I'm buying into embarrassing students...

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Genesiser, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. Genesiser

    Genesiser Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    8

    Feb 17, 2018

    This applies to grade 6-8. So I was taught that when dealing with students you never do anything to embarrass them or make them feel bad. Instead you should talk to them like, "I understand you are feeling like x or y, but you are disrupting students" or whatever. When disciplining them you give them a referral or make them go to another classroom or move their seat or something along those lines. Also, at my school this is what they want you to do. This works a decent amount of time, but there are a lot of students where this doesn't work and the kids can just be out of control and not want to do jack.

    Then, there was a new teacher that came from New York that has two masters in education and I befriended her. She tells me the reason this doesn't really work is because the students don't respect you and they feel nothing bad will happen. At first I was skeptical, but she has many of the same students as I do and when she started (she started mid year) her students were failing their class, not doing any work, and just screwing around. After just 1 week she got them always do their work and almost always behave in her class. I asked how she did this and she said it's simple.

    First off, when students do what they aren't supposed to do, you make them know it and you yell at them. Not only do you yell at them, but you embarrass the crap out of them and make them feel about 2 inches tall. She has literally had students cry because she berated them so bad. By itself, this wouldn't work at all. However at the same time you need to make the students know that you always have their back and you will protect them against anyone that does wrong. Whether it's making fun of them or anything that hurts their feelings. With that said, even if you back them up, you have to tear them down if they do the same to another student. Also, when they do well, you make sure they know it by praising them, etc.

    I've spoken to my students and they all say the same thing. She is by far their favorite teacher. This sounds odd at first, but basically they say she is the nicest mean teacher they've ever had. Not only that, but they know she has their back and she will protect them. This isn't just one or two students, but literally ALL of the students. Not only do they all love her, but they all do their work and do everything she says. Yes, they sometimes act out, but she quickly gets them back in their place.

    At this point in the year, I won't be able to do change the way I do things, because it would be a big shock and drastic change to run my classroom like this. However, next year I'm going to start the year off this way. It sounds F'd up to make the students feel like garbage, but if you are able to make them know that you also have their back, they do anything for you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  2.  
  3. mathmagic

    mathmagic Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    2,418
    Likes Received:
    1,172

    Feb 17, 2018

    Yeah, sorry, not going to do that. I'll challenge them, and I'll share disappointment (i.e. be honest and transparent so they see natural consequences), but I won't berate, embarrass, or yell at my kids.

    They might sound all enamored about that teacher, but who knows what underlying issues they may have.

    This is what leads to future issues with confidence, dealing with anxiety, etc... Speaking from experience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  4. JimG

    JimG Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    144

    Feb 17, 2018

    Yeah, I’m gonna call it now that this won’t work out well for you.
     
    Tyler B. and futuremathsprof like this.
  5. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Connoisseur

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,864
    Likes Received:
    607

    Feb 17, 2018

    Wow.
     
  6. TrademarkTer

    TrademarkTer Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,485
    Likes Received:
    1,026

    Feb 17, 2018

    Just be yourself. If you're a maniac, then be a maniac. If you're calm and nurturing, then be calm and nurturing.
     
  7. Leaborb192

    Leaborb192 Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    1,180

    Feb 17, 2018

    ,
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
    futuremathsprof likes this.
  8. JimG

    JimG Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    144

    Feb 17, 2018

    EXACTLY! The years I had the most discipline problems were the years I started off trying to be a strict hard-[you-know-what]. Kids see through it if you are trying to force being something you are not. Judging by other posts of yours (talking to OP), it seems you already have a positive discipline system figured out, and what you just described may be a case of thinking the grass is greener. DON’T DRINK THE KOOL-AID!

    I’m not even going to touch the many ethical concerns in what you described. I am sure plenty of other posters will do that.
     
    Tyler B. likes this.
  9. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,505
    Likes Received:
    1,417

    Feb 17, 2018

    I don't buy into emotionally abusing my students expecting that will make them love me.
     
    dgpiaffeteach, Tyler B. and mathmagic like this.
  10. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,858
    Likes Received:
    1,695

    Feb 17, 2018

    Nope. My students know that I always have their back; they didn't learn that by having me berate and embarrass them.

