insubordination

Discussion in 'General Education' started by LiterallyLisa, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 10, 2014

    Completely frustrated...half rant/half plea for ideas

    This student has been a roller coaster since day...3? Some days she comes in and she is fine. She participates, she does her work, if you redirect her, she gets back on track with no questions asked. Other days you ask her to put her book bag in the back or tell her that she cannot write on the paper...and the rest of the day will be a battle. She will hum while I teach, talk to herself or others if possible while I teach and this is all blatantly obvious and loud. She will deny every bit of it.

    She has been written up several times for insubordination and disruptive behavior/disrespect in my class and in other classes. I have a series of consequences. If you are disrupting my class, then one option is to send you to a buddy teacher to finish your work or participate in their class. When I ask her to go to my buddy teacher (or when another teacher asks her to come to my classroom) she REFUSES to leave, every time. Administration has been contacted in other classes to remove her from the classroom.

    Admin started by telling us not to even give her warning anymore. Since then, admin has told us to ignore some things and pick our battles, since she is in the office so much. I have tried to pick my battles, but there are some things you can't ignore. I've contacted parents for two conferences now, and no show both times. She has been taken out of my partners classes and now is cross teaming with two other teachers for Math and Sci...(happened last Wednesday)

    Today we came back from lunch, and began social studies. Every time I would begin to talk, she would laugh...at nothing or no one. I stopped immediately giving her the eye of warning and she stopped. I started again, and she started again. I calmly finished telling students what they needed to do, and released them to complete the first task. At this time, I walked over to her desk and tried talking to her about her behavior. Something else about this kid, SHE WILL NOT ANSWER A QUESTION. Eventually I told her, that she could choose not to learn today but that she could not make that choice for everyone else. I walked away to check on my students, and she starts to laugh again as I call them back to order because it is the unfortunate awful scheduling of our bathroom break time. I take this time to go ahead and send her to another classroom. I try to avoid giving her attention because that is what it seems like she wants. When I give her her things, she will not leave. I ask her if she cares about school, about her future, what she wants to be in life, no answers. I ask her if she thinks she can be successful when she is sent to the office so much. She says she doesn't care. "All they will do is put me in ISS." Needless to say the day ended with her in ISS.


    Its frustrating because none of this is helping, but it is all I can think of to do. Her new teachers just say "She is fine, she just sits there and does her work for me. I wish she would do that in my class, I would...." Which isn't helpful either...any ideas??
     
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  3. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Nov 11, 2014

    Have you talked to her previous teacher to see if the student exhibited these behaviors?

    What time of day is your class?
     
  4. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 11, 2014

    The one that she had for math and science? Yes, she did all these things and that's why she was taken out of her classes.

    I haven't looked into elementary teachers, mom said none of this was a problem, but her cum ulative folder says different, so that can be next step. Is there any confidentially stuff to look out for or is it okay since they had the student before?
     
  5. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 11, 2014

    I see her in the morning and after noon, its happened in both
     
  6. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Nov 11, 2014

    Who are her new teachers? Do you mean in ISS she just sits and does her work?

    I'm confused.
     
  7. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 11, 2014

    I teach her ss and la, my partner taught her sci and math. They took her out of my partners classes last week and put her in another teachers math class and another teachers science class...

    Sorry i was not clear-thanks for any help
     
  8. agdamity

    agdamity Fanatic

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    Nov 11, 2014

    I would find out how the new math and science teachers structure their class and manage her. See if they are doing anything you could try in your class.
     
  9. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Nov 11, 2014

    Perhaps you can also talk with your principal about the fact that this student appears to be AIMING for ISS. Is there a way P can make a meeting one that is required for this child to return to class?
     
  10. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 11, 2014

    I will definitely bring this up!
     
  11. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 11, 2014

    I am all for getting ideas from others, especially if it is helpful for my students and myself. Right now, it is new to her, so I don't know if it has anything to do with that or not.
     
  12. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Nov 11, 2014

    Have you tried dedicating sometime to just talking to her on a daily basis and building some kind of relationship?
     
  13. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Yes, i stop by the table at lunch, try talking to her when we wait to be dismissed...usually she doesn't answer my questions. she will sit there silent. when she does answer them, i keep going because it give me hope
     
  14. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    Nov 11, 2014

    I would try the same when students are working in class as well, it may help.
     
