Have you ever been trained.....

Discussion in 'General Education' started by scholarteacher, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. scholarteacher

    scholarteacher Connoisseur

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    We're told--AFTER incidents occur--what we can and can't do when a student runs wild. Like, we can't even hold their hand--that's considered illegal restraint. If a student is attacking us or another student, we can't even pull them off. If they try to run off--even out of the building or on a field trip--we can't even hold their hand to stop them. We're told to let them run, but I'm not sure that's wise either. Does your school/district/state train you on what you can and can't do?
     
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  3. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Oh, screw that. And as they're attacking you or beating the holy crap out of an innocent student, you....? Take pictures? And as a child runs into traffic you...say a prayer?

    ETA: To answer the question, no.
     
  4. giraffe326

    giraffe326 Virtuoso

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    No, we don't get trained.

    And that is crazy! It sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen!
     
  5. Rox

    Rox Cohort

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    We've been trained in Nonviolent Crisis Intervention. Our workshop taught us more how to avoid being attacked rather than how to defend yourself/hurt an attacker. My district requires us to retake it every 2 years or so. Have you been able to find the law that states that holding hands is an illegal restraint? Does your school/district have a written document with procedures that are to be followed in instances such as these?
     
  6. Math

    Math Cohort

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    That is just not right. I really do not like, "if a student is attacking us or another student, we can't even pull them off." I'm sorry but I will defend myself no one will have the opportunity to beat me to oblivion. I believe at least two teachers should be there so that each student could be restrained. If there is only one then the other student will have the opportunity to attack the restrained student. Now, on the other hand of letting a student run away from school. That doesn't seem wise but that is a consequence your district would have to deal with. So I personally would just do what they told me in that case.
     
  7. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    We've had to watch several students run away (or walk away) from school. We just call the police. I agree that it's easier to take a hands-off approach when it's a teen choosing to walk away.
     
  8. msufan

    msufan Comrade

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    This is foolish. I had to stop a child from darting into traffic once, and in my school, we've all been trained on proper (physical) restraint techniques. I believe the people telling you holding a child's hand is illegal are incorrect.
     
  9. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    From the North Carolina Education Code

    § 115C‑390.3. Reasonable force.
    (a) School personnel may use physical restraint only in accordance with G.S. 115C‑391.1.
    (b) School personnel may use reasonable force to control behavior or to remove a person from the scene in those situations when necessary for any of the following reasons:
    (1) To correct students.
    (2) To quell a disturbance threatening injury to others.
    (3) To obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects on the person, or within the control, of a student.
    (4) For self‑defense.
    (5) For the protection of persons or property.
    (6) To maintain order on educational property, in the classroom, or at a school‑related activity on or off educational property.
    (c) Notwithstanding any other law, no officer or employee of the State Board of Education or of a local board of education shall be civilly liable for using reasonable force in conformity with State law, State or local rules, or State or local policies regarding the control, discipline, suspension, and expulsion of students. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the claimant to show that the amount of force used was not reasonable.
    (d) No school employee shall be reprimanded or dismissed for acting or failing to act to stop or intervene in an altercation between students if the employee's actions are consistent with local board policies. Local boards of education shall adopt policies, pursuant to their authority under G.S. 115C‑47(18), which provide guidelines for an employee's response if the employee has personal knowledge or actual notice of an altercation between students. (2011‑282, s. 2; 2012‑149, s. 10.)
     
  10. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    In the military we called them "barracks lawyers."
     
  11. Mr.history

    Mr.history Cohort

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    Yeah that doesn't sound right. What would a parent do if you told them you watched their 1st grader walk out the door and they got hit by a car? Just sounds dumb, you grab the kid and call their parents.

    I do think about this sometimes. When I was student teaching(high school) I saw two girls get in a fight. 2 male teachers grabbed them by the shoulders and put them in different classrooms. One of the girls was pregnant. On the one hand I don't think male teachers are supposed to break up fights between female students, but would have happened if they did nothing and the girl lost her baby? Sometimes you have to just make rash decisions and hope everything is ok I guess.

    Another thing I've been thinking about. Do you guys pay for liability insurance? My state doesn't have unions but I can pay about $150 to join PAGE and get insurance each year. I think I may do it.
     
  12. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    In my state we aren't allowed to use physical force to correct behavior or protect property or anything like that. We're only allowed to use physical force when the student is in immediate physical danger. I agree with this policy in general.
     
  13. TeachTN

    TeachTN Comrade

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    That's why I joined the union while I was student teaching and will again when I am employed. As one of my professors put it, I like my house, car, and bank accounts, so I want to make sure I am covered.
     
  14. Zelda~*

    Zelda~* Devotee

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    Yes, I am trained in CPI. I take training every year and have a card I carry in my wallet.
     
  15. Emily Bronte

    Emily Bronte Groupie

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    We are trained in nonviolent crisis intervention as well.
     
