Do you teach your students the right to refuse the Pledge of Allegiance?

SF : Isn't it okay just to say that if students don't want to say the pledge, they can just sit or stand quietly?

What you totally lack are the social skills necessary to respect and appreciate the beliefs of others. You take any explanation as permission to put forth your beliefs and try to ram them down other's throats. Where is the respect for various opinions and beliefs that you seem to want to champion, yet manage to trample over and over?

Until they are old enough to truly understand the history, intent at the time it was written, the circumstances under which it was adopted as the Pledge of Allegiance, and what it means to be a citizen of a nation made up almost entirely of immigrants, they can't make a truly informed choice or decision about whether or not to partake in the pledge. SF, I truly wish you would give this a rest and quit trying to high-jack and manipulate every thread you are on to being your own little posting factory intended to do nothing other than to get people posting in circles. Be done with it. If you used to pledge and now you don't, so be it. If you have parent issues about being made to do something, share with your therapist. If you want to discuss how you would run/share your beliefs in your own classroom, let's wait until that day ever or actually arrives. If children were born precocious like the young of some animals, you could impart all choices to them at birth. Humans are not that kind of species, and our long childhood is designed to be nurtured, taught, encouraged, challenged, and finally released to make their own choices of what they will do, where they will live, how they will live their lives, and thousands of other choices that they are NOT equipped to understand and accept at a very young age.

If your childhood was miserable and you hate your parents, or any other chain of events that have affected you for a variety of reasons, at least be aware that those feelings are now spilling over onto people who have heard your arguments ad nauseam. Let the parents and actual teachers make the choices for these children that they are responsible for at this time. The way you present your opinions seems very much like propaganda to me, which is rich coming from someone proposing such ideological freedom. I don't know if this is because of a medical problem that you can't drop this, or if you are just out to rack up posts, or whether we are all being punked. It really doesn't matter since it truly is beating a dead horse. Here's hoping this thread is closed very soon as well. That's just me voicing my personal opinion, which I am sure you respect.

 

I didn't read this whole thread, but my school does the pledge every day. It actually shocked me as I've never been in or taught at a school that did this. The very first day I told them "you do not have to stand, you do not have to say the pledge, but you do need to be respectfully quiet for those who want to partake"

 

Back to the original question, no, I would never inform them. One, I don't think it's necessary and two, I'd like to keep my job. Now, since I teach of the US I haven't been in this situation in almost 3 years. However, we do say a version of the pledge of the allegiance here. I've never once heard a kid say they don't want to say the "salud a la bandera."

 

We have a long period of orientation during which we cover a great deal of information with our homerooms. I have a PowerPoint that teaches the flag code and explains the pledge. This is important to me because I didn't understand the pledge as a student and thus developed a bad attitude about it. I wish I had been informed. Anyhow, I tell students at the end that if the information shared feels right to them, they should take the pledge each morning seriously (meaning stand up straight, no leaning on the desk, etc.). If it presents some sort of conflict, they should remain silent and still (not going through papers, for example). I do this primarily for our JWs. There is no halfa--ing it in my classroom. You either say it with conviction or refrain. I truly respect either.

 

A jerk? Maybe not, but you do seem to be inclined to keep sticking your hand in a variety of buzzsaws just to see whether there's any change in what happens.

 

Eloquently phrased. :thumb:

 

I had my kids say the pledge together, sing the national anthem, then sing either the presidents or the state capitals. Every day. Even the few non-citizen kids did so, not that I told them they had to. They were interested in all of it. I taught them about the flag, and held up a book of watercolor pictures that went with every line of the anthem. At least once a week I asked them who wrote the anthem and during which war it was written. We went over the vocabulary contained in the pledge and the anthem. They were all better for this knowledge about our country. They were proud of themselves.

 

I'm telling you, this is all a sham designed to either raise the hackles of unsuspecting teachers, or get himself banned, or both.

This would not be the first time we've been punked.

