High School Students Suspended for "Tebowing"

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Cerek, Dec 18, 2011.

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  1. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Caesar, that is a valid opinion and the way you put it is very well stated. I disagree with the overall idea and beleive that there needs to be a decent balance of fear and respect. Of course more respect, but just enough fear in there.
    We baby kids too much these days.
     
  2. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Thank you for your reply, Caeser. I was commenting on the sadness that an innocent act by a teacher can be grounds for a potential lawsuit, but we can address the other part as well.

    So, please show me where I said I would push, pull, yank, hit or force the student or students in question? :)
     
  3. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I was speaking in generics. But you did say: I would have stepped in, taken the leader of the group by the arm and helped him stand up to show that it was time to move on.

    In my opinion, if you're going to take someone by the arm and help him stand up to show him that it was time to move on, that's the same as pulling/forcing. You're exerting your physical will onto the student and coercing him to do something that he isn't otherwise doing on his own.
     
  4. MissJill

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    What does instilling fear in kids do? Respect is one thing, fear is worthless. Teach respect, not fear.
     
  5. MissJill

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    Agreed.

    Hands off. It's different if you're being trained in physical restraint, I'm guessing this is for special needs students? Probably not some kids playing a joke in the hallway.
     
  6. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Sometimes it is necessary with certain students to make them get up and move. I have been around multiple students who would refuse to move and they needed to be "helped" into the moving position.
     
  7. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    In my district this is grounds for termination. Unless the student is in imminent danger or if there is a restraint order on file, the teacher should never, ever physically force a student to move from one position or location to another. The teacher should call for assistance if necessary and should continue giving verbal directives. It's not the easiest solution but I do agree that it is the best solution.
     
  8. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Of course you don't teach fear. Its like if you were making a recipe; you add a few dashes of salt for flavor in the cooking. If you pour too much in it can ruin the whole thing, just like too much fear. A delicate balance, but you need just enough to make it work just right. Kids today have very little fear and those same kids have very little respect. Most that I have seen who have a good balance of both, do very well.
    But fear is not something that should be instilled in them from the teacher, the understanding of that fear should more so come from home.
    Though chances are my explanation will still be taken the wrong way.
     
  9. MissJill

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    I'm sorry, but this whole conversation is becoming baffling.
     
  10. MissJill

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    What do you get out of making a kid fear you?!
     
  11. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Well I am quite glad that that is not the case where I work. Students need to know who is in charge. If they can sit there and not listen to directions to get up and move when it is necessary and just be allowed to do as they choose, that gives the student control they should not have.
    This is another example of the way many children today are babied way too much.
     
  12. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    My students know who is in charge. I think you and I just have different teaching styles and different expectations of our students.
     
  13. MissJill

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    You are a 4th grade teacher, are you telling me if a kid is not listening you are going to physically grab them in some sort of way? You are not even talking about high school kids here. I have 5th graders and I cannot even imagine touching them in a way to physically move them or what not. Please tell me though you have thought of this, you have never actually acted on it.
     
  14. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    you are concentrating on the teaspoon of fear instead of the 3 cups of respect.

    Though it was not intended, this has gotten completly off topic and if this needs further discussion should be taken to another thread.
     
  15. MissJill

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    I'm sorry, but a little sprinkle on the top of fear is too much.
     
  16. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    I am not talking about situations where a student is simply not following directions in a lesson I am giving.
    More specific examples: (this one has happened multiple times with different students over the years, some from my class, sometimes for other students I have had to help) A class has to leave the room to go somewhere else (lunch, music, etc.) and the student for some reason refuses to get and go. That student can not be left to sit in the classroom on their own with no supervision, they need to go where they have been told. I of course try verbal directions, but being a time sensitive issue I may try a couple of times and if it does not work, I will do something to make them get up. That could be, begin to take their chair, student stands as a result. Sometimes that is all it takes, if they refuse to move, a flat hand on their back directing them where to go has helped. Usually it is not more than that. Sometimes it could take gently lifting with open palms from under their elbows. It usually does not take much before the student gets the idea. This is not an often occurance that it happens, but it does and if verbal does not work, simple physical "helps" I do not see as a bad thing.
     
  17. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    You're right, that's what I said. You're also right that it is your opinion that constitutes physical force. I can only guess you're forming that opinion based on how much force you think I would actually use or exert and that is where you err.

    It can be done without using any force at all.
     
  18. MissJill

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    I can't believe you're able to get away with this.
     
  19. MissJill

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    You have kids right? You don't mind if a teacher moves them or touches them in some sort of way?
     
  20. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Yes, I have 3 boys. It would depend on what the boys were doing and how the teacher touch or moved them. If it were done in the fashion and with the amount of force (or lack of force) I described, then no, I would not be upset.
     
  21. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    As Cerek is saying, it depends on the situation, the amount of "force" and what is needed to have happen.