  16. Blue

    Blue Aficionado

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    I ran several ECE businesses. I always carried liability insurance.
     
  17. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    In the Uk we are allowed to lay hands on the kids for their own safety or for the safety of others. However the rules say the level of force used must be comensurate with the problem. So decking a kid with a piece of 2 by 4 for shouting at you is not allowed but pulling one child off another for the safety of the child being attacked is allowed. Grabbing a child who is about to run into a road is allowed.
     
  18. scholarteacher

    scholarteacher Connoisseur

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    Wow, you guys are awesome! In NC we don't have teacher unions, but just teachers' organizations we can join. We've never been shown a copy of the law and the teachers I know have never found it online--didn't know where to look, I guess. (Thanks, Sarge!) But we're told at our school that if we use any form of restraint--including holding a kindergartener's hand--that the teacher assoc. can't back us up because we've broken a law!
    All that stuff is good to know! Thanks!
     
  19. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    Back on the farm we called that "common sense."
     
  20. MissScrimmage

    MissScrimmage Aficionado

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    We are allowed to do what any reasonable parent would do.... whatever that means. I have held students' hands to prevent them from bolting. If a student runs away we are to make sure we can supervise from a distance - it's not supposed to be a game of chase. We are trained in preventing and responding to violent outburtsts.
     
  21. eternalsaudade

    eternalsaudade Companion

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    I am trained in Non-Violent Crisis Intervention (CPI), as is most of the staff at my school. If your district offers this training, I'd definitely recommend it.

    If a student is attacking another student, I'd think it would be within your best judgement to pull them off. If I were a parent, I would not be too happy if a teacher did not try to protect my child as they were being attacked. I usually try to pull them from behind and into a restraint position so that I am still using proper restraint techniques. As far as running, we usually avoid running after them assuming it is on school grounds because it can become a game of chase, but we try to make sure we know where they are. However, if a child is putting themselves in danger, you should probably go after them.
     
  22. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    A few years back it wasn't so. It was once said that if you saw something falling off a building onto a child you couldn't push the child out of the way. But like you say common sense now prevails (mostly):lol:
     
  23. Em_Catz

    Em_Catz Devotee

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    The only thing my school has "said" (by which I mean word of mouth from seasoned teachers) is that you can't strike a child or restrain them. I have also heard that if you feel like you want to hit a child and cannot get away from them to put your hands up and say, "MY HANDS ARE UP!" loudly. I've also been told to get a witness if possible.

    While I've never hit a child, I have restrained them. Once another child actually restrained a child for me. (the girl had O.D.D. and was running around my class and into the hallway toward the door. Another child saw her and grabbed her hands and didn't let go until I got to her)

    I also put a child in a bear hug while waiting for the admin when the child began to viciously attack me (ie: kicking, trying to bite, punching me in the breasts, scratching, etc).

    I have also held too many hands and wrists of wayward children to name.

    It sounds silly, but there should be a self defense class for teachers against students. Not where we are learning to hurt the children, but where we learn what is and is not allowed when a child physically or verbally attacks us.
     
  24. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    My district sort of has this, in the form of a video that we have to watch at the beginning of each school year. It is one of the only really useful videos that they make us watch (and they make us watch a ton of videos every year).
     
  25. Em_Catz

    Em_Catz Devotee

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    Is it online? I know that we are all discreet on here and I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable in exposing too much information about your real life BUT if it is online, I would appreciate a link (either here or via PM if you feel uncomfortable) because if I had a kid do something crazy like:

    1. Spit in my face
    2. Slap me
    3. Bite me

    I wouldn't know what to do except maybe push them out the room and hold the door shut until someone arrived to get them
     
  26. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I totally wouldn't mind sharing it with you, but it's not accessible to people outside the district. It's posted on our district professional development site, and you need a login and password to view it. I'll see if I can find a public copy online anywhere. If I do, I'll share the link here.
     
  27. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    That's usually what we do with our violent student. He doesn't spit, slap or bite but he will push me when trying to get to the other students to punch or kick them. I have my AP's cell phone number so I usually text him because I'd rather he come in and deal with removing him because when it's really bad he gets more and more violent as you try to move him to the door to get him out of the room. But the goal is usually to get him out into the hallway. (Where he will then rip down our bulletin board- happens almost on a weekly basis but of course it's better than anyone getting hurt.) We lock the classroom door and notify the AP and guidance counselor. Also I'm on the first floor so the security guard can usually see this happening but he can't always leave his post to come help.
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I should add that in my district this would be a HUGE violation. It is on the short list of actions that will get a teacher fired immediately. Holding the door shut on a student amounts to a seclusion, which is never allowed except when there's a doctor's order in place or when it has been approved ahead of time by the powers that be. Even then, there are very strict guidelines about when a seclusion can happen, for how long, and who can authorize one.

    Edit: I misread the original comment and thought it referred to locking a student inside a room that they couldn't leave. I see now that what was actually said was locking the student out of a room. I'm not sure that qualifies as a seclusion, but still it would not be appropriate at my school. We aren't allowed to leave students unsupervised in the hallways, especially when they are having a violent outburst where they could harm others or themselves.
     