  15. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    It is sounding an awful lot like oppositional defiance, which would get her into the behavioral disability territory. I work with these students all day, and this behavior plagues my existence. BD/ED could be the way she is headed. Is she showing any other signs of possible mental illness? She needs thorough evaluation.
     
  16. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    With her mother's denial I suspect she doesn't receive much attention and discipline at home. Sounds like a big case of PD (parental disorder). If she is like any of the students I've had in the past, her mother might even be encouraging the behavior by believe the girl's version at home and/or telling the girl that the teachers aren't "the boss of her."

    Your administration needs to step up. They're wimping out because they don't know what to do or don't want to do it. So they're putting it back on the classroom teacher.

    In my experience there probably isn't much you'll be able to do. The girl has probably already learned that teachers have to pass her along so what difference does it make? Why work when there is no payoff?
     
  17. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Nov 11, 2014

    What's going on at home? Do you know her background? I find her comment about not caring at all about anything is a hint. Some kids really do feel that there is no hope, no reason to do well and they don't value education.
    We have these kids. Some don't care because they just lost someone, and they feel that why even try to do the right thing, tragic accidents can happen (or violence) and then it's all for nothing. Sometimes it's parental abuse, other times they just grow up with believing that they're no good, so why even try?

    Can you think of anything that might trigger her? Sometimes it's very small, you don't even notice it. Some days she's fine, so we know that she is capable of acting right, so something must go wrong.

    I try different things with my kids to see what works, not one strategy works for every one.
    - completely ignore
    - pay attention and praise when they do the right thing, completely ignore when they don't
    - give them little jobs. Pass out papers, take something to the office. Feeling important and useful can mean a lot.
    - be very very strict and very straight forward. I do this sometimes even in front of others. Not recommended I know, but by then all the kids know he/she is in trouble, so they embarrassed themselves already
    - one on one conversations. Either frequent to build rapport only, or frequent to check in with them before hand (we're gonna have a good day today?) or afterwards (tell me what happened? what did you do right and what did you do wrong?), no lecturing just short. And there is the longer talk.
    - brainstorm. Find a way to avoid problems. Maybe some days she knows she's in 'the mood', she can signal you, and then that means she can put her head down, not do the work for now, sit in a different seat, etc. Sometimes they're responsible enough to do this.
    - set up small rewards.
    - once we had a kid get 2 'get out of class free' cards / week. He could give it to his teacher and go to a designated teacher's class, no questions asked. He would still have to do his work and was not excused. Admin set this up. It worked pretty well. He could be awesome, and other times he was difficult, wouldn't budge, wouldn't leave class and would love to push buttons. He was severe ADHD with other issues
     
  18. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Nov 11, 2014

    Forgot something: impressing others. We had a kid whom I had 2 classes a day. In 1 class he was an angel, in the other he turned into a little devil at times, and then it became a daily thing. It turns out he was trying to impress his cousin. When he left, he was still trying to impress others, just acting crazy, because he had that audience.
    He was a misfit, no friends at school, so he wanted attention. He became extremely difficult, cussed me out regularly, made sexual comments (wrote him up for sexual harassment twice), my P eventually took him out of that one class. She never does this, so it was an exception.

    Normally what we do with these kids (I'm sure you can 't do it, because we teach 9-12 grades, and the students are mixed gradewise) is to put them in a class with an older crowd. A 9th grader acting goofy and crazy will not impress 11-12 graders, so they stop. We did this often with great results. They just blend in and become awesome students :)

    Could you place her in a class that is higher level, they're more mature, less behavior problem? There is a chance for one kid to completely change the dynamics of the class, but almost always it works out for the better.
     
  19. bros

    bros Phenom

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    You can talk to the previous teachers about stuff in the cumulative file - no issues of confidentiality as you have an interest in the education of the student.

    Is your class right before lunch? At the beginning of the day? Right before the end of the day?

    I was thinking ODD too, probably exacerbated by something going on at home.
     
  20. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    I used to have her first thing in the morning and once in the afternoon, after her schedule changed she was placed into my second block which I take to lunch and my last block of the day. The behavior has occurred during ALL of my classes at this point, but more so after lunch.
     
