Backroads
Aficionado
Where are these charter schools that are allowed to deny/kick out students?
Hell, we're now talking of arranging a behavior unit at our charter school to better deal with some of our mental/emotional issues of our population.
Education is a Right that is easily compromised by teacher pay
- Thread starter AlwaysAttend
- Start date
Where are these charter schools that are allowed to deny/kick out students?
Hell, we're now talking of arranging a behavior unit at our charter school to better deal with some of our mental/emotional issues of our population.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
What are your thoughts on private special ed schools in MA? There's one that takes 95% of kids from NYC and still does electro shock therapy on kids. They charge 250,000 per student. These are facts.
Other facts: Charter schools are open to students with pricey IEP's and all schools kick out students. That's why large districts have alternative schools. If more public schools cared to do the paperwork to remove violent students, there other students could actually learn. Charters don't kick kids out for doing poorly on tests.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
So only your opinions are valid without facts to back them up?
Tyler B.
Groupie
Since you can't point to any innovative teaching strategy that the charter movement has produced, I don't blame you for wanting to change the subject.
I utterly respect the hard work charter school teachers do. What I object to is the practice of pulling money out of struggling public schools to fund charters. This is not the way to improve education.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Venture Academy. The 200 students attending Venture Academy in Minneapolis, MN are divided into three communities that move between stations with different learning experiences – including interdisciplinary project-based learning, digital content, independent work, and tutorials (all in the course of one day). Teachers also participate in peer observations and the use of technology at the school is driven by its ability to support student learning.
Ingenuity Prep. The model at Ingenuity Prep in Washington, D.C. gives students 33 percent more learning time than students who attend schools with a traditional calendar. The school has also developed an innovative “career ladder” for teachers at the master, lead, associate, and resident levels to learn from one another and encourage professional development.
Hebrew Language Academy 2 will follow on the success of two Hebrew-themed public schools where language development looks different than you’d expect. Native English-speaking students and those whose first language is something other than English learn Hebrew through immersive instruction. The schools are socioeconomically, racially and linguistically diverse. And they defy a common charter myth, serving high-need students, and higher percentages of special-ed kids than their districts.
Is that ok for starters?
Ima Teacher
Virtuoso
This is the first year charter schools have been permitted in Kentucky. I don't know of a single one anywhere near me. I can't comment on their effectiveness.
Kentucky, however, has worked really hard to revamp the public school system over the last nearly 30 years. Has it all worked? Nope. Are we headed in the right direction by making continual improvements? Yes. Are charter schools the answer? I seriously doubt it. You know why? It is because there is no single magic bullet to fix anything in education. Never has been. Never will be.
Kentucky, however, has worked really hard to revamp the public school system over the last nearly 30 years. Has it all worked? Nope. Are we headed in the right direction by making continual improvements? Yes. Are charter schools the answer? I seriously doubt it. You know why? It is because there is no single magic bullet to fix anything in education. Never has been. Never will be.
Tyler B.
Groupie
[QUOTE="AlwaysAttend, post: 2042660, member: 74017" Charters don't kick kids out for doing poorly on tests.[/QUOTE]
Actually, many charters do kick out students who might bring down their scores. It's one of their tricks to "prove" they outperform public schools. Public schools must take all students. Putting a student in an alternative school does not remove that child's test scores from the public school's record.
Actually, many charters do kick out students who might bring down their scores. It's one of their tricks to "prove" they outperform public schools. Public schools must take all students. Putting a student in an alternative school does not remove that child's test scores from the public school's record.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Actually, many charters do kick out students who might bring down their scores. It's one of their tricks to "prove" they outperform public schools. Public schools must take all students. Putting a student in an alternative school does not remove that child's test scores from the public school's record.[/QUOTE]
Are you going to comment on the information you asked for?
Each school produces unique testing data. We do not lump entire districts together.
If someone was removed due to test scores they would receive a significant sum of money in the lawsuit they filed after.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Actually, many charters do kick out students who might bring down their scores. It's one of their tricks to "prove" they outperform public schools. Public schools must take all students. Putting a student in an alternative school does not remove that child's test scores from the public school's record.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention your source is rediculous.
