High School Students Suspended for "Tebowing"

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Cerek, Dec 18, 2011.

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  1. bandnerdtx

    bandnerdtx Aficionado

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    Dec 20, 2011

    My daughter is just beginning the college application/scholarship process (she's a junior), and we've not found anything so far that asks for discipline records. I'll keep you posted if we do... I've never heard of it!

    As for the "touching" and "use of force", what I do know is that in my current and previous district, only those specifically trained to do so could use any kind of physical contact in the process of disciplining a student. The only exception to that was if the student or another student was in imminent danger.

    As someone has stated earlier, Tebowing (to MOST high school kids) is just like planking. They aren't doing it out of respect for Tebow. They aren't doing it because they want to pray. They are doing it because they think it's funny. ASK your students about it. Don't lead them to it. Just say, "Hey, what's Tebowing?" You'll see how they respond... You might have one or two who think it's a legit way to honor Tebow, but most likely, the majority will not.
     
  2. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Well, as you can see I posted the app and it DOES ask right on there if the student has had any discipline issues. I don't know how you can possibly argue with that when it's right in front of you. If your colleagues are saying "no" when the student has had discipline issues, they are flat out lying on the application. The application is the part that is filled out by the counselor, not by the student so I guess it is possible they haven't seen that part if they're not a counselor. It's also not part of the "transcripts", it's part of the counselor section. But the section for the counselor clearly asks the person to say yes or no AND explain the incident on a separate page. I have never, ever heard of an application NOT asking for discipline records, and I don't know how people are still arguing about this when I have posted tons of schools (including, by the way the major public unviersity network that these students would likely attend if they would like to stay in NY) that ask.
     
  3. KatherineParr

    KatherineParr Comrade

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Waterfall is correct. Those of you who don't remember probably never saw the section on discipline because it used to be completely the counselor's responsibility. The Common App now asks the student, too, and if you lie they see it.

    Suspension is a big deal in my school for precisely this reason. And any school in the first two tiers of the US News ranking is likely to notice. They may not care about it if your counselor explains it away. On the other hand, in the incredibly competitive climate of college apps these days, it would certainly disqualify a student from many excellent colleges and universities.

    Edit: MissCelia, our counselor showed me the form this year because we had a suspension issue and I wanted to be absolutely sure I understood how it would affect the student. It was right there, on the counselor's Common App evaluation form.
     
  4. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Really? Who assumed this? It wouldn't be motherly if you did this, but only because you're a dude.

    Additionally, I'm not arguing that me gently leading a student out of the room as they talk and talk and talk isn't force (in science terms). I am arguing that picking up a misbehaving student from the ground by his arm is far different from what I described above and I wouldn't likely do it, especially high school students.
     
  5. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Dec 20, 2011

    In the early 2000s my counselor didn't fill out anything for my college applications that I know of. I went to her office, asked for a transcript, and then filled out the application. And again, in helping my brother, no involvement from the counselor and no behavior section which required him to self-report. I think it's safe to say that different schools handle this differently so not one member is right or wrong.
     
  6. Chrissteeena

    Chrissteeena Companion

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    Dec 20, 2011

    I personally don't remember filling anything out, but I do know that my counselor filled out sections on some of my applications (not all). I don't know what she filled out or anything like that though. That was in 2003 when I was a junior.
     
  7. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    Dec 20, 2011

    I can pray walking down the hallway. I do frequently. We also have a minute of silence every day.

    No one has to know when I am praying, but I'm not doing it for attention. Not being these children, I don't know their true motivation.

    I do think they could have picked a better time and place.
     
  8. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Dec 20, 2011

    The classic example of the limits of free speech is that your right to free speech ends when you yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater. You have the right to say what you want. You do not have the right to endanger me in the panic that might very well ensue.

    In a similar vein, these kids are certainly have a right to pray. What they don't have a right to do is endanger other kids who might be hurt if other kids begin to push in a crowded hallway.

    What a professional football player chooses to do on a field is between him and his employer. What a 17 year old kid does in a hallway crowded with other minors is a different story.
     
