Guns (School Shooting)

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by JustMe, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 14, 2012

    Forget it. :)

    Clearly there are multiple issues here to discuss and I was personally curious about your thoughts on guns and what you own, but it seems people aren't interested right now and that's okay.
     
  2.  
  3. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,558
    Likes Received:
    2,648

    Dec 14, 2012

    I assume that she registered the guns in her name because her son wasn't old enough.

    I believe that we should have the right to own and use guns for protection.

    To me, this issue shouldn't be about gun control. It should be about the state and availability of mental health care in our nation.
     
  4. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    1

    Dec 14, 2012

    I hope the dialogue doesn't turn to another debate on gun control. Instead I want it to be on mental health issues. I have a close friend that gave up custody of her son to the state of Utah so that he could get mental health help. There was an article about her son in the Salt Lake Tribune. After more then 2 years she is regaining custody and bringing him home. I can't find the article or I would post it.
     
  5. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    1

    Dec 14, 2012

    I dont mind answering. I have my dads rifles. I don't hunt, but they meant a lot to him. I was about 9 or 10 when my dad taught me how to shoot. I grew up around guns.
     
  6. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,839
    Likes Received:
    1,326

    Dec 14, 2012

    I have a.38 Special I've had since I was 22 years old. My BFF's dad taught me the basics with it. I used to have a conceal & carry permit, but I let it expire. I live alone in a rural area.

    I never realized how hard it is to get mental health services until I started helping my ex-DH try to get help. He needs to see a psychiatrist, but he has to start with a clinical social worker. I'm afraid he will give up on treatment before he gets the help he needs. Even though lots of advances have been made in regard to mental illnesses, there are still major roadblocks. My former MIL refused to accept that ex had issues, even pulling him from public school after years of teachers suggesting services for him. Even though we are divorced, I am the one helping him get help now. It's amazingly complicated.
     
  7. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    5,280
    Likes Received:
    748

    Dec 14, 2012

    I think the main issue is helping the mentally ill as well.

    Even if this person didn't have a gun, he could have killed innocent children in a myriad of ways.
     
  8. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    12

    Dec 15, 2012

    :agreed:
    Availability of mental health care is the real issue.
    I have one gun right now My Cousin has it doing some smithing on it The last time I shot was with my son, he is a great shot.
     
  9. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    4

    Dec 15, 2012

    :thumb:
     
  10. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,411
    Likes Received:
    579

    Dec 15, 2012

    I don't have any guns. None of my close friends have guns. I just don't understand the point in owning them, I guess.
     
  11. sue35

    sue35 Habitué

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    Messages:
    897
    Likes Received:
    0

    Dec 15, 2012

    I think the only thing we can talk about now is more gun safety. That man should not have had access to all her guns. We don't know much of anything about the killer so it's hard to say that mental illness played a part. There are many people with all sorts of mental illnesses that do not kill 27 people. We just don't know enough details
     
  12. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    6,809
    Likes Received:
    190

    Dec 15, 2012

    Sue... can see your point...but the reality is that there are many ways to get guns without being "able" to which we see all the time. Sadly, it is people who don't respect guns that are the ones that do damage with them. I have grown up around hunters in our family and have shot guns on family property... I have such a respect for them. This is going to be a very hot topic. I know they are trying to pass new laws for having to take a special class to have the guns in "gun free zones"... which I see both sides of as well, but it does make you wonder if one teacher would have had that special permit if lives could've been saved...it's really going to be hindsite that people will be looking at....
     
  13. BettyRubble

    BettyRubble Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0

    Dec 15, 2012

    In some states it takes less time to buy a gun than to register to vote.
     
  14. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,815
    Likes Received:
    53

    Dec 15, 2012

    I own a 9mm...I bought it for my 19 year old son. He wants to be a police officer and we go to the range so he can practice. we have numerous rifles, shot guns, and one pistol in our home. my son was on a shooting sport team and my nine year old daughter wants to join.
     
  15. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    17,362
    Likes Received:
    46

    Dec 15, 2012

    We are a family of guns. I personally have a .380 and .22 pistol. My husband has an AR-15, 9mm glock, and another pistol. He carries his pistol on him whenever he is down south at all times. I carry mine only when we're going to the range. Ours are for protection in the house because hubs is gone, and for him it's about safety. The AR incidently he bought because he didn't think he'd be able to buy it very much longer.
     
  16. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,094
    Likes Received:
    0

    Dec 15, 2012

    I grew up around guns. My father owned guns and began teaching me how to shoot safely when I was very young. I got my first .22 rifle for Christmas at age 10, but of course, I was not allowed to even touch the gun unless dad was with me. He taught me to shoot with a rifle and pistol both.

    Several of my uncles are hunters and gun owners. They also actively trade guns. One of them has even written a number of books about firearms.

