Disruptive Student Not Included

Discussion in 'Secondary Education' started by Peregrin5, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Jan 24, 2012

    So today, I was holding a group activity in which students discerned evolutionary relationships using nested plastic bags and determined their shared derived characteristics (what everything in one bag has in common.

    I have a few students in my class who are very disruptive and almost intentionally rude. I'm fairly sure that one of them has ADHD and even my master teacher has problems with him. We usually allow him to go and work in the Learning Center (a place where students with special needs can work independently outside of class under the supervision of a specialist).

    Today he asked to go to the Learning Center after causing a big ruckus during the do-now by being out of his seat and harassing his partner. I told him he could go, but then received a call from the Learning Center after he had arrived that they couldn't deal with him at the moment because it was exam time, and he was tasked with working on a group activity. So I told them to send him back and integrated him back into the group.

    This kid does not have a good track record, not even with the other kids. He is rude to them, harasses them constantly, and is loud and never does the work.

    I pity him, however, because due to his behavior, nobody wanted to work with him. After I integrated him into a group, I got complaints from the group that he wasn't doing any work and was kicking one of the group members. He complained that they weren't working with him. I could see why they weren't, but I explained to them that they all had to work together as a group, and had to integrate everyone each step of the way.

    It eventually ended up with him wandering around to other groups causing them to complain and keeping other people from getting work done, at which point I had to inform my master teacher, and she called his parents. He pleaded and whined that he had done nothing wrong, when he obviously knew (since I reminded him multiple times) to remain in his seat, not harass other students, and attempt to work in his group.

    I gave him a chance, as I do all students in my class, that if their name gets up on the board, they have a chance for me to remove it, if they are non-disruptive for the rest of the class period.


    I really do feel sorry for this kid. I'm sure he hates me now, because I've been his age, and when I got it into my head that I did nothing wrong, then I did nothing wrong, even if I was being the worst kid in the world (I too grew up with ADHD). But no one will work with him, and he just acts out, and all he wants to do is get out of the classroom and go to the learning center, and not be involved in class activities (I don't blame him here either, since it looks like no one wants him around).

    How do I integrate him into the classroom culture, and get him to present proper classroom etiquette and make him feel more welcome? I cannot tolerate his acting out, but at the same time, I cannot tolerate him being ignored by the rest of the class.

    (to give myself one tip, I realize that next time I do group work such as this, I should definitely define roles for each group member)
     
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  3. Ron6103

    Ron6103 Habitué

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    I don't have a good answer for you unfortunately. I've had students like this too, but I only see them for 45 minutes a day, for a specific subject area. I don't have the time, training, or knowledge to delve into the deeper reasons behind such behavior... I simply need to manage it so that others can learn. If it gets to a point where the student is so disruptive that they are impeding the learning of the rest of the class, then that student is done for the day in my room. ADHD or not, once other students are prevented from learning, you're gone. We have a room in the building that is staffed every period specifically for teachers to use if they need to kick a kid out of class.

    It's not a great solution, and it doesn't integrate such students into the classroom culture. But one kid's issues cannot overrule the needs of 29 other students. Thus, if a kid simply refuses to cooperate, that kid leaves.
     
  4. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

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    Jan 25, 2012

    I know how it feels to have a disruptive student in the classroom. However, I question the legal issues involved in sending a general education student to a special education setting, which places him outside of his least restrictive environment.

    I also wonder how he is learning in your class if he is rarely receiving the benefit of instruction.

    What consequences do you have in place, besides allowing him to leave the room, for his behaviors?
     
  5. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

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    Also, and please don't be offended by this, the students will follow your lead on accepting or not accepting this child. Since you usually allow him to leave the classroom, they will not accept him as part of the class. I realize that some of this lack of acceptance comes from his own behavior, but you and your master teacher set the tone in your class.
     
  6. Cerek

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    It would help for you to give defined roles within each group. That way, each student knows exactly what his or her responsibility is within the group - including the disruptive student. It may not change his lack of effort, but will certainly counter his whining and argument that he "did nothing wrong", because you can show exactly what he was supposed to do. If he hasn't completed his defined task, then it IS on him, not anybody else.

