Is it okay to not have a "behavior system"?

Discussion in 'Behavior Management' started by waterfall, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    Aug 1, 2012

    I am really struggling to come up with something. In my last position I had the students create the rules with me and then I just enforced them consistently and tried to apply what I felt were logical consequences. I felt this worked well- but tbh, I had really sweet kids and very few behavior problems to begin with. My biggest problem was my 5th graders goofing around with each other instead of doing the assignment, and the few times they did it I made them do it at recess (sort of a "if now is not a good time for you, you can do it at recess" type of thing, which I thought made a lot of sense). I know that's laughable that this was the "biggest" problem! I had one other student who would occasionally interrupt/disrupt and I just had him sit away from the group until he was ready to join us, which since he loved attention so much was a decent motivator for him.

    However, I am worried that with an entire class of students with me for a full 7 hours a day, and admittedly a "rougher" population than I'm used to, this won't be enough. On the other hand, I'm having a hard time getting on board with many of the "systems" that are out there because I find them too "one size fits all." How do you be "fair and consistent" while also taking individual students and individual behaviors into account?For example, with the card system where you might do one flip= warning, two flips= 5 minutes lost recess, etc. the consequence is the same every time, and missed recess isn't always the most logical consequence. Additionally, what happens when a kid is off task 5 times in the first 2 hours of the day- what do you do for the rest of the day when they've run out of "flips?" I had some serious adhd kiddos in my last position and if I made them flip a card every time I had to re-focus them, it would have been disastrous. I'm also struggling with the idea that taking away recess for the next day (for a "flip" that happens in the afternoon) almost 24 hours later is really that effective.

    Does anyone have a system that they really like? We only have 15 minutes of recess, and the academic schedule is created for us so I don't have the option to do PAT or "free time" or anything like that. When hearing about my class for next year, I had two that were described as "squirmy- can get to be handful if they don't get to get up and move" (so obviously, taking away their recess is probably going to make them worse!) and one that "has tried every behavior plan unsuccessfully" while the others are apparently "mostly good."
     
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  3. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    Aug 2, 2012

    I've never used a formal system, for many reasons. I make my expectations clear and, as a class, we work together to discuss consequences for behaviours. I'm very consistent with following through with logical consequences and it has worked well for me.
     
  4. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    Aug 2, 2012

    This is basically what I do. Our school uses PBS so the children get rewards for good behavior school wide. That works nicely for the children with excellent behavior who just like to earn tickets for prizes.

    It's the challenging children who cause people to develop "systems". Part of the difficulty I see with that is you are giving consequences after the action. If you can avoid the action, you avoid the consequence.

    That means a teacher really has to know their children well.

    You have to know when the squirmy ones need a break before their behavior goes downhill. You have to know what triggers cause the violent one to begin throwing furniture and find ways to deescalate before that happens.

    We will always have children whose behavior just can't be controlled. Those are the children that need to be on speed dial to the office, behavior team, or whoever handles that responsibility at your school. Have that child removed for a break when you first see signs of disruption.

    Just my opinion.
     
  5. BumbleB

    BumbleB Habitué

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    Aug 2, 2012

    I did not use a formal system last year either. Some students had different consequences than others. But each student know what their consequence would be if they misbehaved. It was my first year last year, so I really can't compare its effectiveness to using a structured program. However, I think that for older kids, the more "logical" consequences are definitely the way to go.

    I teach in an urban district, and the kids are all about fairness and respect. They told me that if a teacher gives out a whole class consequence, or a consequence that doesn't make sense, they lose respect for that teacher. Just something to think about :)
     
  6. MissScrimmage

    MissScrimmage Aficionado

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    Aug 2, 2012

    :thumb: This.

    I've never had a formal behavior system. It just doesn't work for me.
     
  7. Loomistrout

    Loomistrout Devotee

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    A "system" generally includes more than what to do when a kid does something wrong (or right). It includes (but not limited to) instruction, motivation and discipline. Together, the parts merge as a total package, none able to stand alone with the same effectiveness as the whole.

    Kids often fall off task due to poor instruction. The teacher is now disciplining when the majority of problems could be prevented with a look-see into lesson delivery. All the cards in the world are not going to help if the problem(s) is a direct by-product of instruction. If instruction is stimulating and involving kids the next thing that will test the teacher's patience is when the teacher attempts to put the kids to work during independent practice. Direct instruction has ended so, now, discipline comes into play. A teacher can stand back and flip cards -"I,ll show you!" - "Take that for not working!" - "Talking? You're already two cards in the hole!" ... but did anyone really go into teaching to see how many students they can punish?

