Has anyone had this or an opposite experience?

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Tired Teacher, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Nov 28, 2019

    I was reading about a poster who was doing fine w/a behavior problem student until a behavior coach started interfering. We do not have behavior coaches, but we have an enabling, inexperienced, interfering, sped dept. that shows up,observes, and tries to tell teachers what to do once they've heard a kid flipped out. Not only do they have a whole different philosophy on education than the rest of the teachers, they make the kids worse. They give out trinkets to kids for things like: sitting for 5 minutes, doing a worksheet 1x, and other things the kid is already very capable of doing.
    They allow kids to get away w/ crazy behavior, do not believe in any form of consequences, and make excuses for "their kids" often blaming the child who told the truth that makes "their student" look bad. They use the word "their" even when the kid is w/ the teacher most of the time if not all.
    The more people like this you get into the "mix", the worse the student (s) become. One of my bf's is dealing w/ this now. She was getting an unruly kid under control using both natural positive and negative consequences.
    The use of any system takes time. The kid was getting better with her consistency.
    Now this group has decided to focus on 1 of her kids. They give him tons of sympathy for things he perceives are wrong w/ his family and class.
    I know him well. He is a manipulator and used to getting his own way through throwing all out fits. He is very capable of not throwing fits. I have seen him many times, stop, assess the situation, and quickly ponder if it is in his best interest to flip out. Who is there? Who is not? What are we doing next? He's actually smart and other than behavior would not qualify for sped services.
    The aides question the kid out of nosiness in my opinion. Then gossip about it and make it seem like "poor kid." I know it is really hard to find sped aides, but this has gotten way out of hand. The kid is back to ground zero because of their tactics.
    Does your sped department have similar ideas on behavior as your general ed teachers? I try to tell myself this group is just way off base, but they have screwed up quite a few kids this way over the last few years. I also just try to think it is lack of knowledge on their part. We had really good sped people where I came from , so I know not all people in sped are like this.
     
  2.  
  3. ssgirl11

    ssgirl11 Companion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    71

    Nov 30, 2019

    YES! This situation sounds exactly like what's going on at my school. Quite frankly, I'll have one of these kids in my class next year, and I'm terrified. Last I heard, teachers were given football blockers to use so the kid can throw soft balls at them. They are creating monsters.
     
    Tired Teacher and MrTempest like this.
  4. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Nov 30, 2019

    I wonder if we work at the same place! I have worked w/ top- notch sped in the past, but something has majorly changed w/ this fairly new crew. It is a philosophy change in certain areas or training, IDK. Yeah, it is getting to be too much when you have to block yourself. That philosophy not only creates monsters, but destroys any chance of a future for certain kids. I don't even understand how anyone can believe that is the right way to " help or care" about kids.
     
  5. ssgirl11

    ssgirl11 Companion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    71

    Dec 1, 2019

    100% agree. It's almost as if they are just trying to please these kids so they don't have to deal with them or the parents. It's doing a complete disservice to the child. A few of our new SPED crew gets incredibly offended and defensive if we try to make the SPED kids work or give them too much to do. I get that we need to reduce the workload, but it's getting out of hand.
     
    nstructor and Tired Teacher like this.
  6. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,955
    Likes Received:
    1,119

    Dec 1, 2019

    Maybe it’s time that someone explain to your SPED crew that it’s not all about them and that it is okay to give the students some work to do.
     
    Obadiah and Tired Teacher like this.
  7. ssgirl11

    ssgirl11 Companion

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    71

    Dec 2, 2019

    Already there! We scheduled a meeting with admin to discuss this, not that it will necessarily get us anywhere, because this their attitude as well.
     
  8. futuremathsprof

    futuremathsprof Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,955
    Likes Received:
    1,119

    Dec 2, 2019

    Yay! Well done.
     
    Tired Teacher and ssgirl11 like this.
  9. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 7, 2019 at 12:07 PM

    Do you think it is due to some new philosophy? I partially do, but at the same time, I think they are doing exactly what you say. Avoiding all problems w/ the student and parent in order to make their lives easier. It is like they are not thinking about what they are doing to the child.....forming his/her personality, work ethic, or ability to function in society. SMH
     
    ssgirl11 likes this.
  10. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,483
    Likes Received:
    991

    Dec 7, 2019 at 12:16 PM

    Seems like every year I have one or two who rule the roost. They know how to play everyone and seem to end up getting their way. It is very frustrating to me, and I know it is frustrating to the other kids who see this kid getting away with things that others can't.

