Free College

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by 3Sons, Jan 22, 2015.

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  1. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    My God guys someone has to flip burgers, someone has to pick up the garbage etc etc if no one did those things would you be the one to take your garbage to wherever, flip your own burger at McDonalds, get your own food at the restaurant, etc etc.....there are many places we frequent on a regular basis where those employees are not being paid a living wage - what happens when there is no one there to do those jobs?

    And about the teachers salary.....I have no words, no words.
     
  2. GTB4GT

    GTB4GT Cohort

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    Let me clarify ....I don't think I have more worth, value or importance than the guy working at mcDonald's. or the guy stocking shelves at WalMart. Or the President of the US. Or Tom Brady for that matter. I was, however, able to make the right decisions in my life and work hard enough to not have to worry about money. I worked hard in school and selected a field of study that was well paying (intentionally). And I think that opportunity is there for everyone else, although we certainly all don't start out on even footing in this regard.


    and i agree with you on the greed issue. And it is not just at the top. I believe the average guy or gal on the street isn't going to vote for anyone who would do the things required to fix these issues.we have spent way beyond our means and it's only gotten worse. this is at the national level as well as at the individual level. We, as a nation, won't give up our individual "entitlements".
     
  3. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    A living wage is not an "entitlement." It's simply making enough money doing your chosen career to support yourself.

    Back to the original topic: if you want people to educate themselves out of their current state, someone's going to have to pay for it. If they aren't even making enough money to pay for housing, food, and clothing, how do you expect them to pay for the education to improve their situation? Here's where two years of free community college would be useful!
     
  4. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    This is what really bothers me about low wages. Our government is subsidizing companies who under-pay their workers. Without government money to pay for health care, food stamps and housing, Walmart would need to pay their workers more.

    If community college were free, more people trapped in low-wage jobs could find a way out.
     
  5. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Sorry, but no. Just because they make more does not mean they should be punished and pay such a high TOTAL more. I'm not even talking percentage, I'm talking total amount. Taxes should be for things that are essential to our society, not extras.
     
  6. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    I agree. I have always felt that if all I had was a minimum wage job then it would be necessary to share expenses with someone else. Whether it be by living with family, roommates, or if you are married and have other household income. Hell, in this state, it can be quite difficult to live alone on a starting teachers salary.
     
  7. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    There's a difference between "if a person cannot afford to live in the style they want" and "if a person cannot afford to live." To work full time, or to work multiple jobs, and still to be unable to feed one's child without having to go beg at a food bank, is both soul-destroying and unnecessary.

    The In N Out hamburger chain, which started in Southern California and exists primarily in the Southwest, has paid better than minimum wage to start, with benefits even for part-timers, for at least four decades. The burgers are priced competitively and made fresh by people who tend to smile at customers as though they meant it; the menu's very simple, but the workers have little hesitation about playing with your food to your specifications, a level of creativity that tends to correlate fairly negatively with negativity. The workers are doing fine, and so is the company. In short, it's perfectly possible not to underpay workers and still make a decent profit.

    The whole of society pays the bill when businesses insist on underpaying their workers.
     
  8. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    Just got to say, very well stated.
     
  9. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    It is great the In an out does that. If society does not like what the other fast food places do there are 2 main things that canshould be done. Don't eat at the ones whose practices you don't like and don't get jobs there if you don't like what they pay. Very simple.
     
  10. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    but there was a time when that McDonalds worker, that retail worker, that garbage worker, that factory worker etc etc did earn enough to live. No one belittled them they were told they were good hard working Americans now they are looked down on as leeches who feel "entitled" to what people now call "government handouts".

    I am all for the free education deal, we either pay now or pay later.
     
  11. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    I do view the free college, even with whatever qualifications, as an investment that will very, very likely pay off.

    I don't care where you are on the political spectrum, it does a country no good to have more than a tiny fraction on government aid and we have to fix that some how.

    No, I don't think a burger flipper should be making anywhere close to what many other professions make according to the economy, but they ought to make enough to get by.
     
