Do you teach your students the right to refuse the Pledge of Allegiance?

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by TheGr8Catsby, Jul 6, 2014.

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  1. SF_Giants66

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    So the answer is that it is hypocrisy basically. They want kids to say it before they know the history and meaning, but they don't want them to know they can opt not to say it until they have been indoctrinated into it. Thanks for the answer. I get it now.
     
  2. SF_Giants66

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    The point is the reasoning is not sound. It is okay to have children say the pledge before they understand what it is for, but until they learn the history and meaning of it, they shouldn't be told it is optional. That's basically what people have been saying here all along. This is exactly how religious indoctrination works too. Milk before meat is what I was told in my church.
     
  3. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Not what I said, which, as usual you twisted to be YOUR answer. I am beginning to truly believe you are pretty sick and as twisted as your answers. By the way, remember when you didn't want to read between the lines? You just created a work of fiction by inserting your assumptions from between the lines. So I guess the prior comment was a lie.
     
  4. SF_Giants66

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    I'm not reading between anything, you clearly stated you'd want your kids to learn the history before being given the option to refuse it. So you specifically stated you are okay with your kids saying it without knowing why they are doing it.
     
  5. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Done and out. Go harass a different group, because you are never going to be a teacher, IMHO.
     
  6. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    and once people run out of answers and won't admit they are wrong, they take off..... Gosh, maybe I should be a lawyer instead.
     
  7. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    You are an irritation young man. Your obtuse replies just indicate how insensitive you are to people. Good luck with that.
     
  8. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    Nobody needs to worry about me or anyone else I'm involved with. In the next 2-3 years I'm likely going to tie my last noose. I'm just waiting for a miracle to happen before that though.
     
  9. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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  10. kinderkids

    kinderkids Virtuoso

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    My uncle died defending your right to feel that way. In Guam, during WW2.
     
  11. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    No offense, but I'm starting to think something is wrong with you ... seriously. Based on this thread alone, I'm concerned for your mental state.

    Obviously, you have some deep rooted issues with religion, abuse, conservatives, Baptists, authority ... peanut butter, butterflies, toilet paper and God knows what else.

    Whoever hires you to teach - the joke is on them.
     
  12. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    There is something wrong with everyone. That's not a practical reasoning.
     
  13. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    SF, the trend in your posts indicates increasingly that you're much more interested in finding ways to discount others' views as being ideologically incorrect than you are in investigating the practical aspects of this issue for the teacher on the ground.

    Nevertheless, let me spell it out for you. Here are the chief PRAGMATIC arguments against explicitly teaching kids on day one not to salute the flag (and in what follows I'll assume a high-school civics teacher):

    1. That lesson, even in a civics class, almost certainly isn't in the pacing guide at that point - and the teacher's job is to cover the curriculum.

    2. The first days of class are about establishing the classroom culture, and kids know it. Explicitly teaching from day one that the flag needn't be saluted conveys to those of your students whose family politics tend redder than yours that their opinions about the flag and the pledge aren't valued in your classroom, and from there you may find it very difficult to keep them from concluding that they themselves are less valued in your classroom. To say that this will have a negative impact on learning in your classroom for the rest of the year is an understatement.

    3. At least one student-who-tends-red who hears your announcement on day one will go home that night and tell a parent or guardian; with some groups of students you'll get lucky and that will be that, but there WILL come a time when an outraged parent will storm the principal's office and/or mount a social media campaign, all dedicated to relieving you of your job. If you're untenured when this breaks loose, you're toast; if you're tenured, it's possible that you won't lose your job (maybe), but don't count on support from your fellow teachers or the office staff, because the ensuing ruckus will irretrievably complicate their jobs, too.

    And if the parent and the inevitable parent posse go straight to the school board, depend on it that you're toast. You may teach the students, but you're employed by the board or the county or the state - that is, the public; the board can't hire, fire or discipline parents, but it can certainly make an example of you in order to get angry parents off its back.
     
  14. SF_Giants66

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    So you're saying I can't make any indirect statement about how IF a student chooses not to participate, that there won't be any harassment tolerated towards that student, just because someone might interpret that as saying they don't have to participate, and some angry, abusive republican parent might give the school board hell? Or are you not saying that at all and saying something else?

    Saying "If someone wishes not to participate" is not saying they should or shouldn't. It is spelling out the procedures for what to do if they choose not to. I would actually be interested in how a principal can have the guts to approach me about something like that. What are they honestly going to say, "you should have not said that because we want the kids to be under the impression that they have to say it and we don't want them to know the truth." ?
     