    I understand the sympathy and the frustration that goes along with it. We have a student in our after school group that is just like this. He has some very serious issues outside of school that have had a tremendously negative impact on him (understandably so). He is very angry and disruptive at school and often refused to do ANY work at all. I understand his pain and the anger resulting from it and I truly feel sorry for what he has been through, but there comes a time when he still has to take responsibility for his own behavior.

    The other day, I noticed our afterschool director and a counselor were talking with this student in the office (before afterschool started). The counselor told him the same thing - despite everything he has been through, there comes a time when he has to "man up" and accept responsibility for his actions at school (her words, not mine).

    Giving the student specific tasks and defined roles might help because it will eliminate any arguments of "I didn't know what I was supposed to do", but it still might not be enough to stop his behavior completely. If he continues disrupting the entire class, then I agree with Ron that the needs of the other students overrides the actions of an individual student.

    It is important for you and the master teacher to do everything you can to keep the student in the room and model acceptance of him as a person, as much as possible. But his lack of acceptance among the classmates is the result of HIS actions, not yours. You and the master teacher have only had this kid for one year. The classmates have had him every year and their attitude towards him is the result of HIS actions year-in and year-out. I've seen this in action as well. There was a student at my former school that was VERY disruptive, harassed other students and NEVER felt anything was his fault. His classmates had been with him since Kindergarten. By the time they got in middle school, most of them would have very little to do with him anymore. It is sad for the student, but it is his own fault they feel like that.
     
  7. KateL

    KateL Habitué

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    Jan 25, 2012

    One of the issues with group work is that some students don't know how to work in groups. We tell them to be nice, and to include everyone, but some students don't know what this looks like. Maybe next time you can do a mini-lesson on "What to do if a group member won't participate", since this student can't be the only one who wasn't participating. You can also do "What to do if your group ignores you" and "What to do if you don't understand what to do".
     
  8. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    This is true. During my ST, I designed a group project for the 7th grade students and divided them into groups based on my assessment of their abilities and skill levels. That worked well for most of the groups, but ended up putting two "alpha females" in one of the groups. Hoo-Boy...that did NOT work well at all! :rolleyes: Both of them wanted to "be in charge" and do most of the work. The other two group members didn't mind since Alpha 1 and Alpha 2 apparently wanted to do ALL the work themselves.

    I had to intervene and give each of the members a specific role to smooth things out and make the group more productive.
     
  9. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Sorry for not clarifying, but he is a special education student (has an IEP and available for resources), and I could be wrong, but from what I've seen at this school it seems that if he wants to go to the Learning Center, we are REQUIRED to accommodate him. They simply didn't have enough room in the LC for this type of activity at this time because its exam period for the entire school.
     
  10. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    I definitely agree with this. I will certainly define roles clearly next time. I don't know why I didn't this time because they've taught that to us multiple times in our classroom management courses. xP I was also having a horrible day because I had a really bad cold and I pleaded with the kids to try to behave and pay attention when I ring the bell (my attention getter), because I had no voice and was feeling horrible, but they weren't having any of that.

    When I was talking to the kid after class and calling his mom, I told him (as I've told other students before), that a good man accepts when he's done wrong, and accepts the consequences without making excuses. So I guess I gave similar advice to that counselor.
     
  11. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    This is a great idea. I'll keep this in mind for my next group activity.
     
  12. 2ndTimeAround

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    Jan 25, 2012

    How old is he?
     
  13. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Jan 26, 2012

    12 years old, 7th grade.
     
  14. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

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    Jan 26, 2012

    If he is a student in special education, clarify whether you really have to send him to the Learning Resource Center if he requests it. That seems like something students could take advantage of.

    His IEP will mandate what percentage of his education will be spent within the general ed setting and what percentage will be spent out of it. If he's out of your classroom too often, that's also a legal issue as he must be in his Least Restrictive Environment.
     
  15. lucybelle

    lucybelle Connoisseur

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    Jan 26, 2012

    Your kid reminds me of this one kid I had in my class (9th grade). I know as teachers we shouldn't say this, but that kid was the most annoying person I have ever met. Ever. No one in the class liked him. He was constantly causing problems, being loud, purposefully annoying other students and me, starting fights, etc. I called his mom every.single.day. We had multiple parent conferences with the rest of his teachers, as he gave every one of them the same problems.