  12. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Of course they should but elitism is alive and well in this country,

    I have a teacher friend who is now 40 and taught for over ten years. She HAS to have a room mate to pay the bills and lives hand to mouth. SHE does not waste her money and with our excellent insurance has to be careful about going to the Dr. SHE is an EXCELLENT kindergarten teacher. It is a #*$ crime how little she is paid for the job she does. But I guess children are low priority to some people. And she could marry some guy with a good job or go get a better job............
     
  13. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    If there is a free college education program, students who have many absences or fail the class should have to repay the money. If the taxpayers are going to invest in someone's education, there should be passing grades to show for it.
     
  14. Peregrin5

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    I think that this is one step towards what should happen in this country.

    Eventually all education should be free, but we should start at reducing the RIDICULOUS tuition costs at Universities.

    Now whether or not the Republican congress or senate will allow us to do this, is another question entirely. Right now it's just an idea.
     
  15. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    :help:
    What? flipping burgers at McDonalds was never a livable wage. Minimum wage was not a livable wage 25 years ago.

    You are confusing unskilled labour with a minimum wage job, they are very very different things.

    The American dream was never built on flipping hamburgers.
     
  16. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    So you think someone working full time should earn more money per hour than a full time employee at a job like McDonalds?

    It is not classism, it is being logical. I have never known a time where just being employed meant one could buy their own house, a car, and support a family...some jobs were..what were they called...entry level.
     
  17. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    What? When was a fry cook at McDonalds able to make a livable wage, certainly not 30 years ago when I worked there. 30 years ago when I worked their, you were ABSOLUTELY looked down upon if you were a fry cook trying to make a living, it is much better today.
     
  18. adeeb

    adeeb Rookie

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    I feel as though the cost of a college education shouldn't necessarily be placed on the government. Yes, free college education would be a great benefit to many people, but it should be the colleges that make attending their institutions affordable since they're the ones making their tuition so ridiculously high. If you run this comparison with companies, it seems to be a valid consideration: if a company's product is not affordable, it is up to the company to somehow make it affordable. The government doesn't step in and somehow enable the public to afford the product. Why should colleges be an exception?

    In my opinion, colleges should consider a modular approach to their services. Most colleges offer services, such as career development and athletics facilities, that are discretely included in the price of tuition, even if the student doesn't use them. This may not work for all schools, but what if students just paid for what they will use? That way, students who may not be able to afford the full "college package" can just pay for their classes, thereby reducing the price of tuition.
     
  19. bros

    bros Phenom

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    You know sanitation workers get paid rather well, right?

    But I assume you are talking about custodial staff? Depending on where they work, they can slowly work their way up, start earning more money, get more certifications, maybe eventually get a bachelors and move into management.

    But most people who work low income jobs work them because there is no other option for them. There is no way for them to attend college, because they might be the sole income supporting their family through circumstances beyond their control. Or they could have been told their entire life that they are dumb and will never amount to anything - so they never go for that degree, because they think they will fail no matter what.

    A lot of it comes down to random chance - aka who your parents are and the dicey word 'privilege'.

    If the unskilled labor in the workforce had the opportunity to better themselves by being able to pursue a community college education for free - obviously with some caveats regarding grades and length of stay - you need to keep in mind that not everyone would go for an AA/AS. Some might attend for a certificate program, or apprentice in a trade, or they might get a AAA/AAS/AFA and end their higher education there. Of course, probably over 50% would proceed to four year schools, but then the quality of education will increase - the more money the schools have, hopefully the more they spend on better faculty, buildings, and other things to enrich the learning of the students.

    It isn't a punishment. It is contributing their fair share to society. They have many loopholes and tax laws that they can abuse because of the amount of money they have and how it is stored - people who aren't in the 1% don't have the luxury of surviving solely off of capital gains, without needing to touch other assets.