I don't say that because of it's political leanings I say that because it's an amateurish blog.
Daily Kos (/?ko?s/ kohs) is a group blog and internet forum focused on liberal American politics. Additionally, the site features a participatory political encyclopedia ("DKosopedia"), glossaries, and other content. It is sometimes considered an example of "netroots" activism.
Ima Teacher
Virtuoso
Just so you know, my traditional public school uses a peer observation model, and we also stress the use of technology to enhance student learning. All of our schools are equipped with Smartboards, audio systems, and WiFi. (I had a Smart-equipped classroom and mobile lab 10 years ago.). We have computer labs, and we are moving to a 1:1 district starting this year by certifying students in the pilot groups to use their devices this year. Approximately half of all staff members in each school were Google Educator trained last summer. I did the training on my own, and I'm the first person in the building with Level 1 Google Certification. I'll be doing Level 2 next month.
We use teacher leadership teams at the building and district levels to provide opportunities to use our own people as leaders within the buildings. We provide professional learning through a PLC model. The majority of our PD comes from our own people.
No, we are not a district with a variety of socioeconomic levels, languages, or races. That's not because we leave those groups out. It is because we don't have them. We are a rural, high poverty school. Our students are 99.98% white and 70% free lunch. Our community has no industry. We have a high percentage of students with disabilities or other factors that make them at risk for failure. We also have some amazingly great success stories.
Tyler B.
Groupie
Here's a review of the school from the standpoint of staff: "This 'school' is truly a prison for teachers and students. Educators are deprofessionalized almost entirely in this environment. Each classroom must be set up identically. The schedule is predetermined. There is no room for creative autonomy, or maneuvering what you feel is best for your students. Everything is prescribed for you, and you are expected to comply. Administration is largely white, and students are 99% black. Children are conned into walking on lines, forced to fold their hands while seated as young as 4 years old, and criminalized if they cannot keep up with the developmentally inappropriate practices. There are 'behavior rooms' at the end of the hallway where students are shunned for having tantrums or when not in full compliance of the white authority. There is little to no time for water or bathroom breaks for anyone. Students are always in 'trouble'. As are teachers. Let your moral compass shine. Pass this one up."
I also find it amusing that someone who quotes freerepublic.com complains that my sources are biased.
Charters have not discovered any silver bullet, but they have taken much needed resources from public schools and squandered it.
Backroads
Aficionado
So my charter school was bad for improving reading ability?
Tyler B.
Groupie
NO! Your charter is not bad at all. I never said that. I said it's wrong to take money from public schools to run charters. I'm completely fine with charters and private schools, just not publicly funded.
svassillion
Companion
Private special ed schools? I thought we were talking about charters?
And maybe charters in NJ are different from ours, but I know charters here that are guilty of the things you're saying they can't do. Not because my union says so, but because I see these students get sent back to our district after a year. I also nannied before becoming a teacher to a boy who went to a charter and saw it first hand. They won't say test scores are the reason they're not invited back, but they will recite every infraction ever made by the student to say the family is not following the rules of conduct. And these aren't rules about behavior, but things like not wearing their belt to school one day as prescribed in the dress code (in kindergarten) or being tardy two days in a month. They pile them all up and use it as evidence that the family is not following school policy so is no longer invited to attend. That's what I see from the charters around me and I am in no way saying they are like that everywhere. But I feel like you may be assuming all charters are as unbiased as the ones you are familiar with.
Backroads
Aficionado
But a private charter is an oxymoron..
Perhaps they run differently in my area, but charter schools here are public. They are given state money. They take anyone and everyone by law, no different than a regular public school. We receive Title 1 funds based on our impoverished community. The only difference is we answer to the state and not a district.
svassillion
Companion
That sounds amazing especially considering the high number of economically disadvantaged students you have. Kudos!