    It isn't new, though. I'm on year 27, and there have always been those kids around. It's not always SED either. It is kids with IEP, 504, gifted, involved parents, uninvolved parents. I wish I knew where the issue really was.
     
    nstructor, bella84 and Tired Teacher like this.
  11. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 7, 2019 at 12:35 PM

    It has gotten a lot worse in my experience over the yrs. It may be caused in big part by a move. The cultures and values are very different here compared to where I was before. Also, I spent a lot of time teaching gifted classes. Their parents can be tricky in different ways, but they value education and most were good people. There were some crazies there too. I remember parents yelling at me 1x, "We gave you 100% material to work with (their daughter), how could she have an 87% as a grade?" :)
    Also, 27 yrs ago, where I worked, kids who hit, cussed out teachers, kicked, spit, and threw things were not put in the general population. I don't think I even knew they existed. They were in small classrooms, taught at their levels, and not allowed to disrupt the learning of others.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019 at 12:53 PM
    ssgirl11, nstructor and bella84 like this.
  12. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,483
    Likes Received:
    991

    Dec 7, 2019 at 2:05 PM

    Yes, I do think that's a major issue. We have three SED teachers who all work as collaborating teachers. We have NO resource/self-contained classes except for the severe disabilities. We have no EBD teachers in the entire district. No self-contained SED classes. Some kids need that. One of my classes has 10 kids with an IEP, and 6 of those need a lot of attention due to behaviors. Even with two of us in the room all the time, we short-change the SED kids who can behave, and the regular ed kids are mostly left to work on their own.
     
    nstructor, Tired Teacher and bella84 like this.
  13. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 7, 2019 at 3:09 PM

    That was my class last yr. Never again, if I can help it! We do not have any self contained classes either. I think that is 1 of the reasons we now have these types of behavior problems in classrooms. For a long time, I blamed video games, lack of parenting ( I still do ,at times..lol) for the crap teachers have to put up w/. Then I remember the days when we had self contained classes in their own wing.
     
    bella84, ssgirl11 and nstructor like this.
  14. Missy

    Missy Aficionado

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    234

    Dec 8, 2019 at 4:52 AM

    PBIS will be the death of my district, if admin does not start to deal effectively with our violent students.
     
  15. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,758
    Likes Received:
    1,682

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:10 AM

    It is not PBIS, it is ineffective and incorrect implementation of PBIS that is your district's problem.
     
  16. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    834

    Dec 8, 2019 at 6:54 AM

    M&M Therapy--That's what it was called when I first started teaching. What they ought to do is set up such a system for the teachers. Yes. The teacher consistently arrives, oh, let's have some real fun, the teacher arrives 15 minutes late every day. Ah, poor little teacher. Let's give the teacher a special pay bonus for every day s/he arrives on time. Of course, we need to keep it a secret from the other teachers who arrive even 30 minutes early every day; we don't want them to feel slighted for not getting the raise. Of course, this tardy teacher will brag about it, but that's OK, too. S/he can't help it if the inner clock isn't as punctual as others.
     
    Tired Teacher likes this.
  17. Missy

    Missy Aficionado

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3,672
    Likes Received:
    234

    Dec 8, 2019 at 8:49 AM

    They are only implementing tier 1, after three years.
     
    Tired Teacher likes this.
  18. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    3,495
    Likes Received:
    1,473

    Dec 8, 2019 at 1:11 PM

    I remember this too... When I was in seventh grade (in 1996-97), I remember I had a class that was just outside of double doors that led to the sped wing. We weren't ever told what was back there, but we weren't allowed to go there. Most days, we didn't see anyone walk through those doors. One day, I saw a student with down syndrome walk through with a para (I assume), and I remember it being the strangest experience. I didn't even know what down syndrome was at the time, but I also had never spent much time around students with such significant disabilities. I just remember thinking "Who are those people and what are they doing back there?"