    Now the helpless hand-raisers start their antics. The teacher, being in the business of helping, can't just stand by and let a youngster thirsting for knowledge - "I need help!" - go unattended. So the teacher moves to the first helpless hand-raiser. The average helping interaction is five minutes. What is the rest of the class doing while the teacher is stationary, bent over helping #1? No mystery here. They're goofing off. Surprise! Goofing off was not caused by poor discipline rather, again, by poor instruction. What if the teacher was able to cut the helping interaction to ten seconds and keep moving using proximity to quell disruption? The discipline technique, proximity, is the add-on to instruction which, together, keep the teacher out of the business of flipping cards.
     
  8. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Aug 2, 2012

    I agree with loomistrout. I don't think you automatically need a contingency management plan, but a system is more than just the reward component, which I'm sure you already have covered waterfall.
     
  9. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    Aug 3, 2012

    I think it's important to have a behavior system in place, whatever it is that works for you. But with that said..I think the most important thing about your system is knowing that it's NOT a one-size-fits all fits system. Also, knowing that what's fair for one student is not fair everyone. Students might not see this at first, but if you preach it and are consistent with each student then it will all work.

    I used the red/yellow/green system this year. However it DID NOT work for one of my students. He had a completely different behavior plan. Another student use the system but she also had a behavior sheet that went home each day. You have to tailor it to meet their individual needs. That's not something you can plan for right now, because you don't know your students. Plan the system you want to use but know you'll need to be flexible.
     
  10. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    While I see some of what you're saying, I rarely, rarely spend more than 2-3 or three minutes moving around the room during independent practice. If I did that when would I do guided reading? When would I work with small groups in math or writing? When would I conference with a student? When would I do a running record? Students need to know how do their work and remain on task without the teacher constantly being circulating around the room. I just don't see how proximity and good teaching could be the answer. Obviously good teaching, clear directions and expectations are extremely important in keeping kids from goofing off. But I also can't stand over them all day.
     
  11. christine89

    christine89 Companion

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    Right, I used a similar color system with purple being a positive step up from green. It didn't work for one of my students and he was on a similar behavior plan with a sheet going home each day. However, it worked well for a lot of the other students so I believe it's good to have a system in place as long as some of it is based on pointing out positive behaviors.
     
  12. Loomistrout

    Loomistrout Devotee

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    Aug 4, 2012

    There is no "right way" which fits all students in all situations. What it comes down to for many is cost. How much does it cost the teacher to run a well-managed class? If a teacher can get 85% of the class engaged by simply walking there may be no need to use visual public discipline displays, use the office or contact parents. Some teachers stand and move while teaching small groups. It can be done although tradition dictates to sit and never move. In terms of cost it is simple economics - fix the product as it is being built is far cheaper than having to reassemble after production.
     
  13. Peachyness

    Peachyness Virtuoso

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    Aug 4, 2012

    One of the best teachers I worked with had no formal behavior plan either.

    In my humble opinion, majority of the kiddos in the class are typically well behaved. It's the small handful that really need some sort of behavior plan. For those students, I will create a little plan with them and their parents.

    I am also very much against those "stoplight" type behavior plans. First of all, they don't really fix the source of the behavior. Also, they are a public way to indicate a students' behavior. As an adult, I wouldn't want my boss to post private things like that for all to see. Third, I like my class to be based on the positives. I rather reward behavior than punish bad ones.

    When I taught fifth, I had all kids write one rule on an index card that they though was important to have at school. Afterwards, I had them come up one by one and organize them into groups. What we ended up with were four groups. We named them (I believe, it's been a few years now...), "respect the classroom", "respect the school", "respect ourselves", "respect our fellow classmates". I really liked this method as it was simple, easy, and they all agreed on the rules. I was given a bunch of naughty kids since the prior fourth grade teachers didn't know who was going to be teaching that class (I've had MANY teachers admit to stacking my classes.... I'm always the new one since I always get pink slipped). Anyhoo, I had hardly any issues that year.
     
  14. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    I didn't say sit and never move. I'm usually standing during guided math and for parts of guided reading and writing so I can write on a chart. I can view all the other students very easily. But I know for a fact those lessons would not be effective if I was concentrating on walking around the room to keep the other students on task while I was supposed to be teaching/working with 4 or 5 students. And there are times when I do need to sit and not move to test or conference with a child. The students in my class need to know that just because my eyes aren't on them or because I'm not walking around the room at that exact moment that they need to work as if I was right behind them.