    If you do decide to go this route, prepare yourself to spend lots of time explaining your actions to parents and administrators (and, most likely, looking for another job).
     
    Tyler B. likes this.
  11. jadorelafrance

    jadorelafrance Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2015
    Messages:
    620
    Likes Received:
    255

    Feb 17, 2018

    I Know someone who did this and eventually got fired from two teaching jobs as a probationary teacher. Don’t do this.
     
    Been There and Tyler B. like this.
  12. Hokiegrad1993

    Hokiegrad1993 Comrade

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    98

    Feb 17, 2018

    Could it be that it is just the students you have? ... I am not sure frankly if this will work.It sounds like emotional abuse. A lot of times students are scared into doing their work. Them saying that she is their favorite teacher I cannot really explain but I strongly recommend you do not try this strategy
     
    Tyler B. likes this.
  13. vickilyn

    vickilyn Magnifico

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,865
    Likes Received:
    2,451

    Feb 17, 2018

    Should you go this route, make sure you get back to us in a year and give us truthful and accurate accounts of the outcome. Let us know if you are looking for a new job.
     
    Been There likes this.
  14. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Messages:
    819
    Likes Received:
    166

    Feb 17, 2018

    Don't do anything that you wouldn't do if a parent or administrator were in the room. Especially with videos of teachers popping up all over social media, ask yourself if these students' behavior is worth ending your career.
     
    Been There and Tyler B. like this.
  15. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,000

    Feb 17, 2018

    I have a feeling that what she meant when you say "embarrass" and "yell" is different from what you think it means.

    Her strategy might be a solid one if you changed the words around a bit. You can tell a student to cut out a behavior in class, and then later, pull them aside one-on-one and really give it to them about how their behavior is childish, immature, damaging to others, or the learning in the classroom, and make them feel embarrassed of their own behavior.

    That's very different than embarrassing a student in front of their peers. That will only cause them to resent you, and plot ways to get back at you.

    These one-on-one talks where you really lay into them about their behavior might seem like "yelling", but most teachers can do this without raising their voice (it's usually done in low volumes in my experience) or without appearing angry or emotional in any way.

    My preferred way was to lay it out calmly, quietly, and matter-of-factly: "This is what you're doing. This is how it is affecting the class. This is what your peers think of you when you do this. This is what will happen if it doesn't stop. Make your choice. Are we clear?"

    Some teachers might seem to have strong classroom management with seemingly negative strategies. Sometimes those classes are not what they seem (either the behaviors you think they're doing, aren't actually what they're doing, something else they're doing is having a greater effect than the negative strategies, or the class is not really going as well as you think it is [i.e. I know a lot of teachers who scream and yell and use overly harsh punishments have what looks like silent classes, but learning isn't really happening, kids aren't having fun, and the kids aren't really learning good behaviors, only fear]).
     
    Master Pre-K likes this.
  16. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,330
    Likes Received:
    571

    Feb 17, 2018

    Yeah, I'm doubting the yelling is actually screaming in the kid's face.

    However, I have found that so many kids with behavior problems adore the strict, no-nonsense teachers that will call them out in the middle of class. They don't adore the teachers at the time. But for these kids it is all about respect. They will respect the teachers that abide by the rules and are consistent. That don't back down when they bow up. And then they constantly visit their rooms once the new semester starts. Remember them in their English essays. Tell them that they are the best teachers EVER, lol.

    The entitled kids that act like brats because their helicopter mommies always pave the way for them don't turn around like this. They remain resentful and condescending. They hold grudges if you call them out publically. But the ones that haven't had the best 'home-training' usually respond very well.
     
    Backroads likes this.
  17. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,505
    Likes Received:
    1,417

    Feb 17, 2018

    I'm sorry, doing this to a child..." Not only do you yell at them, but you embarrass the crap out of them and make them feel about 2 inches tall. She has literally had students cry because she berated them so bad." just won't happen in my classroom. That is pure abuse and if I wouldn't do that to an adult, or to my own child...why would I do that to a child I teach?
     