  15. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    "Indirect statement"? Actually, a truly indirect or inexplicit approach would work, especially from middle school onward: without being blatant about it, just let some students see you during the salute either standing at attention without participating or sitting quietly, and in either case modeling respect for everyone else's choice. If a student then asks if she too may not salute, you smile, say "Participation is optional," and move on to the rest of what day 1 holds. The issue can be revisited later, especially if it's on the syllabus later in the term.

    As for the principal, if she gets phone calls from parents she's going to want to know what you actually said; depending on what she's heard and what you said, she may well ask you to think carefully about how you frame what you say to students in future; she may beg you please not to make her life more difficult by providing fodder for parent complaint... but she's fairly unlikely either to say or to believe the inflammatory statement you've put in her mouth about kids and truth.

    Please note that what I've said here is entirely consistent with what I've said in earlier posts.
     
  16. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    Okay, I'm sorry. I have a very hot tempered argumentative personality, and when someone fails to apply logic, I pretty much lose all respect and consideration for that person's feelings. That is just how I am. That doesn't mean I will directly insult them or call them names, but generally I won't care if their feelings get hurt over what I say.

    Personally, others can rip me apart for saying this, but I do feel it is my duty to allow students to realize some things that their parents and other influences have been withholding from them. That doesn't mean I'm going to tell them my real feelings about how the pledge is completely meaningless and screams of fascism, because that is my opinion. However, will I at least in some way give an implication that refusing to say the pledge is 100% within their constitutional rights? Absolutely. The only thing I've learned from people here that I'm willing to make changes to my approach on is that there are less threatening and controversial ways to get your message across. I will find a way to say it that doesn't give them the impression that I'm telling any of them not to say the pledge. However, they will know that they can opt not to say it without persecution.
     
  17. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Your argumentativeness is abundantly clear in this thread. You're also very easily riled and not very self-aware about your use of language.

    I recommended that you show rather than tell students about not participating in the salute because, judging from this thread, you're either unwilling or unable to string together more than six words on a charged topic without revealing both your own politics and your contempt for those whose positions diverge from yours. If you have a snowball's chance in Hades of making a career in the classroom, you HAVE to learn at least to fake subtlety.
     
  18. kpa1b2

    kpa1b2 Aficionado

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    At least you admit that you have a very hot tempered argumentative personality.

    When my child is not being logical, which is developmentally appropriate, even for a high schooler, you will lose respect for him and won't consider his feelings. You may not directly insult my child or call him names but you won't respect his opinions and thoughts. When this happens, and it will happen, I will be on the phone to the principal and the Director of Student Services standing up for my National Honor Society child.

    You are not the teacher I want for my child and therefore, not for his friends.
     
  19. SF_Giants66

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    Actually, I don't recall getting into an argument with a child the way I have with an adults in many years. My patience and tolerance level is high for kids, but not for adults. That's mainly because I see other adults as competitors and certain illogical opinions I find very abusive for parents who are raising kids with that mentality. That's why many of my friends are recovering from religious trauma. Many of them were taught having sexual feelings were very immoral and would make them distant from god. Others were taught they needed to get married and have kids or they were a disgrace to their church, so now many gay people even have kids who have divorced or separated parents and went through years of trauma because of that. If people can think I can stand idly by and let them do that to their children, they have another thing coming to them. I won't put up with the kind of religious parenting people do where their kids end up hating themselves and thinking they aren't good enough if they are different, which is pretty much what nearly every organized religion indoctrinated children with. That's why I'm argumentative towards these kinds of issues.
     
  20. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    In a PERFECT world, children wouldn't be asked to recite the pledge until they truly understand it. They would not be asked to recite it until they could make an informed decision about it.

    In the REAL world, there are societal ramifications to not saying the pledge that children just aren't going to understand, and a teacher shouldn't expose them to information they aren't prepare to process.

    I'm not going to tell my third graders they have the right to opt out of the pledge for the same reason I'm not going to teach them about safe sex. Not the time, not the place. If their parents want to teach them about either topic, that's their business. Similarly, if my daughter finds out through her teacher at 3rd grade, I'd be annoyed at the teacher... unless my daughter had specifically asked the teacher a direct question and gotten a direct answer. If my daughter seeks out the information online, or comes to me for a direct answer, I'd tell her so that we could have an actual, 1-on-1 conversation about it.
     
  21. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    You remind me of a fire and brimstone preacher I knew once. You could start your own church with the indoctrination that you want to give people.
     