    I don't think we should go back to those days... Inclusion is important. But it's being implemented so poorly in so many cases. I now have a student with autism causing significant behaviors in my general education classroom. It's all a manifestation of his disability, so there are no consequences other than a brief talking-to (that he likely doesn't fully grasp) by the para or sped teacher. He's allowed to throw pencils, clipboards, books, and teachers' cell phones across the room, sometimes hitting his peers in the process and other times just knocking over or damaging property. He has even kicked a student in the head, and he's definitely caused several engaging lessons to come to a halt. I keep waiting for another student to go home and complain of being hurt so that a parent will call and complain, because me expressing my concerns surely isn't getting anyone anywhere. How did we swing so far on the opposite end of the pendulum?
     
    Tired Teacher likes this.
  19. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 8, 2019 at 2:24 PM

    That is the million dollar question. Almost all systems in this world have forms of corruption. Hospitals charge an arm and a leg for an aspirin. Surgeons encourage some surgeries w/out encouraging better options. Often doctors insist on doing expensive tests on people that are unnecessary. Money is a huge factor and often the bottom line of hospitals.
    Even nonprofits have pushes for $ and encourage ( sometimes they even tell employees) to bill for things that are not within the laws just from my experience. They often use people who do not know the law, who are willing to look the other way because they need their paycheck, or can justify their actions in their own mind. I think as humans, we all can justify things. Some are just not aware of what they are doing.
    Most psychologists ( My guess is 99%, but I maybe jaded.) will give you a minor diagnosis if you want to see them and have insurance. It is the only way your insurance will pay for continued visits. I've known kind- hearted psychs who say, " The person is in pain, needs help, and giving them a minor diagnosis is the only way to help them." ( It used to be billed under Adjustment Disorder a lot.) Justification at its finest.
    About 15 years ago, I knew a group of women who worked at Wells Fargo briefly. They were all very stressed out and looking for other jobs. One told me part of the problem was they had quotas put on them to recruit so many customers a month to get credit cards. Then later it all came out that tellers were opening 2nd accounts w/out people's knowledge due to pressure from higher ups. That's when I thought back to that group of women..
    School systems I think are corrupt too. I am not skilled at law, but I do remember " The least restrictive environment a student can be successful in." LRE is often quoted while the 2nd half is dropped. Is that child who is kicking, screaming, cussing, throwing things REALLY being successful? I think NOT. You are right inclusion is not being properly implemented. Why? It costs a lot of $$$ to hire aides/ properly trained teachers and make special , small schools for SED children. . All I can think of, is it is about $$$.
     
  20. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:26 PM

    I get it too. I am sure a lot of behavior programs would work if used correctly. ( As long as they allow for natural consequences.) Our school used it in "name itself" to say we had a behavior system because we were required to have 1.
    All PBIS did for us was took away consequences. Look out though. Trauma informed schools are next. When they arrive, every bad behavior comes back to what YOU can do to help and understand the student. Kid kicks you and you hear, "What can YOU do to ensure the child does not feel frustrated and kick you again? Sympathy goes out to the frustrated kid while you have bruised shins!
    I am just guessing that is not what the system is really supposed to do. I really am at a point that I don't care anymore. I know...time for me to go! I will be done soon.
     
    bella84 likes this.
  21. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:30 PM

    Exactly! Schools are doing a huge disservice to these kids. Real life is a shockeroo and I actually still kind of feel sorry for the kids who have been allowed to get away w/ everything. I have watched some as they've grown. I have seen what life has in store for them. It is not pretty either.
     
  22. vickilyn

    vickilyn Magnifico

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,830
    Likes Received:
    2,445

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:43 PM

    Real life is what they experience once they leave school, and many, indeed, will struggle to adapt. Not saying they won't adapt, but I do think that they will continue to blame others for their lot in life longer than students who were held accountable during their years as a student. The one positive is that it is never too late to learn.
     