    Tyler B. likes this.
  18. Janeway

    Janeway Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    39

    Feb 17, 2018

    This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I am a new teacher, and struggle with classroom management. However, I’d never result to this even if it was a 100% guaranteed method. It sounds like it would make you more miserable than if you were dealing with misbehaving students. Just have clear expectations, strict procedures, no second chances for consequences, and don’t lose your cool. I struggled with doing all these consistently, but once it clicked, I’ve had a lot of success.
     
  19. Genesiser

    Genesiser Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    8

    Feb 18, 2018

    I'm glad I posted this and got your feedback. What has pushed me to consider this sort of strategy is last semester the school gave me a class to teach called intensive math. This class took away the students' elective and they now have 2 math classes. Since the beginning of this class, the students just don't give a crap and no matter what I do they just want to ignore everything and say it's an elective so it doesn't matter if they fail the class. Only a few of the students pay attention and the rest ignore everything and get Fs on everything. It can sometimes be a mad house in this class and I've been getting frustrated.

    The other teacher also teaches intensive reading and the students were the same way. Now they focus, do their stuff, and are getting good grades in her class. It's not her changing grades or giving them answers, I've looked at their work and have observed her class during my planning period and everything is going like she says. The other intensive reading classes go like my intensive math class.

    As JimG pointed out, it's not my personality to act like this - many of my students ask me why I'm always so happy, even when they act out and why am I always smiling. I tried being super strict to this intensive math class, but it didn't work out too well and instead the students grew more and more resentment towards me. I've almost given up on this class and are just looking forward to next year where I won't be teaching intensive math anymore.
    :(
     
  20. vickilyn

    vickilyn Magnifico

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,865
    Likes Received:
    2,451

    Feb 18, 2018

    I'm kind of guessing that intensive math may be for students who need more credits in math? Students who are excelling generally are taking higher courses and more than on track. Your students may be chronic underachievers? Just wondering, because it speaks to motivation.
     
  21. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,330
    Likes Received:
    571

    Feb 18, 2018

    I've found that the type of students you're teaching are VERY used to having everything done for them. They do not know how to work hard in academics. When they are expected to do something other than fill in guided notes, they rebel. Your colleague has made it clear that rebellion will not be accepted. Your personality tends to lead inconsistency with expectations. They may not know you mean business because other teachers who are more happy-go-lucky will sometimes cave when students seem to struggle.
     
    Backroads likes this.
  22. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,000

    Feb 18, 2018

    I agree. The way that was phrased just seemed outright abusive. I was trying to give the more experienced teacher the benefit of the doubt and assume that she meant something less abusive, or that what she said may have been misinterpreted by the OP.
     
  23. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    1,666

    Feb 19, 2018

    I would daresay one of my favorite teachers ever was this type. I remember going to her class for the first time and not liking her one bit. She was very strict, very serious (she reminded us all of the female professor on Legally Blonde, both in personality and looks, and I just totally gave away my age).

    I think it was by midyear I adored her and so did pretty much everyone else.
     
  24. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    1,666

    Feb 19, 2018

    To the OP.... I suppose I could imagine a select few students who really would be best dealt with that way, but not the majority.
     
  25. MissScrimmage

    MissScrimmage Aficionado

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,060
    Likes Received:
    538

    Feb 19, 2018

    Very strict and serious is a far cry from intentionally trying to embarrass and break down students. What is working for this teacher is that students know she has their back, not the breaking down to 2 inches tall and crying. If I was a student in this class, I would be going in with a pit in my stomach and a lot of stress every day. And students who are stressed and anxious are not ready to do their best learning.
     
  26. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    5,770
    Likes Received:
    1,000

    Feb 19, 2018

    Again, I think the way OP described this teaching method is plain abuse though I still think he has misinterpreted what the teacher's strategies likely are, given his description of her success. You cannot have that kind of success with students if you are abusive with them period, so either the teacher was poorly describing her methods, the teacher was flat out lying about her methods, or the OP misinterpreted her methods or her success.