  22. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Also, this should go without saying, but I would strongly advise you not to ever breath so much as a word of your political or religious opinions in your future classroom, because... well... if your posts here are any indication, you'd be quickly identified as public enemy number one if you let literally any of your religious or political views come out in your classroom.

    Stick to math. Preferably higher level math with students who you will be reasonably sure won't struggle.
     
  23. SF_Giants66

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    Well, my beliefs are about equal rights, reasoning, and taking issue with what doesn't make sense. It was just admitted that the world is not ideal with the pledge, so instead of striving to make the world more ideal, I'm apparently supposed to just become one with a stamped number and play the system. I'm not the mail room supervisor from "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying". I don't play it the company way.
     
  24. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    Then you won't be part of the company long. If you're okay with that, then I'm okay with that.
     
  25. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    So if I see someone bullying a gay student because of their religion, I can't tell them that he has no right to treat him less equal because of his sexual orientation?
     
  26. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    No, you stop the bullying, let him know his actions are wrong, and refer to an administrator. Stopping bullying isn't a political stance.
     
  27. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    Saying that gay people have just as much right to marry as straight people shouldn't be a political stance either. It is a statement of human rights. Just as if I were to say as a teacher that there is nothing wrong with a white person dating a black person.
     
  28. Sugar

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    I find it interesting that I responded pages ago that I directly tell students what to do if the flag code and meaning (which I present in a PowerPoint during orientation week) doesn't align with their feelings for whatever reason (which is usually because they are a JW), yet you choose to ignore that and insist that every single member here is forcing the pledge. You clearly just prefer to be an obnoxious, argumentative jerk.

    If you manage to secure a teaching position, then...then I just quit the world.
     
  29. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    Is that a promise?
     
  30. vickilyn

    vickilyn Multitudinous

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    Racking up an extremely high number of posts is the name of the game - we have all been played. Every answer and post simply results in the bully in the room to change the question somewhat from the original question so that the answer doesn't fit, which he thinks makes him king of the world. This is one seriously sick individual who is on his way to self destructing - maybe. I don't know his agenda, or why a math teacher is even teaching a civics lesson, which causes me to SERIOUSLY doubt this is a potential teacher at all - which is a relief. I am convinced that we can't believe a thing he has said about himself, his agenda, and his future plans, something that brings me comfort. Perhaps we have been posting to a group who is having a huge laugh, maybe not. But the poster did make it clear what his true agenda is.

    I am not thin skinned, but I would say SF_Giants66 has been exemplary in showing the world by his actions, precisely how a bully acts, and he has provided excellent examples of harassment. If I could, I would file charges against him to the HIB committee - just wish we had one. That would provide an excellent example of how his behavior would be dealt with in the real world, appropriate, since he seems to want more education about working in education. Of course, HIB charges can be filed in any job or workplace, which may explain why this poster potentially has no job, but who knows? Since I believe we are being punked and taunted, this poster's supposed background can't be believed or presumed to be true.

    Why are you on these message boards?

     
  31. Sugar

    Sugar Rookie

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    Oooh, buuuuurn! :rolleyes:

    No, it's not a promise. It's an expression.
     
  32. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    Exactly. This guy's a troll with too much time on his hands. Perhaps, OP, if you spent half the time studying education/children as you do making up crap just to start drama, you MIGHT have turned out to be a semi-decent teacher some day. That ship has sailed. If I ever found out you were my kid's teacher, I'd switch schools if need be to avoid it.
     
  33. SF_Giants66

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    What's really funny about all these threads is that if it is truly a small world and I end up as one of your children's teachers, they're probably going to be talking about how I'm one of their favorite teachers. Don't let online impressions deceive you.
     
  34. SF_Giants66

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    Why are you attacking the OP? Hahaha
     
  35. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    This is quite offensive. Talk about twisting words, which you do seem to be an expert at.

    :spitwater::spitwater::spitwater:

    I can assure you you'd never be hired at my school.
     
  36. SF_Giants66

    SF_Giants66 Cohort

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    Lol! You're not gonna know! You won't have any idea who I am in person. You likely won't see many signs at all.


    Also, I have not bullied anyone. Stating my political opinions is not bullying.
     
  37. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    The thread is off-topic and is now closed.
     
  38. SF_Giants66

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    Well one of you doesn't have to worry though, because I'll never live in Virginia. Ohio? I might go to Cleveland. I'm not sure if that is where you are.
     
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