    I'm not saying that a public display of behavior is the answer. I used one last year because it was sort of a school "policy" not like we're forced to use it but it's recommended and everyone else did. It worked for us but I'm not 100% committed to it forever and I definitely see it's downfalls.

    However, I think that if a teacher needs to walk around the room in order to keep 85% of the class engaged, then there is something really, really wrong there. It should be the other way around. Maybe 15% of the kids need something else in place to stay engaged. But by the time you get into a routine and set standards for independent work in your classroom, the work that students are doing at their seats should be keeping them engaged. If it wasn't I would be taking a serious look at my teaching practices and I know for sure my administration would be too!
     
  15. Loomistrout

    Loomistrout Devotee

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    Aug 4, 2012

    "Working the crowd" may, indeed, seem like merely walking and a pointer to some other area of management which is amiss. Done correctly, however, proximity should have the look of a teacher merely moving about the room offering assistance and talking with students.

    In training several teachers role-played students with the instructor moving about checking work and sort of just cruising. At no time was there any feeling of a teacher looming over students. At the end of the demonstration (about two minutes) the instructor asked the group if anyone could tell who was in trouble? No one could. Then he asked the players to raise their hands if they were in trouble. Two did. Long-winded point is discipline can be gentle, protective and private. The cost to the teacher is minimal - a by-product of what many teachers do (help) anyway when students are working independently. No one in the room should know a discipline number has just happened except teacher and student.

    Does a teacher need to work the crowd constantly no matter what else is going on? No. Not realistic. As you noted, there are times when instruction and other duties demand small groups or individual. If, however, and especially at the beginning of school year, the teacher designs small group lessons which allow stepping away and back it can seem like a daily routine to students. Knowing the teacher will commit to discipline before instruction can drive cost way down so later a "look" from seated position will get the job done.
     
  16. EMonkey

    EMonkey Connoisseur

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    My system is mostly like yours. I work with the class to develop expectations. I work with the children so they are seeing their actions and how the actions fit into the expectations. I then do logical consequences. I do give PAT time though.
     
  17. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

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    Well, I just saw that on our agenda for tomorrow is "share your classroom management system" so I better come up with one! Do you think if I did something like the flip cards but just said maybe one flip was a warning and two flips was just a "consequence" that was logical with the behavior, rather than saying "a second flip is 5 minutes missed recess?" Apparently all 3 of the other teachers on my grade level team use the flip cards so I guess it would be good to get some consistency, but I just can't get behind having the same consequence every time. I know one of the teachers on my team has the students write a letter either apologizing or saying what they're going to do differently, which I think is a great idea as a consequence in general, but I certainly wouldn't want to do that every single time. It's probably the one that makes the most sense for a variety of behaviors, but it's time consuming and would make them miss a lot of instructional time.
     
  18. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    The main concern with the card system is you run out of flips very early, meaning you have to either not respond to behavior that occurs, or not have kids flips, or suffer through "bankruptcy" at 9:00am. A related issue is what you have kids flip cards for - what if they aren't paying attention, or got out of their seat, or called out without raising their hand? What level of severity constitutes a card, and what do you do for less significant bxs?

    In general, I think any reward/punishment system needs enough steps to cover a day, which is why I think systems with small increments of reward and corresponding punishment work better, such as loss of 15 second increments of free time/academic free choice/recess or something similar. Lottery systems do well with this because you only have to have one backup reinforcement (prize) but give many "tokens" throughout the day.
     
  19. mikemack42

    mikemack42 Companion

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    It's funny, I actually logged in to post a similar question, because I'm reading Love and Logic, and this sentence really got my attention: "Advance warning of consequences has never had a positive effect on school discipline". The author goes on to a hypothetical teacher explaining his/her behavior system by telling the students that, "I don't know [the consequences if you break a rule]. It will depend on how you break the rules. I treat everyone in this room as a unique individual and each situation as a unique case."

    I was a little taken aback by that scenario, as I imagine many teachers would be, but it does make sense. Plenty of times I've enforced pre-established consequences that I didn't really think were appropriate or effective, because, well those were the consequences that I'd established. I'm glad to know leaving the consequences open works for other teachers. How do you handle it when kids really challenge the system and find loopholes? I know someone mentioned an individual behaviour plan. Any other strategies?
     