    However, I do want to point out the importance of embarrassment in learning, and think it's not best to discount it entirely. It is a HUGE part of learning, and produces the only real lasting change in a person. Again, I am not describing the type of embarrassment where you are shaming the child in front of other students, or adults. That only builds resentment.

    I am talking about the embarrassment one feels when they truly understand the impact of their behavior on others, and how it shapes others views of them.

    Speaking from my experience, my most drastic changes in behavior and most memorable lessons learned were ones where I realized either by my own self-reflection, or with the help of someone pointing my behavior out to me, how inappropriate my behavior or mistake was. This revelation is almost always followed by intense personal embarrassment. Embarrassment that still hangs around to this day, should I ever think about my actions at that time. (Have you ever just remembered something in your past and you relive the shame you felt?) Because of that embarrassment, I would never make those same mistakes.

    Now, if a teacher called me out, and TRIED to embarrass me by shaming me in front of others, I wouldn't have learned my lesson, and would likely just feel resentment at the teacher. But if a teacher pulled me to the side, and explained the mental, social, and physical consequences of my actions in an effort to help me make better decisions or to keep me from embarrassing myself in front of my peers, yes, I would be embarrassed, but it would be a personal thing, and I would be grateful to the teacher (or whoever) for helping me to realize my mistake and correct it before real damage was done, even if I felt embarrassed in front of the teacher.

    I don't think it's a good goal to keep a student from ever feeling embarrassed about anything in their lives, even if it might cause them some stress. Stress is a part of life.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  27. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,312
    Likes Received:
    1,666

    Feb 19, 2018

    Thank-you for this post. It was brilliantly said.

    I've never understood the desire to keep children from feeling shame, guilt, embarrassment, etc. No, we shouldn't be going out of our ways to make them feel it, but students are individuals in a sea of other individuals and we call that sea society. The aforementioned are real, legitimate feelings that serve a purpose. Can they be abused? Oh, yes. But when they come about as the result of a more-or-less natural consequence, they serve a very good purpose.
     
    2ndTimeAround likes this.
  28. FourSquare

    FourSquare Fanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,836
    Likes Received:
    314

    Feb 19, 2018

    Meh. There are 2 sides to every story. I'd want to see the teacher in action before I judge. I will say that trying to find your voice/style on the back of someone else NEVER works. Be yourself.

    In my first year teaching 2nd grade, I was hardcore on the struggle bus. They sent me to observe the best primary teacher in the school. She was a magical 1st grade teacher with some very difficult children that behaved almost perfectly for her. The class sang songs during transitions, had a classroom community poem, and a perfectly organized room that they had helped design. First graders.

    I tried really hard to replicate this lady's style and failed miserably. I was just way too brash and structured to be her.

    Ultimately I moved to middle school where I could smile less. :D
     
    Backroads and MissScrimmage like this.
  29. Master Pre-K

    Master Pre-K Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    6,291
    Likes Received:
    278

    Mar 17, 2018

    In my first cashier job, my 2nd trainer showed me the quick and dirty way to work. “Don’t say thank you, just give ‘em change and get next customer.” Needless to say, I thought I was doing my best to be quick (but rude) in front of the mgr. He let me go that evening.

    So I’m hanging on the fence - with one caveat - Never stating that I would purposely embarass my kids. Also in the boat with, ‘Don’t smile until Spring Break’. If you are too nice, some will run you ragged.

    That being said, as a preschool teacher, I have been told not to shame my kids. Do not point them out for mistakes. Redirect their behavior. “No, stop, don’t, and can’t” must be removed from my vocabulary.

    I see where praising John for sitting may encouage others to sit. But if I don’t tell Alicia to stop talking at Circle Time, how will she and the others realize this is not acceptable? If I ask my co-teacher to wisk Alicia away to a table and draw something, well - five other kids will start misbehaving so they can leave the group too!

    Embarass, no.
    Sarcasm, no...well maybe on Fridays.
    Shaming...indirectly

    I have to take the Yoda approach......

    “Hitting our friends, Marilyn are you??
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. TeacherNY,
  2. MrsC,
  3. waterfall
Total: 294 (members: 3, guests: 271, robots: 20)
test