    Education is essential to modern society. Internet is essential to modern society. Having a roof over your head is something that should be provided to all (and in states where they have taken foreclosed homes and set the homeless up in them, had caseworkers help them find any assistance they need, and eventually jobs, the individuals have stayed off the streets and crime rates dropped massively). A cell phone is essential nowadays, given the demise of the payphone. Now, do not twist my words and interpret "cell phone" as "Smartphone" as I did not say that. The Lifeline program that so many decry isn't that fancy - the free plan is something like 100 minutes a month, 50 texts, and a free flip phone. So it's just enough to get calls from your child's school, or arrange interviews, or call in sick to work.

    Also, I assume you are aware that minimum raise stopped rising with inflation around 1973, right?

    If minimum wage had kept rising with inflation, like it had been for decades before, it'd be around $10 an hour.

    Teacher pay is definitely an issue in pretty much all areas of the country. But most people try to brush it off with naive statements that they formed when they were in school themselves.

    Pretty sure that is how the Pell Grant works - i'd assume they would implement similar rules, if not stricter ones, than the Pell Grant.

    And now entry level jobs require two years of unpaid internships in order to get.
     
  20. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Personally, I'm a fan of the 'flat tax', but did you know that the top 10 percent of income earners paid 68 percent of all federal income taxes in 2011 while earning 45 percent of all income? The bottom 50 percent paid 3 percent of income taxes but earned 12 percent of income.
    I'd say that was 'fair share'.


    In my area, baby sitters make more than $10 per hour. My son made ten per hour plus tips working in a pizza place in high school over 7 years ago. So there are places that do pay more than minimum wage...not sure that's a liveable wage however. And when you consider that when one is employed more than twenty hours per week, a business must now provide healthcare...this has resulted in workers being scheduled for LESS hours...my school district schedules paras like this...they used to be able to 'waive' benefits and work full time but now have to work twenty hours or less because the district won't pay benefits-a completely different conversation but there are repercussions to government's 'good intentions':rolleyes:
     
  21. GTB4GT

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    this is a very succinct explanation as to why we should keep the government from mandating wages. for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. And the people running the businesses are much, much smarter than the ones running the government.
     
  22. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Not sure what the good intention here might be, but back to the 'free' college idea... the president is moving toward taxing 529 college savings accounts. The average amount saved in these account ts is $20 K... Punishing those who plan ahead,squirreling away money to send THEIR OWN kids to college. :(
     
  23. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    No they aren't. They do happen to know a lot more about running a business than most in government, though.

    The ones running businesses also have virtually no interest in whether their are being paid fairly. Or, for that matter in anything except making money. You're line of argument is the same one that would say we don't need food safety standards because the market would theoretically drive those selling unsafe food out of business. Free-reign capitalism is not an economic system that creates a healthy overall society.
     
  24. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    That has been the common theme for a long time now. That is why so many have given up trying to do right. What is the point. The government will swoop in and provide. This kind of ties into the poverty discussion on the thread about US Schools being the Best. At one point it was an embarrassment to have the government step in to help. Now it is a strategy and those that do right get the short end of the stick every time to pay for the new way of living.
     
  25. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    It's also a way to make more dependent on the government....and as thankful recipients of all the 'freebies' those voters will continue to vote for those who 'provide' :|
     
  26. bros

    bros Phenom

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    The flat tax is pretty cool.

    Districts & Businesses scheduling people for less hours so they don't have to provide them with hours is just a bit disgusting.

    No, no they aren't. They know how to run a business. As everyone knows, a government does not run anywhere near the same as a business, as they both have completely different goals and types of financing - like it is perfectly normal and okay for a government to run on a deficit, whereas in the business world, it would result in going out of business rather quickly.

    Never met anyone who didn't come from wealth that actually *had* money saved for college by their parents.

    No, it is a way for the government to bring this country in line with the rest of the first world. We are practically a third world country at this rate - schools that have dismal scores versus western Europe, a healthcare system that people have to pay money in order to live, post-secondary education that none can afford without saddling themselves with decades of debt. We are not the best nation in the world and we haven't been for many decades. We're a nation whose progress has been stunted by a horrible generation of people who went "Eff you, got mine"
     
  27. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    I don't get why people think it is perfectly okay for the government to run on a deficit. Have a budget, know how much can be spent, when it runs out, don't spend any more. Pretty simple to me. Prioritize the things that are necessary and if there is nothing left afterwards then the luxuries don't get spent on.
     