    One of my uncles gave me a .22 pistol when I graduated from college. I also own a .38 pistol my father gave me. Actually, I own all of his guns now, since he passed away, but most of them have not been stored properly and are in rough shape now.

    I've never taken my own sons to a shooting range because we just don't have a good place to shoot safely. His step-dad, though, has an isolated piece of property. He has taught my oldest son how to hunt with both a rifle and bow and bought a rifle for him for Christmas last year.

    Many people, myself included, enjoy shooting guns for recreation. I personally don't like to hunt, but I do enjoy shooting my pistols just for fun. As I said, though, I don't have any property where I can shoot safely, so I haven't down any recreational shooting for a number of years. I have considered taking the classes necessary to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, though.

    Guns are like anything else, they can be used for recreation, but the person must have respect for the gun and be taught how to handle and shoot it safely.

    Just as a comparison, the number of annual deaths from motor vehicle accidents is 4 times that of homicide deaths from firearms. Even if suicides are added to firearm deaths, the annual number is still less than deaths by motor vehicle. Also, the number of suicides by firearm area about 1.5 times that of firearm homicides, according to the most recent statistics.

    Here are a couple of sources listing the various causes of accidental/preventable deaths.

    http://www.theegglestongroup.com/writing/deathstats/index.php

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_preventable_causes_of_death
     
  17. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    5,621
    Likes Received:
    6

    Dec 15, 2012

    I have a glock 9mm. I used to carry it all the time. This is not about gun control. It's about the country's mental health system. There was just a case in Seattle where a young man killed his father. The parents had been fighting the system for years to get him the help he needed. Even the doctors and law enforcement admitted he needed to be committed, but there was nothing, by law, that they could do.
     
  18. Ranchwife

    Ranchwife Companion

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    0

    Dec 15, 2012

    I received a 20 gauge over under shot gun when I turned 12 and enjoyed bird hunting with my father when I was younger. When i was pregnant I bought my Browning .223 rifle so i could squirrel hunrt and coyote hunt. We have a large gun safe that is completely full and even contains guns my kids will use to deer hunt when they are old enough. Our gun safe is locked all the time, the clips from the guns are out of the magazines, and there are no rounds in the magazines. If anyone broke into our house, there is no way we could defend ourself because we would have to unlock the safe, find our gun of choice, locate the magazine, and load it. Our guns are just for hunting and target shooting. Having grown up around guns and being trained by family members to correctly handle guns, I know that it isn't the gun that kills, but the person behind the gun that ultimately decides to pull the trigger. Gun control and gun safety training is not going to stop some people from making the decision to pull the trigger on innocent people. If they want to kill people, a gun is just one of many methods.
     
  19. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 15, 2012

    I disagree that it has nothing to do with gun control.
     
  20. waterfall

    waterfall Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    6,017
    Likes Received:
    874

    Dec 15, 2012

    I am amazed at the people (not here, in general) who are saying this could have been prevented if a teacher had a conceal & carry. Do people really think it would be wise for a teacher to take a gun into a classroom under any circumstances?

    I am also wondering if there's ever been a case where an "innocent bystander" who had a gun was able to prevent or stop something like this. Generally you hear that even if people have them they will be too afraid to use them or use them incorrectly. I remember hearing one statistic that said people were more likely to injure themselves with the gun than actually get the other person, but it's been way to long to remember the source or if it was true. I believe I heard it in some sort of school class.
     
  21. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    6,809
    Likes Received:
    190

    Dec 15, 2012

    Waterfall... to carry in a gun free zone... you actually have to take additional gun classes for it. I don't know if it would've prevented it, but we don't know if it would've helped either. I get more upset that people are blaming someone having a gun... if you look at a lot of info it is usually someone that shouldn't have a gun (yes there can be something said for more background checks), a stolen gun, or off the black market. It is more scary that people that access them illegally than those that have them legally and take the proper care of them!!!
     
  22. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    1

    Dec 15, 2012

    I just heard that it took the shooter 3 minutes to kill 20 children and 6 adults.

    More is coming out about his family and his problems.
     
  23. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,958
    Likes Received:
    2,109

    Dec 15, 2012

  24. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 15, 2012

    Right now, it's easier to get a gun and go on a rampage than it is to get an appointment with a shrink.

    Until that changes, politics will solve nothing.
     
  25. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    6,809
    Likes Received:
    190

    Dec 15, 2012

    Thanks for posting cza... funny thing is. We all know that schools are gun free zones...but if someone is in that state of mind do the obey really any laws...
     
  26. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    57

    Dec 15, 2012

    That's not feasible in most of these cases. It would have made no difference for us at VT and don't even try to tell me otherwise. I was next door, I heard all those shots in a blink of an eye. He prepared the building, and decked himself out in protective gear.
     