 

No, there is no punking going on. I'm just asking why parents don't want their kids to know the facts about the pledge. That seems pretty shady to me. It becomes easier for kids to agree with you when you withhold important information. I'm surprised they aren't trying to sell their children used cars.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pledge of allegiance

 

When they are young, we don't tell them about getting wasted on booze and becoming an alcoholic, about the high of street drugs that could turn them into crack addicts who will steal to support their habit, or how to use a condom at the age of 5 "just in case". Yep, pretty shady. Oh wait! Sounds more like parenting at the appropriate age of development for the child. Since you don't have kids (no mention) and don't actively teach yet, parents win. Revisit this when you have third grade children of your own.

 

Interesting that most people agree 3rd graders aren't developed enough yet, but yet they don't have a problem with 3rd graders saying a pledge they don't understand.

 

If or when you actually get a job, you'll see there are so many more important things to worry about. You're like a dog with a bone right now or like a horse with blinders. You can only focus on this one topic. Let it go. It's not worth it. Worry about the real child abuse out there.

 

The fact that someone would compare constitutional rights to sexual contraceptives is a bit offensive to the fact that nobody even tries to see where I'm coming from.

 

There is a show on H2 (History Channel) right now about the flag and pledge. FYI.

 

Exactly. I don't know whether to feel sorry for this person or not. Just again.

 

I chose third grade because I figured I wouldn't still be on this forum by the time your kids are that age. Virtually any number would work. You have, as usual, missed the point.

 

Knowing about sexual contraception - at the right age - can go a long way towards promoting a long and healthy life. I don't think reciting the pledge or not reciting the pledge comes with the same perks, IMHO. And you are right, I have no interest in knowing where you are coming from - I simply wish you would stop trying to stuff your ideas down readers throats. If your idea has merit, some will consider it. They don't have to side with you on this forum to reflect. If they choose to inform their kids, I am OK with that, too. What you want, though, is the world according to your version of it. You really have little experience with children long term, but it very much feels like you want to preach to me about what is and is not appropriate for me and my child, our relationship. You have been rude and obstinate because we don't see your vision, when we are confused that you have made no effort to see ours. I am going to say that you and I will always agree to disagree, and that is me being tactful and pleasant. You will cling to whatever is rattling around in your head, the thing that essentially makes you oppose and denigrate all parents who don't share your vision. Good luck with your schooling - perhaps more experience will give you a clue as to why you fail to get the response you desire. Experience can be a great teacher, if you embrace it and grow with it. That has been my experience. . .

 

The reason I'm upset is not just because of the pledge, but because people have no courtesy just to explain themselves and answer the questions. It seems to me the only reason any parent would have a problem with teachers explaining the pledge being optional is because they would rather keep their kids ignorant of the facts instead of them knowing them. Would you be upset if your kids did the research themselves and found out?


This world and society scares me and especially with the brainwashing and abuse it is doing to the children. I have a friend who was forced into religious faith with the threat of getting hit with a belt for not believing, and that pretty much seems what conservative parents are doing to their kids today. They are taking the "don't be who you are, but be as I want you to be" philosophy. They don't believe in teaching kids how to think, but what to think without question. If it comes to religion they teach that questioning will send them to hell. Especially the Baptists.

I hope you realize what your kind of mentality does to your kids once an adult coerces them into sex abuse and the kids felt it was their duty just to listen without question because it was an adult with power.

 

You're upset that people aren't being courteous? I feel like this is a pot-and-kettle situation.

 

Yes, because I've answered every question and addressed every point someone has put in front of me. However, when I asked why kids knowing a supreme court fact would be a bad thing, someone used an example of teaching 5 year old children about condoms. Yeah, slippery slope fallacy for the win.

 

Now who's using a slippery slope fallacy? A parent asking their child to say the pledge now means that said child will be raped because they don't know how to say no? Are we serious?

 

It's not the pledge, but so far I've asked if parents would be upset if they looked up and found the facts for themselves, and nobody who said they don't want a teacher telling them the pledge is optional answered it, so I'm assuming that parents want their kids to be ignorant and not learn anything that doesn't help their child conform to their views. They don't want their kids to be individuals, they want them to be the kind of person who does whatever anyone tells them to do.