  9. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Dec 20, 2011

    No need to get snippy. I was just sharing what I was told by both my principal and my counselors at the beginning of the year. These weren't just random coworkers. Our students in the past who had suspensions on their record had no trouble getting financial aid and getting into their top choice of colleges. It's really not the "career ender" some people make it out to be. For that matter, I was on academic probation during high school for a brief period, and I got a full tuition scholarship to a highly selective university. I don't think that this one suspension is going to ruin their lives. Since I've had students with suspensions on their records go to some of the schools you mentioned in the past few years, I don't think it will be a major factor.
     
  10. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Whether or not there were safety hazards in this situation, to me is irrelevant. Students did not have to push others around, they could have simply waited.
    The reason why I liked that these students did this, is because it is one more reason to get people (especially young people) talking about Tim Tebow. An excellent role model for people that age. I would much rather have them immitating and talking about a guy like him than say a football player who takes guns to clubs and shoots himself in the leg (just an example).
     
  11. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Dec 20, 2011

    To me, it's the crux of the whole issue.

    Their prayer would have been every bit as valid in a situation where they did not place others at risk.

    I teach in a school of 2,500. Trust me, there would be no one standing and waiting. Kids have to be on time for class or else. If one or two kids begin to push in a hallway, it's incredibly frightening. You have about 10 seconds to stop it before it becomes a mob with a life force of its own.

    Again, I'm all about prayer. We pray before school, at the start of each class, at noon, and at the end of the day. But I don't believe in creating a risk to the safety of others in order to pray publically.

    If this brings about an increase in church attendance, I'll be more than happy to make room in the pew on Sunday mornings.
     
  12. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Going off of that, if you stepped out into the hallway and saw kids standing waiting for this to clear and as a result those kids were late to class; would those students late get in trouble because they didn't push through? We switch for some things at my elementary school and sometimes students are late, if I see them running late in the hall I am out there and just tell them to hustle up. I know this situation is different, but a one time thing, is it really that big of a deal for those who would have been late by not the fault of their own?
     
  13. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Teenagers seldom think logically. Of course if there were a disturbance, it would be OK to be late. But kids don't always stop and realize that their teachers behave rationally.

    But what about the kids in the back who don't know that a few have chosen this particular moment to find God? They're the ones who will start pushing. And some 68 pound girl on crutches is going to get knocked over and seriously hurt.

    And then, of course, once it catches on, it becomes a regular thing. After 1st period, Tom and Joe need to pray for 5 minutes. After 2nd, it's Mike and John for 10. Then, after 3rd, it's Brian and Bob for 15. Slippery slope at its best.
     
  14. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Dec 20, 2011

    That makes sense. I guess I tend to work with an age of students who would be much more likely to just stand there and not doing anything until the teacher comes out and reminds them to continue moving.
     
  15. KatherineParr

    KatherineParr Comrade

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Teens are highly impulsive. I think Alice's view is correct.

    Celia, you reminded me that I, too, was on academic probation for a portion of my junior year in high school. It was a case of a lost assignment by the teacher, and I'm bitter to this day.

    BUT, just like you, it had no effect on my college admission. I went to one of the seven sisters. However, that was in 1991 and that school did not use the Common App. I checked a timeline for the Common App and it looks as if it really started to take off after 2002 or so. Since then, it's more than doubled the number of schools that use it (to a little less than 500).
     
  16. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Dec 20, 2011

    Academic probation is totally different from a suspension for discipline though. I assume you got your GPA back up, or you wouldn't have gotten into a good school.

    Also, just to clarify, when I say "scholarships" I mean merit scholarships, not financial aide. Middle class families don't really qualify for financial aide- I know I didn't. My dad's a teacher and my mom was a private school teacher making a third of a regular teacher's salary and I was so far out of the ranks for qualifying, it wasn't even funny. My "estimated family contribution" from fafsa was more than my dad's entire salary. I didn't even qualify for work study. Yes, I realize having a disciplinary record won't disqualify you for fafsa stuff. However it would most likely disqualify you for a highly competitive merit scholarship where they're looking at your entire record. There are also schools that let pretty much everyone in, and those schools may not care about a discipline record. But if you're trying to get into a great school, they do. I've never heard anything of the sort in my area, but I remember awhile back people posting that colleges in their area took students with scores of 9 or 10 on the ACT. I would imagine that those same schools might not care as much about the picture of the student as a whole- but maybe these students wanted to go to a good university.
     
  17. KatherineParr

    KatherineParr Comrade

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    Wow, that's really shocking.