    I tried everything with him. Whenever he had a good day (which was not often) I highly praised him and called his mom to tell him how well he was doing. I put him in charge of things. I let him be the "leader". I let him go to the computer lab to do "extra assignments". I let him work in the hallway or another classroom. I even let him use his headphones as long as he promised to do his work. There was nothing that worked.

    I'm sure there was plenty of good advice given, but I gotta tell you, with this one, I couldn't find an answer. There's probably one out there, but I never figured it out.

    Best of luck.
     
  16. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    Jan 26, 2012

    I will definitely try to find out more about that. Thanks!

    And the learning center is a very non-restrictive environment. (Hence why he wants to go all the time.)
     
  17. GemStone

    GemStone Habitué

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    Jan 27, 2012

    You're welcome. :)

    Least Restrictive Environment explains the environment in which a student will be able to be most successful. It's a legally mandated part of the IEP. If a student's LRE is said to be outside of the general ed setting, justification must be given in the IEP to support that placement. If the student is outside of his LRE for a greater amount of time than specified in the IEP, then the school is in legal violation of the IEP.
     
  18. 2ndTimeAround

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    Some kids are just jerks. Special needs or not.
     
  19. AFine

    AFine Rookie

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    I just wanted to say that I have faced this issue in a class where I have a student who has an IEP and refuses to work. He also invades other students' personal space by talking 2" from their faces. He has poor hygiene which certainly complicates this issue. (These things aren't really tied to his disability, but they are still problematic) I usually address it by talking to the students in his group and saying, "I know it might be more difficult to work with _______ in your group, but we all know that it is important he is welcomed in our class." I have also made it a policy to not put him with the same people twice in a row. My students kind of see it as their duty to include him in their group, and they know that I will be fair and not ask them to be in their group every time. Still I struggled with a lot of the same questions as this poster. I loved getting to read all of the expert teachers' advice. It gives me ideas on things I can do to help him be a more successful group member. I especially love the mini-lesson idea!
     
  20. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    I'd like to see us show at least a little more concern for the educational rights of the other students in the room.
     
  21. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Wow....so what do you do with such kids? Dismiss them, write them off? Sometimes those 'jerks' are the ones who most need to feel a sense of belonging. Yes, there are students who need to be in a different environment, whose behavior warrants strong consequences and certainly the learning of other students should not be compromised by a student who has 'an agenda', but I'd be hard pressed to simplify such a situation with such a dismissive categorization.

    Read the OP's first post again. She's looking for a way to facilitate learning for ALL her students.
     
  22. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Feb 12, 2012

    Not to hi-jack, but I did have to mention this.

    I would bet invading personal space and hygiene issues are related to the disability. Refusing to work is also a result from strugging without getting the right help or not really understanding what needs to be done.

    Yes, they are probably all part of the disability. They are behavioral aspects of a disability. Not everyone has all of the same difficulies based on the disability category they are sorted in, but everything you listed can very easily be part of a disability.
     
  23. TeachOn

    TeachOn Habitué

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    "She's looking for a way to facilitate learning for ALL her students."

    Yes, and we often struggle do so without - to use your own words - "compromising the learning of other students." Sped law speaks loudly - at times perhaps disproportionately - for the rights of the disabled student. I would have us not lose sight of the educational rights of the others. Overall, I worry that we devote too much attention to the needier students generally: Sped, emphasis on graduation rates, emphasis on achieving (minimum) competencies, alternative educational opportunities for "at-risk" students, burgeoning 504 Plans, etc. Part of the educational mission must be stewardship of the nation's intellectual resources, and that requires attention to the middle and upper ranges of ability. The odd stray Gifted and Talented person doesn't meet the need. The notion that better students can "take care of themselves" is offensive and irresponsible.

    I am aware, of course, that these concerns will make me seem to some an elitist ogre. I am not an ogre. I may be an elitist: in agreeing with you that we should "facilitate learning for ALL [our] students," I would indeed include all of our students, including the middle, including the best. And none of them should be attended to too much at the expense of the others.
     