    I think in the situation I had described I was acting in the best interests of the student, since it is not safe to leave a student alone in a classroom. That is not safe and not allowed. If when my child is in school and this situation were to happen, I would have no problem with the teacher "helping" them to move. As long as a teacher does not hurt the child, they are doing what is necessary. NO, a teacher should never hurt a child. But making them move is far from hurting them.
     
  22. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Are you implying that you have never touched a student. I touch students all of the time for various reasons. On the head, on the shoulder, on the back. There is appropriate touching that I see absolutely nothing wrong with. We need to be realistic here.
     
  23. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    No, it's not opinion that putting your hand on a student's arm and helping him stand up is the use of force. It is force. I hear you saying that you don't believe that it's very much force, but it is force nonetheless. I don't believe that you can place a hand on a student and help him stand up without at least some force. If you could do it with no force, then there would be no need to place your hand on a student in the first place.

    In my opinion, no force whatsoever, not even a little bit, should be used in cases like the one described here.
     
  24. MissJill

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    I have gently touched a student on the shoulder to get their attention, but that is the extent of it. I have given high fives and hugs when they hug me, but that seriously makes me uncomfortable.
     
  25. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Again Ceasar, that is your opinion and your choice not to do that. I respect that opinion and if that works for you in the classroom, that is good.
     
  26. MissJill

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    What states are you people in that you can do this?
     
  27. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    That I am allowed to touch a student on his elbow or back and help a disobedient student follow directions?
    Would you rather me just sit there talking until I am blue in the face while the rest of my class is taught by...

    When a simple nudge can get the job done and not waste time. If you are not hurting the child in any way, and I have never hurt a child (other than accidental run intos, not at all intentional), what is the problem? What exactly is the problem with helping a student follow directions? How is my touching their back or their elbows a bad thing? Touching; not pulling, shoving, yanking, squeezing...touching.
     
  28. JustMe

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    I'm no science teacher, but I took ICP in high school and believe there is some type of science-y rule or law that explains what has been decribed is in fact a force. :p

    That said, I have placed my hand on students' shoulders as a guiding thing. For example, if a student is getting angry and I know he is about to lash out physically at another student, I will calmly and kindly lead the student in the opposite direction. Also, I have a few students who just won't go away...they keep talking after the bell, and talking, and talking...so as I smile and listen, I walk toward the door with the student and sometimes put my hand on their back also as a guiding thing...it's done in a "motherly" way and not in any way mean.

    But with high school students, I don't know if I would even do that. When disciplining, I really don't think I would.
     
  29. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    I see you're in Canda...it's probably different there. Here in the US pretty much any college asks for a discipline record. For some colleges, it may not hurt their chances of getting in (the really good ones it would), but for pretty much everywhere it would disqualify them for scholarships. Coming from a middle class family, we weren't "poor enough" to qualify for financial aide- without my scholarships I couldn't have gone to the school I did. One of my best friends got suspended our junior year of high school for a teenage mistake. She had a very good GPA, was involved in a lot of activities, and took a lot of honors/AP classes-pretty much the same as me. I got in everywhere I applied and was offered hefty scholarships for most places. She only got into one school, and wasn't offered any scholarships. At the same school, I was offered almost 5,000 in scholarships. That one incident changed her entire life- I'm not saying that they need to get away with everything scot-free, yes learning that actions have consequences is important. However a suspension is something that will follow them around forever and possibly change the path of their entire life. Over KNEELING IN THE HALLWAY. I just cannot even fathom how anyone thinks this extremely minor incident warrants a suspension. I cannot even wrap my head around that. I mean really I don't see how half of their students aren't suspended for something or other if this warrants a suspension. As a teacher, I would also never go running to the office simply because a kid took less than 10 seconds to do what I asked them to. That takes away all of your power and makes you look incompetent- we're expected to take care of these issues ourselves. What do they do when a real incident arises?
     
  30. JustMe

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    I applied to a few colleges out of high school and none required anything beyond a transcript. None of the scholarships required mine either. I wonder if others had to get complete records?

    I think to say they were suspending for kneeling in the hall is very much oversimplifying the situation.
     
  31. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    None of my schools required a discipline record or anything of the sort, either.
     
  32. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Every college I applied to required one- although I only applied to one "state" school as a back up. I applied to 6 places and they all, including the large public school, asked right on the application for you to even list detentions. You guys are older than me...perhaps this is something that has been added in more recent years.
     
  33. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I'm 31.

    I also work with students who are applying to college and none of the colleges they've applied to has listed a behavior or discipline record as part of the application materials. Can you provide a link or two showing big schools that require these sorts of things?
     
  34. JustMe

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    I am under thirty. I am also helping my little sister in this process as did I with my brother two or so years ago. Nothing required. I applied (and was admitted) to a private Christian school and public schools.
     