    Tired Teacher and bella84 like this.
  23. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:46 PM

    We were never really trained in PBIS more than part of an inservice day years ago. All I know is we were supposed to give out tickets to kids who did something good. Sped ruined it for the school by giving out massive tickets for behavior that they already were doing. Example: You ate your lunch. 2 tickets.....Other kids saw Sped kids had massive tickets and they were not desirable.
    Then every 9 wks, we had a community building party. All kids were allowed to attend. If they had cussed out a teacher 5 minutes before the party, they still attended. I think (but could be wrong) that if a kid misbehaved they were supposed to see a counselor, but that NEVER even happened. I know it could not have possibly been used correctly at our school. I am guessing it worked at your school and I am curious. Were there any consequences for poor behavior?
     
  24. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:51 PM

    It puts an end to office referrals or consequences which is what our admin wanted too, I am guessing.
     
    ssgirl11 likes this.
  25. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    601
    Likes Received:
    300

    Dec 8, 2019 at 5:57 PM

    It seems their personalities get formed young. If their parents do not help instill qualities needed and neither does the school, it is pretty hard to change those deep seeded beliefs. We can only hope that it is never too late.
     
  26. Obadiah

    Obadiah Groupie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    834

    Dec 9, 2019 at 6:57 AM

    Here's where my thoughts and observations have been, lately. Change has occurred since I was growing up and since I began teaching. When I was a kid, we didn't need signs at an occasional house reminding us to "Just be kind." It was the odd situation for the occasional person not to be kind. When I was a kid, rules were rules, not just suggestions to choose to obey or not. Changes I've noticed:

    I began teaching in the D.C. area. On the beltway, most drivers were considerate of other drivers; today, in my mostly rural area, I have just recently, as of last week, decided not to drive on the freeway that cuts through our area unless I absolutely must. I'm not talking about minor speeding or the little things drivers have always done to make time; (personally, I prefer to follow the laws, but I can understand differences in driving habits). No, I'm talking about people driving like they've only had a crash course in drivers ed, and by crash, I mean crash! (My thoughts, I just plain don't have the time or the money to play the part of a crash test dummy). Back to my subject, however, another example:

    Recycling. In my area, we have a self service landfill for non-recyclable trash and recycling areas. At my local recycling area, how hard is it to put cans in the can container, various papers in the various papers container, various bottles in their respective containers....But no, I find people dump everything in one container, or worse yet, throw it on the parking lot for someone else to put it in. Worse yet, they save a buck by throwing their non-recyclables in the container (or parking lot) too.

    Crime. I've mentioned this before, but our current catastrophic crime rate was rare when I was growing up. Today, it's common place and almost expected! When I was a kid, there was a murder in my area that even made national news; today, such crimes are common place! We have drug dealers, shoplifting stealers, bank robbers (3 times walking distance from my house within the last 10 years), school lockdowns....Within just the past 10 years, I have had friends who've encountered burglaries, one at gunpoint. We had a gun drawn at our local mall--I have a friend who's a security guard at the mall. I pray for his safety. When I grew up, our neighborhood was my playground. My parents thought nothing about letting us ride our bikes anywhere in our town. Today, I don't blame one of my neighbors for carrying a baseball bat with him whenever he walks. Listen, when I lived in D.C., crime central at that time, it wasn't even this bad!

    Impatience. Even TV is reflecting this. I don't watch much of it, but when I've caught a glimpse of a current DVD, I've noticed that everythingiscrammedtogether in a hurried, get through to the commercial, race. I recently read Dick van Dyke's take on modern comedy; he misses the relaxed pace and timing that his writers and directors used to make his shows so successful. Something else, I still remember watching The Three Stooges when I was a kid. One day, the announcer read a letter from a parent about how her kids were imitating the actions of the actors. He explained that these were only stunts and warned that if he got just one more such letter, he would take his program off the air! Somehow I can't see that ship captain giving the same warning prior to Sponge Bob Squarepants.

    My point. Adults are the dipsy-doodle drivers. Adults are the trash dumpers at the recycling bins. Adults are the criminals. Adults are impatient. Kids today aren't just getting away with stuff, they are imitating their most valued teachers, their parents. Tired Teacher mentioned kids cussing out their teacher--hey, that's how their parents treat others including their own children. And rewarding these kids for acting like their parents is not the solution.
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. arbraum,
  2. futuremathsprof
Total: 294 (members: 3, guests: 275, robots: 16)
test