  28. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Funny, the greatest times in this country was when the government wasn't giving handouts and interfering in everything and people had to rely on themselves and support they got from their families, friends, and community, not the government. Some would argue it was the government interference that caused many of the problems you cite.
     
  29. vateacher757

    vateacher757 Cohort

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    And when was this?

    I am pretty sure you and others are picking and choosing what you define as a handout.
     
  30. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Hmmm...I don't come from 'wealth', my parents saved.
    DH and I bought monthly savings bonds for our kids from the day each was born to help pay for college.
    Many of my friends in college and friends of my kids had some combination of savings, scholarships, work-study and loans to help pay for their college. I'm from the thought that when one works for something they actually appreciate it more.:2cents:

    And third world country? Seriously? I'm so sure that's why so many immigrants flock to the US EVERY DAY...because we're 'practically a third world country' :dizzy:

    And I'm not quite sure who the 'horrible generation' is? :dizzy:
     
  31. bros

    bros Phenom

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    Because that is how governments have and always will run - on a deficit. Deficit spending helps the economy.

    The generation that ruined America - the baby boomers.

    Must be nice to have enough income to throw around to be able to buy a savings bond every month for your child. My parents were lucky if they could buy one every five years.

    So you think that if people are given free community college, they won't work at all? They still need to support their families, so they'll work at the same time, but they won't need to worry about the cost of tuition - only the comparatively minor expense of textbooks.
     
  32. Pashtun

    Pashtun Fanatic

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    For most people this is more a matter of priorities than actual finances.

    Every single person I know has the ability to put aside some money, it is very simply not their priority.
     
  33. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    My husband was in the military when my kids were born. We hardly were 'throwing money around' :mellow: $50 a month deducted from DH's pay resulted in a nice pile of $100 bonds that helped with some college expenses. I'm not sure how saving and investing in your children's future is 'throwing money around".:confused:

    And as far as those horrible baby boomers? There's 75 million of us who helped grow the economy through our hard work and investment. :wow:

    :thumb:
     
  34. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    I understand the arguments on each side of the issue, but I feel the investment benefit in college educating an entire generation GREATLY outweighs the cost in taxes.

    People are unhappy about taxes of any kind. But we need to sacrifice as a country to really get somewhere. More enlightenment and education is always better than less. That is one of my core principles and one reason that I became an educator.

    I own a 529 plan and I'd gladly accept tax if it meant that our younger generations didn't get stuck with only a HS education, and had a chance to pull themselves out of the cycle of poverty with their education, or even just to have more enlightened ideas.

    As others have said, it wouldn't be a free handout as those who are receiving the free admission would be required to maintain a minimum GPA. If this goes through our next generation could do a lot for our future. If it doesn't I fear we may stagnate as a country and fall behind other countries such as European ones that provide free education (Norway, Germany, etc.). Without the few tech giants, all we are currently is a consumer country. We no longer provide anything of great value, and the ideas will run dry once our schools stop producing educated thinkers and other countries outpace us with their thinkers.

    This is just my :2cents:.
     
  35. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    The baby boomers ruined America? When was this decided?
     
  36. teacherintexas

    teacherintexas Maven

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    And it is possible to get a college education without loans, grants, OR help from parents. I am proof of this.

    I did have to bust my butt to pull it off.
     
  37. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Looks like 2:10 this afternoon.
     
  38. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    :yeahthat::yeahthat: I agree. My disgust and hatred for this country runs deeper than what I would ever bother to share.

    But, I do think President Obama is doing great with what he has inherited; and the free college and making childcare affordable etc are good plans. However, the beginning of the end started a while ago, and after he's gone, the end will continue for this country...(poverty, racism, the wealth gap between whites and non whites has skyrocketed, predatory lending to minorities/the mortgage crisis, bank discrimination, ugh, too much to name)
     
  39. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    To all of those who have or hate "our country" so much...what country do you aspire to be?
     
  40. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    A country that respects the lives of all of its citizens, not just the white ones.
     
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