  35. waterfall

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    http://www.miami.muohio.edu/documents/admission/high-school/application/School_Report_11-12.pdf

    This is from Miami of Ohio, which uses the "common application" which is an online application used by several schools in the state. As you can see, it asks to list all disciplinary incidents. This section is also filled out by the counselor, so the student doesn't even get a chance to explain the incident themselves. MU is no Harvard, but it's a pretty good school and certainly not one that lets everybody in. This is one of the schools I applied to, but chose a private university instead. This is also one of the schools my friend (the one who was supspended but had similar gpa/classes/activities to me) applied to and didn't get in. I got in and was offered a place in the honors program with a scholarship. Assuming the school counselor agrees with the decision to suspend and sees this as the big issue the school apparently does, his/her despription of the incident would have a huge impact on the student's admission. Even if the school does admit the student, having a disciplinary incident on their record would most likely bar them from the "honors and scholars" program as well as scholarships which come with entrance into that program.

    ETA: About the "common application"
    The application is supported by many public universities in the states of New York, New Jersey, Maine, Maryland, Massachusets, Connecticut, Vermont, Delaware, Virginia, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Michigan and Colorado. Of all the states, the State University of New York (SUNY) system has the most colleges that accept The Common Application.

    Some of the colleges include Centenary College of Louisiana, Elmira College, Jacobs University in Bremen, Moravian College, Ringling College of Art & Design, Stanford University, Westmont College. All of the prestigious Ivy League schools accept The Common Application, and these include Yale, Brown University, Columbia University, Harvard, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth College and Princeton.
     
  36. JustMe

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    Oh, I didn't mean to imply some schools don't...I've just never dealt with an application requiring this information.
     
  37. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Bob has already explained how one can help a student in the right direction without applying any real force. You and some others have done the same when you say you place your hand gently on the student; either to get their attention or to point them in the right direction. I think it's interesting that this is considered to be done in a "motherly" fashion when a female member does it, but assumed to be mean or forceful when a male teacher mentions it. I'm not trying to pick on you, because other members have admitted they also place a gentle hand or touch on a student every now and then. I would imagine most teachers do that at some point in time, quite possibly without even thinking about it.

    Addressing this incident specifically; if I truly felt the need to disperse the crowd and verbal directives weren't working, I could walk over to the leader of the group, take him by the arm (the same as placing a hand on the shoulder - touching to focus their attention but not applying any actual force) and tell the student in a more direct and firm tone they need to get up and move along to their class now. Thus, I would help the student make the desired decision to stand up and move along to their next class without having to use any force.

    As I said before, it can be done without using any force at all.
     
  38. McKennaL

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    I'm going to agree with Alice's comments below. Though I put this up for further debate.

    This reminds me a bit about the arguement I heard more recently about the "I LOVE BOOBIES" bracelets that kids were wearing. One mom/teacher talked to her kids and asked what the REAL reason was that they so wanted to wear the bracelets.

    Of course they said things like "My aunt (or "the half-sister twice removed of my favorite Twilight star - go Team Jacob!") has cancer, I want to support her." etc.

    But then she talked to them about how their bracelets, though perhaps well-meaninged, were causing a disturbance...and what about showing your support by wearing a similar looking bracelet that said "Help Fight Breast Cancer" or "Give to Breast Cancer research efforts!" If the kids agreed, you knew that they supported the CAUSE! If they fight the Equal but different solution in favor of the stir-causing shock bracelets - THEN you know it's not the cause at all. (Hmmm... I write this and.. why does PETA come to mind?)

    I am wondering if the option were given to - duck into a classroom during passing period to tebow or you can do it ONE-DEEP along the east side of the hallway as long as there are not lockers on that side of the hall (causing people not to be able to reach their lockers)... if that would cut back the "doing it for show-ers".

    To say, "take it to the chapel" is fine - yet IF you truly believe in what TEBOW is presenting... taking the instant to give praise - HERE and NOW-no matter what... then the "take it to the chapel later on" is not a solution.

    ***BTW, Yes, I understand that in situations like this, maybe 20% MEAN it - 40% are going along and 40% just want to do ANYTHING to screw up the works and put attention on themselves.

     
  39. McKennaL

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    wow... here I responded to the posting of much earlier... I see that this has turned into a discussion about appropriate touches. And YES, I do touch my students APPROPRIATELY. HERE it is called non-verbal communication... and it is encouraged (enough to be discussed at every interview that *I* have ever gone on).
     
  40. MissCeliaB

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    I asked at a faculty meeting at the beginning of the year and was told that discipline records are not a part of the transcripts that go with students to colleges. I know we had several students suspended for some fairly major infractions and they have had no trouble getting into college and getting financial aid. Many of them are attending college that accept the Common App, and even some on the list above.
     
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