  24. Ron6103

    Ron6103 Habitué

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    Fantastic post. This is something I've argued about for years with my colleagues, but its hard to gain any traction. We spend more time and money on our SpEd students and our behavior problem students, than regular ed students. The money issue I cannot solve, but the time issue I can... hence my earlier post in this thread.

    Do I wish I could reach all students? Of course. But when one student disrupts the learning of the other 29, I am not going to sacrifice much of those precious 45 minutes to "solve" the issues with the disruptive kid, at the expense of the rest of the class. I just don't have the time for that, and have a lesson to teach to everyone else. Hence my note earlier... if a kid is disruptive to the point that it bothers other learners, that kid gets kicked out of class. Period.

    That said, I may try to delve into the issue AFTER class, and perhaps touch base with the guidance counselor or social worker. But class time is precious, and I'm not going to spend it on a kid who is intentionally trying to screw up the learning of others.
     
  25. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    I rarely, if ever, kick kids out of class. I do, however, regularly exclude them from group work - spec ed or not. I was the kid who had to cover for the misdeeds of others my entire school career and there's no way I'd put my students through that. It is my job as a teacher to work with problem students. It is not the job of my students to do so.
     
  26. Mamacita

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    I do not do "group work;" I hated it myself as a student and as an adult, and I definitely loathe the thought of a few doing all the work and the others reaping the benefits! Nobody deserves rewards/points/whatever unless he/she did his/her fair share. Rewarding the lazy is punishing the workers.

    I am also at that point where I just might stand up and scream that the rights of the many should almost always take precedence over the disruptive misbehaviors of the few. No student has the right to distract, disrupt, and otherwise hinder other students from learning. They all have a right to be there, yes, but NOBODY has the right to suck all the oxygen out of the room.
     
  27. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    But group work is necessary skill to learn. It shouldn't be a problem if students get to pick their own groups.
    I completely agree that no student has the right to stop others from learning. I absolutely hated classes where students would be so rude and distracting, that the whole class got nowhere. Absolutely not fair.
     
  28. Ron6103

    Ron6103 Habitué

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    Is group work important to learn? Yes, I wouldn't argue against that. But in the classroom (especially at the secondary level) when there are a multitude of students in each room that absolutely abhor school work, placing them in ANY group, isn't fair to that group. Others end up having to pick up the slack, and that person gets a free ride.

    Now, as to the solutions to that. Yes, if I gave individual grades for the group work, then the working students would benefit while the slackers wouldn't. But that still forces some kids to do more work than others, even if their grades do benefit. That's not fair. One could also assign specific roles to each group member, ensuring each kid has a specific task. But again, with kids that don't care, they don't bother with their task, and the entire group suffers.

    Basically, I see groupwork as a great tool for motivated learners, and I do use it in my AP classes. But for my regular-tier classes, I won't do it anymore. The kids that blow off school work ruin it for everyone else.
     
  29. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    Yes, definitely. It's not fair to students who actually care to be placed in groups where they need to do all of the work. If I was in a class where I had friends who were motivated as well, group work went really well. I suppose this is the ideal situation though, because I think group work can be really beneficial.
     
  30. 2ndTimeAround

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    No, what I meant was sometimes it is the personality of the student and the choices he makes that puts him in such situations - not any disability he may have. Sometimes you need to look and see if the student really needs any special response to the choice or if you should treat him (and let the other kids treat him) like any other student.

    If someone repeatedly treats me poorly and disrupts my learning, I'm not going to be too welcoming when he joins my group. And I'm an adult. I definitely wouldn't expect children to put up with a bunch of mess.
     
  31. 2ndTimeAround

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    Feb 14, 2012

    :thumb:
     
  32. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Feb 14, 2012

    I can see both sides of this issue.

    On one hand, we are the adults in the room and we should model both acceptance and the willingness to go the extra mile with difficult students. Even without disabilities, many kids have situations outside of school that cause them to act out badly in school, because it's the only environment they feel they can exert any control over. So we do have to look past their behavior to a degree and try to find ways to get them engaged in the class and the lesson.

    I do feel we have to put more effort into the struggling students than those that do well or are gifted. I understand the "unfairness" of not providing extra enrichment for the high-level students. It may be unfair to think these students will take care of themselves, but for the most part, it is true. Higher level students enjoy learning and have a higher, internal motivation to learn than lower level or struggling students. While we should certainly search for activities to encourage the gifted in our group as well, they are generally much more willing AND able to work on those enrichment activities on their own. On the other hand, the struggling student needs to know the teacher is NOT going to just give up on them, despite their best efforts to make that happen.

