kind of bugs me. Do people really know tons and tons and tons of ethical vegetarians that buy leather regularly? I kind of doubt that. Remember that some people are vegetarian for health reasons, so they might wear leather, but that's an entirely different issue. I'll admit I do have a few leather things, but I didn't buy them. Occasionally my mom wants to get rid of shoes (she can't really wear heels anymore.) Also, people mostly know I'm vegetarian, but often don't think about the leather issue and give it to me as gifts. I could give those things to Goodwill, I guess, but I worry that no one will want them and they'll just end up tossed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  40. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    Dec 14, 2012

    I eat meat
    [​IMG]

    I eat salad
    [​IMG]
    Because of allergies I can not eat fish and certain vegetables

    I love Animals



    Gosh that salad looks good I think I'll make one for myself
     

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