  20. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    I don't think there's support for that statement in Love & Logic - does the author really think that pre-established consequences have no effect on student behavior? It's no doubt true that sometimes those consequences don't fit, and no doubt true that sometimes consequences don't work, but to say that it's never had a positive effect is inaccurate.

    Leaving consequences open, on the other hand, communicates no clear expectation of what is expected and what will happen if the expectation is/is not met, which leads to a reduced opportunity of internalization of the expectation. In other words, consequences become whims of the teacher, and agents of the teacher, rather than natural occurrences under the control of the student. If our goal is to teach self-discipline and management, we need to empower kids with the opportunity to understand their environment, including expectations and results of meeting/not meeting them.

    Of course, no pre-established system will come pre-packaged with every consequence or response to an incident that you'll ever need, so the inclusion of a pre-established set of consequences doesn't preclude unique teacher response, but that doesn't negate the importance of the pre-establishment.
     
  21. mikemack42

    mikemack42 Companion

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    Aug 9, 2012

    The way the author responds to those concerns is that:
    1. students will have the opportunity to tell the teacher if the consequences are unfair, and the teacher will change the consequences if the student makes a good enough case.
    2. having more flexible consequences empowers kids more, because it gives the kids a chance to solve the problem themselves. The author gives the example of a principal bringing a kid into his office, after the kid had stolen something from a class, and the principal asks the kid what he thinks. The kid immediately denies doing it, and the principal simply says, "Bummer" and leaves the room. The principal comes back to check in, hears the same response, leaves the room again. Eventually the kid decides to confess, apologize and return the stolen item, without the principal ever telling him to do it.

    I can't personally testify to the effectiveness of the method, since I've never tried it, but I can tell you how ineffective I've seen fixed consequences be. What I've done for this year is have set consequences, but then written on the rules sheet that they are flexible. I don't want to find myself hemmed in by ineffective fixed consequences again.

    Also, apparently several teachers on this list have found ways to be effective without a formal behavior system, so there must be a way to do it so it's not arbitrary and unfair, but rather flexible and adaptable to the needs of the students.
     
  22. mikemack42

    mikemack42 Companion

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    Aug 9, 2012

    I've also put this disclaimer over my rules list, as another suggestion from Love and Logic. What do you think?


    General Rule: You can do whatever you like in this class, as long as it doesn’t cause problems for others, or interfere with our learning goals.
    - If you do something which causes problems for others, and/or interferes with our learning goals, but is not on the rules list below, there will still be consequences. I am trusting your good judgment and maturity to know when your actions will cause problems for others and/or interfere with our learning goals.
     
  23. slippers

    slippers Rookie

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    I was looking specifically for this topic tonight! I have 150 students in a gen chem class schedule, 30 per class five times a day. It's a hard schedule and there are other higher level chemistry teachers who teach ap, etc.

    Most students are ok and behave well but I have about 8 or so 'bad' boys who will do anything for a laugh or to disrupt the class. Today I had two classes off topic and even disrespectful. With so many students it's hard to work with them individually while also monitoring the others.

    I am new to this school and I know alot of this is testing behavior, but I just hate these power struggles that the students go through. By the end of the day I am exhausted. I had some misgivings about the job but took it anyway (I need to work and eat!) and I am struggling as a second year teacher to figure out the 'discipline' issues. When teenage boys are fresh and backtalk - I sometimes still just have to take a minute to process what crazy thing they just said.

    Have called parents, and am progressing to referrals. Bleh. I have Fred Jones, Setting Limits and a few other books but are these writers even in the classroom? It is just exhausting and I feel like 90% of what I do is management and 10% actual chemistry. Long year ahead I guess - any thoughts??? Getting poor grades from not doing the work or listening (and therefor knowing what to do) is starting to have an effect as well, and those grades will continue to go down as long as they don't participate or listen in class.
     