  27. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    14,558
    Likes Received:
    2,648

    Dec 15, 2012

    The news today reports that the shooter attempted to purchase guns at a gun store earlier in the week. He was denied because he didn't have the appropriate permit or ID. I guess, to me, this is an example of how the gun control system works. Here is a guy who wasn't suitable for a gun purchase being denied the opportunity to purchase a gun.

    He got these guns from his mother. If you've got someone who is willing to circumvent the laws and make guns accessible to someone who shouldn't have access to them, there's no controlling that.
     
  28. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    4

    Dec 15, 2012

    No matter what anyone's opinion is on guns, a tragedy such as this makes us all think about how we can become a safer society. Weapons exist, and they do not kill people. The human holding the weapon-gun, knife,car, baseball bat,etc.-is the killer. Whether it is a slow or quick death does not mater at all to the family left behind.
    Honestly, do you really think that a person who wants to commit such a crime would really not be able to get a gun? Making it harder will only work on the people who own guns for their own protection. Killers will get them off the street.
     
  29. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    6,809
    Likes Received:
    190

    Dec 15, 2012

    Knitter... you are definately right in your post.
     
  30. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    57

    Dec 15, 2012

    It was way harder for me to get my motorcycle license in Virginia than to get a gun. This makes no sense.

    I don't have an extreme ban all the guns position, but I don't think restrictions are unreasonable. People should be required to prove knowledge of gun safety, for example.

    Cho bought at least one of his guns online.

    Most people do not need instant access to a firearm for their own protection. And honestly, if they are buying one in a whim for that purpose, the chance of their being able to use it effectively and safely is near nil.

    And almost nobody can successfully execute a perfect headshot of a heavily armed shooter under chaotic and instantaneous circumstances--special ops trained personnel couldn't do it 100%. Ask one of them.

    We don't know the facts yet in CT (the media is doing a lousy job of just rumormongering, it seems to me), but Cho could probably have been helped. He freaked people out, both in high school and college. Professors reported his disturbing writings. He was from a family that was pretty anti-mental health treatment. The counseling center at VT was abysmal and incompetent.

    He shouldn't have been able to buy guns online, and he should have been helped before it was too late.
     
  31. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 15, 2012

  32. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,858
    Likes Received:
    0

    Dec 15, 2012

    We actually had an instance here recently where the store employee and a customer where shot and killed by another customer who pulled his gun and tried to shoot the people robbing the store--he missed.

    I am not for no guns. I just don't understand why people need those automatic assault rifles that fire off 100's of rounds at a time. You can't convince me that's for self-defense-you'd shoot up your house. And if you use them for hunting, you aren't a very good hunter. With handguns at least there's a moment where they have to stop and reload.

    You can say it would happen anyway because they'd find another weapon, but I don't believe the same amount of damage would have been done. It amazes me that after the shooting in Colorado there was talk about limiting amounts of ammunition you could buy-that guy had 1,000's and people are against that. Why? What would a sane gun owner need that much automatic ammo for? I like Chris Rock's theory-every bullet should cost $1,000.
     
  33. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    12

    Dec 15, 2012

  34. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,958
    Likes Received:
    2,109

    Dec 15, 2012

    I don't find that article to be the exact opposite position, just a different position.
     
  35. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    12

    Dec 15, 2012

    My cousin who is a competitive shooter has as many as 3,000 rounds at home, which can be used in his guns and my gun. It is not the how much ammo or what gun, it is the person.
     
  36. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 15, 2012

    When did I ever say they had absolutely no mass murders?

    I'm just saying that without guns, killers are a hell of a lot less effective.
     
  37. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 15, 2012

    Guns being illegal VS eliminating the no-carry laws are opposite positions.
     
  38. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    6,809
    Likes Received:
    190

    Dec 15, 2012

    Sadly... if there's a threat of guns being taken away people do stock up... I mean I've only seen pieces flipping through channels of people who have stock piled ammo in case the world falls to pieces....

    It's definately what the person does with it. I remember my dad reloading shot gun shells!!!
     
  39. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    4

    Dec 15, 2012

    :yeahthat:
     
  40. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Dec 15, 2012

    Right...it is the person. So why are so many seemingly opposed to ensuring the wrong people don't legally have guns by enhancing requirements and so forth? It wouldn't be fail-proof, but that seems like a crappy reason to not make some changes. Also a crappy reason to avoid it is the statement that people who want to harm others will do it somehow. Right. By all means then keep guns as an easy option.

    I am not anti-gun, for the record.
     
  41. mollydoll

    mollydoll Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    57

    Dec 15, 2012

    Competitive shooting is not a great example. Even countries with super strict gun bans and gun laws have provisions for competitive shooting. The Netherlands, for example.
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. gr3teacher,
  2. SaraFirst,
  3. Caesar753,
  4. vickilyn,
  5. Backroads,
  6. Ima Teacher
Total: 504 (members: 9, guests: 471, robots: 24)
test