This is one reason I absolutely love my district: there are numerous "choice schools" that provide different (not better, not worse) opportunities and types of schooling within the same K-12 district / "public school" realm, and students are chosen randomly from the applicants.
futuremathsprof
Phenom
Ditto. Even though I live in California, I am happy with my salary. A little about myself: I'm 25, work at a private high school, am a fourth-year teacher, and currently make $55,000. When I clear my preliminary credential I will get a $4,000-$5,000 raise. Not to mention, I get generous benefits through my employer, which I recognize that not all public school teachers get. Also, because of the rising minimum wage in California -- which will reach $15/hour in 2022 -- I can continually negotiate a higher salary with each passing year!
Look up California Labor Code 515.8, which deals with teacher overtime compensation. Basically, it says in order for a teacher to be exempt from overtime, they must make no less than twice the state minimum wage. Currently, this is $10.50/yr. Next year, it will be $11/hr and will increase by $1/hr until the year 2022, as aforementioned. That means the least amount a private school teacher can make is $52,000 (2*15*40*52*10/12) per year to be exempt from overtime pay. I already calculated in a spreadsheet the percent increase as a result of the minimum wage increase and I will ask for said increase each year.
Man I love California!
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AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
I'm aware there are fantastic public schools and mediocre charter schools. Is that really the point you are making...
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
You do know there are entire studies built around having a prescribed classroom set up so as not serve as a distraction for students correct?
There is also significant data to support the success their model has with students. This data is generated by tests administered and deemed developmentally appropriate by the state in which they operate.
There's a reason why parents are banging on the door to get them in. You seem to equate them with the schools set up for Native American children to steal their culture from them. Is that what you believe?
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
So poor people are only entitled to attend underperforming schools?
What if the elderly felt it was wrong for their taxes to support schools since they don't send children to them?
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Massachusetts has a better education system than NJ. Do you think the education department run by career educators would allow them to flagrantly break rules? Maybe they are getting bribed...
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
All charter schools everywhere are public schools.
A follow up on my previous post...
Though the selection is random, the question then becomes about what part of the population is actively seeking those "different" opportunities? In this case, the quality is likely almost the exact same (just different style of learning, perhaps), but in the case of charter schools: even if it was a 100% random selection, would those in a lower socioeconomic status, or those with greater IEPs apply at the same rate as others, or would a lack of thinking about it / access, lead them not to?
Though the selection is random, the question then becomes about what part of the population is actively seeking those "different" opportunities? In this case, the quality is likely almost the exact same (just different style of learning, perhaps), but in the case of charter schools: even if it was a 100% random selection, would those in a lower socioeconomic status, or those with greater IEPs apply at the same rate as others, or would a lack of thinking about it / access, lead them not to?
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
In bad school communites, charter schools are not a secret.
Why don't we enter everyone in the district in the lottery and you need to request to be opted out. Would you be in favor of that?
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Just to be clear. I spent 3 months basically volunteering in a charter school. I have no connection beyond that and wanting every child to have access to a great education. What they do with it is on them.
Backroads
Aficionado
In my area, minorities, low SES, and IEPs/504s actually apply in greater numbers. We have a population of rich kids and middle-lass, but we're a Title 1 school.
As I looked into the matter, I learned this isn't uncommon at charter schools. In fact, in many areas charter schools are seen as having a majority-is-minority diversity problem. My unresearched guess is those needing particular help may hope the charter school would be different enough to work for them. (We're running programs, for example, that really do reach into poverty solutions to work with our population and we are looking into getting a behavior unit program to better reach those with severe emotional problems).
Backroads
Aficionado
And hence it's ridiculous to deny them public monies.
I personally have seen little general difference between charter schools and public schools other than a few different focuses, but perhaps that means something is going right.
Always__Learning
Comrade
AlwaysAttend, In trying to understand your relationship to charters, why did you choose to get your admin experience at a charter as opposed to within the public system?
Always__Learning
Comrade
Backroads, Isn't one major difference that teachers in charters are paid/treated differently? When considering the topic of this thread, do charters positively impact the working conditions/ pay of the teaching profession?