 

Actually, you haven't. Earlier I posed the question: would you also feel the need to tell students about other "lies" their parents have inflicted, such as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?

 

Actually, I have called a lot of parents out before for deliberately lying to their kids before, because it usually ends up with them being disappointed and feeling like they were used and taken advantage of for not having the complex thought to judge those concepts with critical thinking. When I was in 2nd grade, I started to tell other younger kids that those things weren't real because I thought they'd want to know the truth instead of being deceived. Now, I don't really care about those issues, because they do have some kind of good critical thinking test in with them, but when it comes to making kids recite some scripted line and participate in some fascist ritual, they should at least know they don't have to say it if they choose not to.

 

Also, I know that people think with these last several threads that I'm just here to argue, but I didn't learn or consider anything people said, but they would be wrong. I just wish people would have stated it directly instead of hinting and implying.

I've gathered that there are other ways to address the issue of students who don't say the pledge without openly telling them they don't have to say it, such as asking the ones who don't say to remain quiet out of respect at least. It gives them the information that they aren't required by law to say it without being given the impression that they are being told not to say it.

However, the only point I would make with this kind of dialogue is that it usually isn't the kids who are not saying the pledge that need to be asked to be respectful.

What upsets me is that I was under the impression when going into teaching it would be about finding my own way and using my strengths in a positive way, and many people here make teaching out to be a profession which you are institutionalized into the 1984 Big Brother system. That's what I'm gathering anyhow.

 

I for one have implied for the reason that competent and respectful authors do: they prefer to assume that readers are smart enough and skilled enough to be capable of inferring.

If you're looking for a profession in which to find your own way, you really do need to look outside public K-12 education. It hasn't been that sort of profession since well before your grandparents were in short pants.

 

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about people you've never met before. Some of us don't respond because we don't have kids of our own. I can imagine the scenario, but until I'm there I don't know what I'd do for sure. But I can only imagine how you'd come across to a poor second grader.

And there are absolutely times when kids need to do things simply because someone says so. In a fire, I don't want my kid playing 20 questions with the firefighter trying to get him/her out of the building. If there's an active shooter in my building and we're on lockdown, I don't want one of my kids asking a million and two questions. I want them so quiet we can hear a pin drop. When I'm teaching and I tell them a noun is a person, place, thing, or idea, they don't need to question it. As they get older, they can study linguistics if they like and learn all the little secrets, but their brains aren't ready for that in second grade.

 

Expecting people to be able to read between the lines when you beat around the bush is not intelligence. It is either cowardice or deliberate avoidance.

 

You have much to learn, little grasshopper.

 

I've learned one thing. It seems many people here like being teachers because of how much they hate children.

They bark orders, they obey, and sometimes the teacher might give them a treat.

 

Do you even realize you have jumped from asking about reciting the pledge of allegiance to sex abuse and accusing "all conservative parents" of beating their children into submission? Then you went on to single out the Baptists. You may know Baptists that are guilty of providing religious education to young children, but how can you possibly indite ALL Baptists, or all adults of sex abuse? If that is how you think, then you have become part of the reviled group, by virtue of being an untrustworthy adult with power! You jump all over the place, citing varied "sins" of "all" adults and parents, without even considering that what is far more normal is that parents love their children, and do their very best to be role models, answer endless questions, truthfully, about more subjects than you can even comprehend. That is disrespect on your part, and if you want to know why you are not getting the "answers" you seek, you need to look no farther than the disdain you have for every parent who happens to be a teacher on this forum. I don't know if this is part of your autism, but I would call it oppositional defiance, clearly aimed at the people you seem to want to engage in dialogue. Is this part of the autism? I have no way of knowing, but I believe that these are conversations that you should be having with your parents as well as your therapist. Take these threads and let the therapist try to show you why you are not interacting successfully with potential peers. If you can't post here without antagonizing participants, I don't really know how you will be able to teach successfully, but that is not something that is within my power to rectify or mend. These are your personal demons. Using terms like fascist, adults (implied - ALL adults) coercing their children into sex abuse, images of Hitler, parents want their kids to be ignorant, as well as your assumption that parents don't want their kids to be individuals, well, this is the language and attitudes that are keeping you from having meaningful conversations on the forum. The majority of the respondents have not personally attacked you, despite that virtually every one of us has been insulted and attacked by you. You give no real indication that you want anything other than a place to insult the greatest number of people in the shortest amount of time, and that is mean and disrespectful. If we do, indeed, have all these freedoms and rights, they should include freedom to speak as freely to you when we believe you are wrong as you freely do to us. Yet we haven't, or at least we haven't come close to the tirades you have rained down on us. To be respected you need to give respect in return. I'm not feeling that equality.