    Group work - I hear you loud and clear on this one. I had some classmates that nobody would have wanted in their group either, for the same reasons you mentioned. So I can definitely see it from the kids' POV. To off-set that, I would assign specific tasks for each group member , and also include an individual effort grade in the rubric. So everyone will be graded on the overall strength of the project, but each member will also be graded individually on their amount of participation and contribution to the group effort. That way, the members that DO put in the work get their effort rewarded while the one that was just coasting gets the grade they deserve as well.

    As far as letting students pick their partners, I do NOT agree with that. First of all, one of the main purposes of group work is to combine students with different skills and ability levels. Secondly, when you get a job, you usually don't get to pick your team partners then either. Instead, you have to work with the team members you have or whoever the boss pairs you up with.

    Finally, I will second NCScienceTeach's comment that some kids ARE just being jerks. The student I've mentioned during my internship certainly fit that description. The child was very gifted and had an almost intuitive knowledge about math, so I never worried about him understanding the content. However, he still literally went out of his way to try and push my buttons each day and disrupt class as much as possible. It reached the point that his classmates complained to their homeroom teacher about his antics because it was starting to affect them as well. There was no reason for the kid to act the way he did OTHER than just wanting to be a jerk.

    We got past this once I was no longer the student teacher. When I subbed for his homeroom teacher after my internship, he was much better behaved. I even went out of MY way to thank him for his behavior. Later that day, when I got onto some students for their behavior, one of this kids friends (or maybe former friend) said "Yeah, Johnny, stop acting like that." I looked at the friend and said "Johnny is NOT the problem. HE is doing what he is supposed to. YOU, on the other hand, are not."

    That let "Johnny" know that I considered our past to be behind us and none of it had been taken personally.
     
  33. Ron6103

    Ron6103 Habitué

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    Feb 14, 2012

    I agree with much of the rest of your post, but wanted to address the above. Even if you assign specific tasks, what happens to the group's overall effort when one of the tasks simply doesn't get done, because the kid you assigned it to chooses not to work? The issue applies even with individual effort grades...the group effort suffers, even if their individual grades do not. Typically group work requires some sort of combined final product or outcome, and if any one person doesn't contribute, that's a problem.

    The grade is just a sidenote there... somebody will STILL have to pickup the slack. A poster cannot have an entirely empty segment, or a presentation cannot skip a required topic, or whatever.... just because a single kid or two slacks off. Basically, a single kid that refuses to work, ruins a group effort. Thus, I avoid group work in all but my advanced classes. I don't like that, but I feel I have little choice.
     
  34. Cerek

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    Feb 14, 2012

    Those are legitimate points, Ron. I would address this problem in two ways.

    First, I'm not going to assign the "slacker" student (poor choice of words, I know, but it is what it is) a task that is absolutely integral to the success of the project, UNLESS it involves a skill or approach I know (s)he is pretty good at.

    That still leaves the possibility of the student doing NO work and the others having to "pick up the slack". In that case, I will simply ignore the part that was not done and count the other tasks assigned as being "complete" for the project. If the poster has a missing section, that section will only count against the student that was supposed to fill it and I will simply consider 3 sections (or 4 or 5 etc) to still count as "complete" for that group. The ones that did their sections will be graded as if the entire project HAD been completed, but the one who did no work at all will have their grade penalized on participation and THEIR project grade will reflect the fact that part of the project was not complete.
     
  35. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    Feb 14, 2012

    I have major issues with other students ability and product being used as a grade for other students. It corrupts the grade on the report card.

    What if the group has one stellar student and the rest average students? Why should the stellar student that could produce a much better overall project be penalized for being in a group with students that do not yet have the skills to produce the quality work of the stellar student?

    Anytime you look at the overall project for a grade the end result is an inflated mastery (grade) for the weakest student and a deflated mastery for the strongest student. While learning can be done within a group, showing individual mastery can only be done individually. Grading for the overall project just shows the median of the group of students mastery.
     

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