  29. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

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    I should add that with my student I was mentioning he has a paraprofessional who is out in the hallway with him when we send him out.
     
  30. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    I know it sounds extreme, but if I was ever fired because I locked a violent kid out of my classroom, you would all see me on national news. I wouldn't stop making noise until the day I died. What a stupid policy.
     
  31. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    So you'd rather have a violent kid out in the hallway unsupervised?
     
  32. Em_Catz

    Em_Catz Devotee

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    This is why I'd like to see the video because I have no idea how to handle a situation like that.

    When this child gets extremely violent 99% of the time it is directed at a female teacher (never males). Last year he attacked his Kindergarten teacher numerous times. Then he was moved to a new room and attacked that teacher too by biting a chunk out of her arm :eek:.

    Today, he put one of my student's in the hospital by kicking her in the face. No word yet if her nose is broken or just badly bruised. :(

    Another time when he was on a violent spree he began running around my room knocking things over, throwing chairs, etc.

    I dragged him into the hall and called out to another teacher to please stand and be a witness.

    I ended up having to restrain him because he turned around and kicked me HARD in my cast. Then he punched me in the breast, then screamed and tried to punch and kick me some more.

    Finally I grabbed him from behind in a kind of a behind bear hug until help arrived. I was angry and I did not want to do it because he was squirming and screaming trying to get away and I was afraid he might twist and dislocate or break a bone, then I'd be liable. But I couldn't let him keep attacking me either.

    If it's a choice between allowing the children or myself to be harmed, or putting him in the hallway, it's a hard choice, but I pick the hall. I know, I know, what if another child is out there? But then what about the 30+ kids in my room that need protection?

    Please send me the link whenever you get a chance. It could save my job someday.
     
  33. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    As a male teacher I have had to help restrain a few wild students over the years (students from my own class and other teachers). Usually it is expected to be an administrator who is to do the restraining, but if they are not their, you do what you need to safely to keep both hat child from getting hurt and from hurting others. I do believe we have had a training or two about these types of students over the years, but for the most part we are told to use common sense to help keep everyone involved safe.
     
  34. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    What a mess of a situation, Em. When he kicked my cast and punched me in the breast, I'm afraid my intincts would get me fired.
     
  35. bros

    bros Phenom

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    When I took Introduction to Education, my professor shared with us some tips from her restraint classes, in case we encountered anything in the field (as some students were placed in rather... violent districts), one of the tips was with the younger kids, sit on the ground and do a backwards bear hug.

    She also recommended a denim jacket for anyone going into special education to help with biters.
     
  36. Em_Catz

    Em_Catz Devotee

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    I've never tried doing a backward bearhug while sitting. When you do that, does it make it harder for the child to squirm? I've done the standing backwards bearhug, but I'm scared to hold on to a child too tight for fear I could break a rib, cut off their air way or do some sort of serious damage that would have me on the 6 o'clock news covering my face. :(
     
  37. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I don't recommend doing any kind of restraint without prior approval, direction, and training from your admin.

    The hold you're talking about is often called a basket hold. If not done properly, it can cause serious injury or even death.
     
  38. EdEd

    EdEd Aficionado

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    Definitely an interesting post Sarge about laws in NC. Restraints could always be against another law (e.g., federal, local), but the NC law you cited definitely seems to be more permissive.

    To me, the big issue here is that schools just don't proactively train teachers. The truth is that kids can die from improper restraints, so the idea that one should simply ignore that they have no training and physically intervene when they sit probably isn't smart. Still, without being able to restrain, teachers can be put in some pretty tough situations where there is no reasonable alternative.

    The NC law aside, teachers who use restraints without being trained are opening up a world of danger. It may be one thing to guide someone by hand physically (still a bad idea), but actually engaged in a full on restraint (e.g., basket hold) or picking up and carrying a child is just, simply, a really dangerous and bad idea. There's just too much that can happen.

    Another thought - you can break up a fight without using a restraint. If you put your arm in between two students and guide one away (and the student willingly follows), then you aren't restraining. Restraining means you are physically preventing the student from doing something.
     
  39. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    When I first qualified to teach I was about 3 weeks into my first job. I teach science but was given a few classes of PE to fill my timetable. I walked into the Gym to find two yr 10 boys (9th grade) slugging it out being cheered on by the rest of the class. having received no training about this I instinctivly grabbed the boys by the hair and pulled them apart and held them at arms length until they ran out of steam. Neither complained about me. However that was 23 years ago and I was still playing rugby back then. I doubt I could subdue two strong lads in the same way today. We are supposed to receive training in restraint but we have not. Should a similar situation arise now I do not know how I would react with it.
     
  40. bros

    bros Phenom

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    May 4, 2013

    Maybe you should ask your district for training in nonviolent restraint techniques?
     

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