Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Grammy Teacher, Jun 8, 2011.
Jun 8, 2011
I don't think that about you at ALL. You're always so sweet so I'd hate to think you think I'm talking about you. I have zero problems with people disagreeing ( I actually learn a lot from it) but I don't like the ganging up that happens sometimes.
Peachy, if the shoe doesn't fit, then you have nothing to feel bad about. You are kind.
I get that... Sometimes though people (I know I'm not the only one) post things to inform all to something, not just about shoes.
I'm not saying people shouldn't, just that we come here for different reasons, and I don't think a judgement call about respect should be made based on what people don't read or dont respond to.
My not reading a Memorial Day thread on a teaching board has no correlation to my thoughts or feelings about Memorial Day, only to my mood and interests at the time I log in.
That is true... we are here for different reasons. I know that... I was just pointing it out. I know I'm not the only one that thinks that... but like you said basically to each his/her own!!!
Have a Good night!!!
Good Night and Peace to all.
(((HUGS))) & Peace to all.
I don't want to excuse anyone's bad behavior, but I tend to go with what my mama taught me a long time ago. If you don't want to leave a record of something, don't write it down. There are lots of things that happen in my life--both personal and professional--that I think, "Hm, I wonder what AtoZ would have to say about this." But there are a lot more that I choose not to share, for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because it's just not worth it, sometimes it is because I don't want to hear what people have to say. If I do post something, I expect to receive feedback. I can't complain if I don't like that feedback.
:dunno: Just my thoughts.
Jun 9, 2011
I agree with you. I do the same thing, post something to get "opinions," but when it turns to personal attacks or ganging up, then it changes the tone. Let's be civil and consider how we word things, myself included. I think we're all guilty of getting carried away in some discussions on here and if one person gets off track, it's easy to join in and add to it.
I would think that those long-standing members would know better, but I think they just got "carried away" and perhaps really don't think they said anything wrong.
I was doing some thinking last nite... It isn't about making a comment (which I know some people don't like to or want to comment on) on some of them it's about sometimes about just the views.
I don't have time to read every single thread on here, even if I wanted to.
I just don't see the point in assuming disrespect or whatever just because people don't look at a thread.
Since you mentioned Memorial Day, I spent a lot of time talking to my dad when he got home from riding my bike in Rolling Thunder. He doesn't talk about Vietnam much, but he needs to after that. When I got online, I didn't really feel the need to open threads on unrelated forums about Memorial Day.
That is my reason for specifically not browsing your thread, but it is irrelevant anyway. This thread that we are now reading is about disrespect on the forum, and I question the need to pass judgement on other members, especially for no reason at all: what purpose does it serve?
By all means, continue posting threads of interest to you, but please don't make assumptions about me based on my not reading it (which I may or may not do depending on how I choose to spend my time).
I might be wrong, but has anyone else noticed how all the men on the forum haven't responded. LOL
I went through and I read what everyone was saying. I agree half and half with everyone. I think there is a difference between constructive criticism and personal opinions. I try to find a medium between the both so that I don't give out my personal opinion too much and/or offend anyone. I have felt attacked on the forum. I use to log on here over 5 times during the day, anything I thought or felt I wanted to check in on what others thought about what I felt.
However, slowly I realized no one cared about what I thought or felt. I realized ME as a person didn't matter. I literally cried one night when I realized this. If I did or didn't log on, I wouldn't ever be missed. My thoughts/opinions never mattered. I ask questions, and only the same few respond. I stopped coming on here for a while, then I decided I really did enjoy learning. I didnt post, but I would read others posts and from those posts I learned.
I haven't made any friendships on here, but I have learned different teaching styles, read good advice, etc. I love coming on here to learn. However, I almost always erase my questions before posting, erase my advice and decide not to respond...because I always feel I will be criticized.
Just like we have someone in life who challenges us, we have that in forums. It might be more than one person, but I think we should all just try and work with one another. We are all here for an important reason, to learn more and be good teachers. We have something in common!
We all have lived very different lives. Not everyones life is peaches and cream, so when others post we need to just be open to answering the question.
They know when to keep quiet. :lol:
I do this ALL the time. I believe that out of 100 posts that I begin responding to or threads that I start, I end up erasing approximately 90 of them, not necessarily because I worry that I will be criticized, but that no one will care what I just wrote or respond to it.
Hugs! I like you!
lol thanks. I agree on the posts part. I open up over 20 windows sometimes of things I'm going to respond to, but realize its not needed. As for posts, I also realize either no one will respond or I end up tying too much that no one will even get what my question was lol. I tend to do that.
I'll be happy to jump in and give the first "male" perspective. The reason I've not responded sooner is because I've spent the entire day visiting the doctor and getting a CT scan 100 miles from home...so when I got back to the house tonight, I crashed. However, I DID spend much of my waiting time reading every post in this thread and the previous thread (which I had not read until today).