  24. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Sep 12, 2012

    Actually I see a few potential problems with this type of set up. consider the following activities / behaviors the student could do, that would be wrong - I would never allow it - but technically they wouldn't cause problems for others, and wouldn't interfere with the learning goals (they could claim they learned it)
    - take out their cell phones, text, go on Facebook, internet, check email, while they're still listening to teacher
    - get out of their seats, not bothering others, but get up frequently
    - off task but nut disruptive behavior (read another book, draw, etc)
    - listen to their ipod, claiming that it's low enough for them to hear you, or they listen while they're doing work
    - and many more
     
  25. mikemack42

    mikemack42 Companion

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    Sep 12, 2012

    I've tried it for a month and had far fewer problems than any of my past years. Regarding your examples:

    - take out their cell phones, text, go on Facebook, internet, check email, while they're still listening to teacher- causes a problem for me, therefore not allowed, and it's also against school policy
    - get out of their seats, not bothering others, but get up frequently- same as above
    - off task but nut disruptive behavior (read another book, draw, etc) this is a little more difficult- I try to emphasize the value of the learning they're missing, instead of the need to do what I say, but it is a big grey area
    - listen to their ipod, claiming that it's low enough for them to hear you, or they listen while they're doing work- I have no problem with them listening to music while they work independently. If they listen while I talk, it's a problem for me
     
  26. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    I'm pretty crazy about Love and Logic. It's the only behavior system I have found that I can apply to the online academic setting. They get consequences with empathy. "You didn't do all those assignments? I really hate the grade that's showing for you. What can we do to change that?"
     
  27. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Sep 12, 2012

    Sorry for the delayed response! Just saw this post resurface and that I hadn't responded previously. Will add comments below.

    I think both of those scenarios could be beneficial, but neither are precluded with pre-established consequences. Students could still have input into the consequences, and kids would still be able to solve problems themselves with the knowledge of what consequences are in place.

    When you say "fixed" consequences, are you saying that the there is no flexibility in deliver? No consideration of unique variables of the situation? I think it's entirely possible and advised to have pre-established consequences, but within the understanding that variables in individual scenarios could alter those consequences if warranted.

    If you are referring to pre-established consequences when you say that you've found them to be ineffective, you'd be in the minority of teachers I know. Many teachers have found a system of pre-established consequences to be quite effective, which brings me back to my initial point - on what basis does the book claim that no one has ever found that to be effective? Is there some study or survey that was conducted of teachers?

    It's also important to note that no one is arguing that pre-established consequences exclusively get the job done, simply that they are a part of the overall package.

    There are indeed many ways of accomplishing the same goal often. However, we need to be clear about what's actually being accomplished - what is means to be "effective." There are many discipline strategies which might produce quiet classrooms, but some of those strategies might not produce internalization of that discipline. Kids may likely follow the rules, but not really have incorporated them into their internal rule structure, which is a higher form of discipline.

    _________

    On a broader level, my issue with programs like Love & Logic are that they oversimplify behavior for the sake of accessibility. They do things like proclaim universal motivation for children's behavior, and make statements such as "no pre-established consequences have ever worked, ever."

    In reality, most programs are behavioral/intervention strategies that have already been found effective previously, re-packaged with new terms and new descriptions, for the sake of making the material accessible to teachers. It often dumbs down the content, makes sweeping generalizations rendering the end product false, and ignores the need for individual problem-solving in scenarios. Not all programs do this, but enough do that I've seen it as a problem.

    I'm not against the consumption of programs like Love & Logic, but as professionals it's the responsibility of teachers to develop expertise in the different areas of their practice, classroom discipline being one of them. This requires teachers to move beyond simply using one set of strategies by one author, and being familiar with the broad body of research out there about what works. It also necessitates that each teacher critically consume what s/he reads, and not quote a book as though it's the bible. If the author of Love & Logic says "pre-established consequences have never worked," and that goes against other research you've read, it's your responsibility to investigate the claim before using that piece of information in your practice. It is unethical to wholly adopt a system that blatantly disregards numerous other studies simply because it has intuitive appeal to you. There are plenty of things that seem to make sense, but in actuality don't.

    So, by all means read Love & Logic and take from it the great things it brings, but read (as you would with everything) with a critical eye, comparing what you are reading to the rest of your research in the area, and if you don't know enough to be critical, do more research.
     
  28. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Sep 12, 2012

    I think the he meant that the disclaimer is over and above other rules that he has posted. It's not that the only rule he has posted is the general disclaimer, but the general disclaimer serves more as a guiding principle or heuristic. I find this helpful as specific rules are important when teaching children how to behave, but as they grow older they will need to increasingly decide on specific behaviors in increasingly complex scenarios based on general "rules of thumb." Teaching these "rules of them" or guiding principles, in addition to very specific rules, gives children the initial guidance they need (specific rule) but also teaches them to see that the specific rule was derived from a broader generality, and teaches them to start being active participants in social problem-solving, rather than simply passively receiving a rule book and following it.
     

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