Backroads
Aficionado
I personally see no difference. We are required to follow state licensing and teaching standards and our pay is competitive with the local district. If anything, I am treated better.
Always__Learning
Comrade
I understand that you are expected to follow the same standards.
I'm more interested in working conditions. What I've read here and in other places about charters suggests that as a whole teachers in charters are more likely to be non-unionized and are more likely to be required to work more hours (which means if they are being paid the same as their public school colleagues per year that they are being paid less per hour) and/or are paid less.
To me those things are not good for education. Education is better when teachers are treated well. To me that includes the right to unionize and good pay for reasonable hours.
Do you feel that my impression of charters is inaccurate?
I'm more interested in working conditions. What I've read here and in other places about charters suggests that as a whole teachers in charters are more likely to be non-unionized and are more likely to be required to work more hours (which means if they are being paid the same as their public school colleagues per year that they are being paid less per hour) and/or are paid less.
To me those things are not good for education. Education is better when teachers are treated well. To me that includes the right to unionize and good pay for reasonable hours.
Do you feel that my impression of charters is inaccurate?
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Because as part of my admin grad program we were responsible for securing our placement. It was a summer internship and I was leaving one school and going to another for a better gig but obviously I couldn't intern at the old one and didn't feel comfortable asking at the new one. I decided a Charter would be easier to get a placement at because I wouldn't need to be BOE approved in the same manner (forms in by certain date plus summer BOE meetings often get canceled).
I emailed every Charter School in 3 large urban districts and set up a meeting with the first school that responded. I got a great vibe when I went in and it was a truly rewarding internship with mentors who still guide me whenever I ask for advice. I couldn't have gotten a better placement in any other school (public, private, or charter). Maybe this will help explain my interest and passion some. Probably not enough for some but it's the reason lol.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Depends on the school. Many offer bonuses.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
Charters can have unions. It's always up to the staff themselves to Unionize. As you've seen on these boards, many public school teachers aren't unionized.
TrademarkTer
Groupie
But I'm not sure these bonuses actually positively impact teachers. I'm sure the bonuses are linked to test scores, and without getting into the test score debate, I don't know that an emphasis on test scores is good for teachers or students.
AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
If you think back to the point of the posting it was pay in relation to getting qualified candidates for positions. The charter where I interned and Newark Public Schools were both starting at just over $50,000. Both have an abundance of candidates for every job. Regardless of extra responsibilities and hours. In other places in the country, the starting pay doesn't come close.
If you examine admin salaries in small districts and large districts you will often note that the small district admins need to do a lot more work than the larger districts admin. Is that good for admin, teachers, and students? Should we raise their pay higher than that of larger district admin staff? Where should that money come from? I suppose we could cut the art teacher or maybe school sports. I think that would have a negative impact on teachers and students though.
TrademarkTer
Groupie
I don't really follow how this relates to my comment at all. Also, how do you figure admins in small district have more work to do? It may be true in some respects, but it seems counterintuitive.
Ima Teacher
Virtuoso
You mentioned that salaries, unions, and charter & private schools were all part of the education puzzle. Then added that it should not only be rich students who get school choice. I was pointing out that charters are not an option here. I assumed you didn't know, although you seem to want us to think you know everything.
My mistake.AlwaysAttend
Fanatic
You are saying that by asking charter school employees to do more for the same money it does nothing to improve the pay.
The purpose of the post wasn't to raise pay in one district compared to another. More in whole states.
With my state, there are many one school school districts where there might be one or two admin covering everything. There are also a lot of 2 building districts with 3 admin. For one building you could probably assume 75 observations which require writeups, all of the reports needed for the state, hib coordination, participation in county and state meetings, day to day operation of the school, etc.
A principal in a larger district might only be responsible for his building and nothing else. Usually they also have 1 vp or more, supervisors etc.
I'm equating the added workload of a small district admin vs. large district admin to the difference between charter teacher and public teacher. I thought it was abundantly clear, but if it wasn't, hopefully it is now.