My thoughts and comments are this:
I'm not as outraged by the pending "prank" as many others were, but I do agree a fake spider would probably be a better choice. I also agree it is not a "prank" at all, but a clear case of desired revenge and Ms. I has admitted the act was her idea, but then tried to deny any involvement in it. If she and BF want to follow through, that's their business....I just think they both need to admit (to themselves) the real reason they are doing it and accept their own level of responsibility for dreaming up and executing the act. Whether they go through with it or not is irrelevant to me and will not change my opinion of Ms. I as a person and as a member of this forum.
I do agree that - if they truly are "done with dad" - the best way to send that message is simply walk away and cut off all contact. I did the same thing with my father's family several years ago after his mother and sisters tried to cheat him out of his share of the family property. His sisters ganged together to put him out of business and gave away (literally) the building he was using that he had built himself. They initiated all of this on the day my mom was scheduled to have her hysterectomy in a town 70 miles away. Long story short, we eventually ended ALL contact with the family for more than 10 years. NONE of them were invited to my wedding. My grandma saw my ex and I in Burger King shortly after our marriage. She came up and started crying about not being invited and how she would have loved to have been there. I just looked at her and said "You know WHY you weren't invited" and left it at that. After my first son was born, she called my house several times saying how much she wanted to see her grandson. I said "That's not gonna happen and, again, you know WHY it won't, so don't call here anymore. My answer isn't going to change."
Now, eventually, the mom and sisters DID make their peace with dad before he died and repaired a lot of the damage they did. I have taken all 3 boys to visit his mom since then and we've re-established ties with the sister that initiated and drove the whole incident. BUT, I would have been just as content to never speak to any of them again if they hadn't been the ones to reach out and try to make amends for what they did.
Sorry to get off-topic a bit. Just pointing out that I've also had experience with family members being very vindictive and, instead of wanting to "prank" them, I chose to simply sever all ties completely.
As for the issue of disrespect, I DO agree some of the comments directed at Ms. I were out of line and crossed over to personal attacks rather than "just trying to make a point". I (obviously) have no problem calling out any member here on an action or post I disagree with and explaining WHY I disagree with it. I also don't care how long that person has been a member; if I think they are wrong, I'm going to tell them so and explain why I think it's wrong. I'm also going to take parts of their posts I feel are hypocritical and highlight those in my own responses. Of course, I expect others to do the same towards me. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with what I say and I often learn more from those that disagree with me than those that agree. I always try to keep an open mind and view things from the other perspective, but everyone has certain issues or topics they feel more passionately about and I'm the same way. I always try to respond from an intellectual/analytical viewpoint, but some topics will still evoke a more emotional-based response from me. Even so, I still try to be respectful of the other person, even if I completely disagree with what they are saying.
I can disagree very strongly with someone, but STILL respect them as a person AND respect their opinion. One of my best r/l college friends and I are diametrically opposed on almost every issue (especially politics and religion), but we STILL manage to remain good friends despite our very strong opinions. The same is true here. Just because I disagree with something someone says or does, doesn't mean I dislike them as a person, it just means I dislike or disagree with that particular opinion or action.
When I joined my first social forum, there were lots of debate about religion there. Most of the discussions eventually degenerated into "flame-fests" full of name-calling and insults. It really offended me at first, but it also helped me realize how my own comments might sound to others, so I've always tried to make a conscious effort to remain respectful, even when disagreeing strongly. Of course, some people view a "strong disagreement" as being a "personal attack", and I try to keep that in mind as well.
I think everyone has a right to voice their opinion on forums like this and everyone has the right to have that opinion treated with respect, even when others don't agree with it. If I feel very strongly about something that has been said, I will type out my initial response, but then spend 30 minutes or more going over my comments and editing or deleting certain parts I feel are too inflammatory.
I always ask myself "How would I feel if someone else said this about me or my post?" If I wouldn't like how it makes me feel, I change it to something that addresses the comment without attacking the person. I think we should all do that, especially when it is an issue that generates a lot of emotion for us.
Jun 10, 2011
I don't meant to get off topic, but I hope everything is okay. I hate doctor visits, and getting tests done isn't any better. You're in my prayers.
Thanks for your male point of view. You mentioned how you read the posts while you waited...
I do that a lot. I read posts from my phone, and sometimes I respond to the post, because I am afraid I'll lose my train of thought. However, I panic after I send it, because my spelling and grammar is horrible. I've read my share of comments about not correcting our grammar, but I figure I don't care as much as I did when I started coming on here. I know that I have learned from many of you, and thats what matters the most. Whether I actually post or respond doesn't mean I don't read and learn.
I'm the same way about not posting certain things because if it's not perfect, there could be an attack on you as a teacher. I can say this board was not always like this. It used to be super supportive for teachers in all types of situations.