  21. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    This is only my second year, but I just could not believe the first time she refused to leave my room. The things that have stood out to me, she fails to respond to adults when they are talking to her (even in positive ways), not looking people in the eye, and mood swings. Things like asking them not to write on a class set of readings for SS, has set her off...other small things like that.

    I am not sure how she does socially. She has a few friends...but i have received letterS from students asking to be moved away from her, complaining that she taps on their desk repeatedly, she stares at them constantly, and that they can't learn because of the sounds and noises she makes. Some have complained that she threatened violence which was reported.

    What things could I look for?
     
  22. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    Her poor classmates. How unfair this is to them. :(
     
  23. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    I agree. This is why she sits alone, at the front of the room. Of course she stays turned around staring at everyone the majority of the class period.


    Thanks for the suggestions everyone!
     
  24. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    Can you place a divider between her seat and the others'? Can she sit alone at the back?
     
  25. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    I know this doesn't sound like the best, but I feel like if I am closer to her then I can head off any negative behavior if I have to. I know if she was in the back though, she would have no one to turn around to.


    I joked about a divider already, but I might ask around.
     
  26. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    Sometimes being right up front is a great way to keep on task. But sometimes being alone in the back without an audience helps too. She might get better or she might up the ante.

    Before you try moving her to the back, consider making it look like the front seat needed to be used for something else. Something temporary. So if you need to move her back it isn't because she outsmarted you/got louder/whatever.
     
  27. hopesma

    hopesma Rookie

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    I don't have any advice but I had to look at your state because she sounds so much like one of my BD/ED kids. I see the same things from my students in class. If I try to ignore the behavior, they escalate until they get my attention. I stay as calm as possible and keep explaining why it's inappropriate and how to make good choices. It drives me crazy when they deny things that I actually watch them do.

    Can you give her points towards some type of incentive? How is she academically? Is she trying to avoid work at times? I will be checking back to see what advice you get. Nothing has worked for my kids yet and it's so frustrating for everyone.
     
  28. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Honestly, what she does is what you look for. The mood swings, the refusal to leave the room, the persistence in doing things that absolutely will get her into trouble and noticed in a bad way, alienating peers - all of these things are pretty typical. They can get in your face, threats, shouting matches, having to get the last word in on anything they want to argue about. I wasn't kidding when I said I live with these students. I have 8 diagnosed with some degree of ODD this year. I had less last year, but I got lucky this year, I guess. I highly recommend documenting, and then documenting some more. If you can get records or occurrences from other teachers and classes, it will help in a diagnosis. The students that I see mostly have addictions or other mental illness problems co presenting, but if this is fairly early, that may not be manifest yet. I so recommend having someone at the school, a social worker or psychologist, to meet with her for some feedback. The parents of these children often will not admit to the diagnosis until the student goes off the deep end or ends up in trouble. My instinct is that they are afraid to rile these children, because they are unpredictable. Many of our students no longer live with their family. I do not claim to be the person to diagnose this, but it would have to be something I would want ruled out. She needs help, and that is not a reflection on you. The rest of the class has needs to meet as well, and these students can be very high maintenance.

    I do wish you the best of luck.
     
  29. scholarteacher

    scholarteacher Connoisseur

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    Linguist said what I was thinking. Maybe something is going on at home. I believe that we can work with kids but not excuse their behavior--so that being said, maybe some professional help is needed. A school psychologist or someone like that?
     
  30. LiterallyLisa

    LiterallyLisa Companion

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    Nov 18, 2014

    Thanks for the suggestions, I am trying out different things.

    I emailed asking if I could get in touch with previous teachers to see if this was new, and what worked for them (I know it's "best" to ask forgiveness later...but it is only my second year!!). My p told me not to get in touch with the other teachers, and that we would meet to discuss some strategies.

    -3 strikes and you are out
    -reward for following the rules
    -10 write ups leads to alternative school


    We currently do not have a school psychologist.

    I had previously referred her to the guidance counselor, and she refused to speak to them, answer any questions, or chat.

    She is still "perfectly fine" in her new teachers classes o_O

    It is day to day though...today she followed all five rules.
     

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