Feel free to ask the same questions over and over, just expect the same answers, which you will continue to ignore. If you truly are this clueless about personal interactions that offend everyone within ear-shot then I fear you will have a very difficult road in front of you. You have no clue what I, or any other parent on this site, has taught our children, because I wouldn't share that with you for all the tea in China. You assume that means I have brainwashed and abused my son, but you don't really know that, do you? Some parents are narrow minded, while others answer all questions honestly and openly, but you just paint us all with the same paint brush without concern for accuracy. That is MY problem with your posts and your attitude and your accusations. I believe I have the constitutional freedom to NOT believe you are right, so I will invoke that at this point, and let others talk to what appears to be a brick wall. You will note that I didn't call you a brick wall, but only addressed the appearance that you have exhibited through your posts. By the way, my son turned out just fine - his own man, independent, with a moral core and compass that I believe will serve him well. We accomplished that without sex abuse, lies, beatings, or any of your other accusations. Score one for concerned and loving parents.

 

Bark Bark!!! :lol: I'm sure you know what that means in "bark order language"! Stop trolling already! You know my secret...I hate children and I'm an abusive mom! Move on silly man! wait for it...........the snarky reply.... I didn't want to feed the troll, but I did!!! :sorry:

 

Actually, you can't use "they" to bark the orders as well as obey - it leaves the sentence very unclear. The teachers can bark, though on occasion I have had students bark, on some days there is no obedience, yet the students expect a treat despite lack of effort or lack of attention. Welcome to the real world. :lol:

 

I didn't say that conservative parents were going to sexually abuse their kids. I was saying that kind of mentality can cause it to happen. Many psychologists would agree with me. The kind of lessons we teach kids about doing whatever adults tell them to do and that they can't say no is exactly what causes them to be taken advantage of that way.

Again, the question that hasn't been answered repeatedly. For the parents who don't want the teachers telling them the pledge by law is not required, would they feel the same way if their kids found out themselves by reading about the history of it? The only way any parent would say yes to that is if they want their kids to be ignorant because it is easier for them to control them that way. Those are controlling, manipulative, and abusive parents.

 

What is this thread?

 

The thread that helped me moved from Comrade to Cohort.

 

Most of us want it to be a cautionary tale; one of us wants it to yield the only answer he's interested in, and he's willing to alienate and bully even people who might not disagree with him till he gets it.

 

OK, you want an answer - I could care less about the child knowing that he has a constitutional right to refuse the Pledge of Allegiance, but I tried to answer before and you didn't listen. I believe that children can't process some information in its entirety before they have acquired the schema that allows them to use that information. Acquiring the schema takes time and experience, which brings us back to the fact that you appear to want to announce this on day one of your first teaching assignment, without concern for the readiness of the child to understand and internalize the information in a way that helps them understand and utilize all of their constitutional rights.

Telling the child that he doesn't have to say the Pledge before teaching the history and significance of the Pledge is putting the cart before the horse. All things in due time, which is what most teachers and parents strive for. You appear to just be looking for the shock value and the chance to show everyone how smart you are. To me, HUGE difference. Now you have an answer. Can you please stop asking and stop making this the ONLY thing in the world? There are real issues we need to address to get to that schema and understanding, but you don't appear to want to focus on any of that, from what you have written.

Now your answer has been given.

One can only hope that this thread can now be closed since you have finally stated the real personal purpose of this thread to you. I have no idea of why it matters what designation they give you for posts, especially if those posts managed to alienate you for virtually every member who read your posts.

Oh well - I guess people sometimes have peculiar personal goals.