    My father owned a small business. My mother was a social worker. Our contribution, as figured by FAFSA, was about 10,000 per year. I got loans and Wellesley made up the rest in "grants" (ie, a discount). Many, many schools do this.

    It's hard to imagine a FAFSA estimate that came back higher than the higher of the two parents' salaries. That would be...what? $50k?

    I taught at a college that accepted at least one student with a 13 on the ACT (I know this because he was my advisee!). It's true that they did not consider things like suspensions. They perceived their role as a service-oriented one. They provided post-secondary education for a region that desperately needed academic and financial assistance. So they thought more about opportunity than selectivity.

    But our counselor tells me that even the best schools want to know the reason for any suspension. Academic dishonesty is the real red flag. After that, there's some wiggle room depending on circumstance. And counselors have every reason to explain suspensions in ways that help the student. That's not lying, it's explaining circumstances. And lest you think these aren't students going to "good" universities, we're talking about a school that routinely sends its students to Harvard, Princeton, and MIT.

    There's no question that disciplinary acts appear on the Common App counselor form. But the effect of a suspension is really hard to gauge absent a full context.
     
  18. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Dec 21, 2011

    Overall, my view is the same as Alice, I have no objection to what the kids were doing - even the ones that were obviously just joining in to get on the video - but I do disagree with when, where and how they did it.

    If they want to Tebow in the hallway, they could do it in single file instead of blocking the entire hall (as long as they still make room for others to get to their lockers).
    If they wanted attention from their peers, they could do it in the cafeteria or outside, where they still have a big crowd, but wouldn't be blocking progress.
    If they really want to have a quick prayer, they could duck into an unused classroom. Or even a classroom that is about to be used, as long as they weren't blocking the door.
    If they just want to pay tribute to Tebow and emulate him, then they need to look at WHEN AND WHERE Tebow "Tebows". He might do it in the tunnel before coming onto the field, but he does NOT wait until the team is STARTING to run onto the field. He doesn't do it on the way out to the coin toss and he doesn't do it after making a long play on the field while the rest of the team is running down to the new line of scrimmage.

    In other words, while "Tebowing" may mean "to stop and pray while everyone around you is doing something different", it does NOT mean "get in the way of everyone around you so they have to watch while you stop and pray". In fact, while the Bible directs Christians to spread the Word and share their faith with others, it also speaks specifically against praying in public merely for the sake of appearance.

    I don't mind teenagers acknowledging Tim Tebow as a role model, but I think Tebow himself would likely tell the teenagers they should NOT block the hallway of their schools while doing it.
     
  19. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Dec 21, 2011

    I got enough need-based aid, and both of my parents were public school teachers at that time. The university where I went managed to put together a package of grants (and a few small loans) to make it reasonable for me to swing it. Many were need based, many were merit based. Basically, if a college wants a student badly enough, they will make it work for that student. A student I went to school with was suspended for skipping an athletic event to check into a hotel with her boyfriend, and she still went on to be a Rhodes scholar and finish up at Emory. A student (from a middle class family) where I teach was suspended a few years ago for being drunk at a sporting event and is now about to graduate from a pricey college. That student went there with the presidential scholarship, and several other merit based awards.

    Is it something that colleges look at? Yes. Is it something that will automatically ruin your life? No. Counselors have a lot of control over how the suspension is presented. Our district policy is that students can be suspended after six tardies.
     
  20. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Dec 21, 2011

    My EFC was over 70k. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that my parents have no debt whatsoever- something that pretty much no one can say these days. I also had a small savings myself (about 5k) that I'd built up from a small inheritence I got early in life. I would imagine most students don't have money of their own to list. So I guess, the fafsa estimated that theoretically we would have been able to live on my mother's salary alone (that would have put us just above the poverty line) and use my dad's to pay for school. I got a lot of merit scholarships and actually ended up paying almost nothing for college- but those were based on merit. I was a lifeguard and was luckily able to get a job at school even though I didn't qualify for work study- my boss insisted it was an important job and she wanted to hire who she wanted and somehow they let her hire some of us that were not on work study. I think the amount of money they give out now (I just graduated in 2010) is a lot less than they used to. I grew up in a very suburban middle class town and I don't know anyone that qualified for financial aide. One of my best friends was a twin (twin was also going to college, and there was another sister 2 years younger) with a single mom who worked as a custodian and she qualified for a lot of loans and work study, but no grants.
     
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