Now the way the board is today, if you do anything less than perfect, you will be called out on it. That is the one thing that is horrible here. I actually find myself jumping in threads just to (quietly or somewhat passively) defend or agree with the OP who I feel is getting slammed because they are not what some deem as the perfect teacher. No one here is perfect. We all have weak areas.
We can all learn from each other. A person shouldn't be branded as unprofessional, unmotivated, or being in teaching for the wrong reasons simply because they have a different teaching style, different opinions, or resigned, or did anything less than be National Teacher of the Year....no make that International Teacher of the Millennium.
That's the one thing that really bothers me when posters come here for help, they end up being attacked and made to feel less than the wonderful teacher they very well may be.
I chose this board originally for the vibe it put out. I have been to other boards where it was common practice to be called out on different topics. The posters seemed to enjoy it. It just wasn't my thing. I realize that boards evolve over time but I think the reason so many of us are upset is because this was a board we could go to for complete support. The culture of this board has changed.
An incident I went through this week made me think of this entire thread. Basically I have asked that the VP stay out of any meetings affecting my son. Due to unforeseen circumstances, she was in one of my meetings and I allowed her to stay. At the meeting, I appreciated that she publicly apologized to me, but she was clearly off the mark and I knew she didn't really "get it." I could have called her on it publicly. That would have not only embarrassed her but it would have made the people in the room uncomfortable and it would have likely made her twice as defensive (ie, not listen) because she would be backed into a corner. I also realized that my ultimate goal had been accomplished. She was not an active participant in the proceedings, which is what I wanted, but rather she was there to satisfy a legal requirement. My son's meeting, as a result, went much smoother and I was satisfied with the overall process. Did I really want to dig in and let her know that her comments were off target and some of them were even offensive? Yes I did. But I my ultimate goal was accomplished and ultimately that's what mattered.
So I thought about this thread. What is our true purpose here? Why do we come here? I think the culture is changing and people are coming for different reasons than they did before. For many of us, the purpose is support. It isn't about a single thread or a single dispute. It's about an overall feeling of a place to come and know that whatever you say, you are safe. There are times when it is much more appropriate to PM someone, ignore it or sometimes you just got to let it go. It's a free world and you can't force someone to agree with you no matter how much you want to. Furthermore, which is more important... a single topic, a single dispute, a single focus of disagreement or a place where we can all learn and receive support from each other? As for the assertion that we learn from these disagreements, umm... I believe that is true but I also believe we might be going overboard a bit these days and the effect is damaging what we cherished about the culture of these boards to begin with.
Now I'm a strong believer in standing up for what I believe in. As a deaf person, I have to be. I have to be in order for my son to get what he needs to succeed in school. I'm not arguing that it isn't important to stand up for what we believe in. I am arguing that sometimes there are better venues and better approaches than others.
I have not read all of the replies to this post but I'm glad it was brought up. The prank thread, like many other threads that are bashed, started out with a question. MOST of the responses did NOT answer the question. They just started bashing the OP.
You brought up a great point with your incident. If we disagree with someone in real adult life, we don't confront them in front of everyone in a meeting, lunch room, etc. We approach it on a one to one basis and we keep our cool. Why? Because we are professionals! I agree what others have mentioned, why can't we just address some issues through PM. I don't mind hearing the feedback, obviously it is one reason I come on here for. However, some of the comments do hurt feelings and I would rather speak to that person through PM on a one on one, so that I don't feel like I will forever be judged. That one person might be a frequent poster who many look up to and respect. I cannot compete with trying to explain my point of view, because everyone else respects others point of view a lot more than mine will ever count. No one is perfect, online or offline.
Personally, I don't think this has anything to do with the prank post, it is obviously how we all feel about numerous posts. Just saying...
Absolutely. My post has absolutely nothing to do with the prank post. I have been feeling this way for awhile.
I consider myself pretty much of a bystander on this forum. I participate once in a while, but mostly just read the threads.
I don't have any relationships or friendships with anyone on here.
Keep that in mind when you hear my perspective on this issue.
A person who posts on a professional teacher's forum and talks about doing something that most decent people would consider objectionable is doing so to get attention.
This person achieved her objective and received attention in a big way.
The response from other posters in no way undermines the culture of this forum. In fact, I feel it underscores the decency of the people on this forum.
I freely admit I'm one of the ones that will "call people out" when I think they are giving a bad argument or if I think they are getting a little too personal in their response to another poster. I do this for a number of reasons, but my primary purpose is to challenge the poster to think more critically about the response they are giving, especially when I think their post may be somewhat hypocritical compared to other posts they have made.
A good example is the recurring topic of corporal punishment. That is a very controversial topic and invariably brings accusations calling it abuse and/or "beating" the child. While I understand many feel very strongly against spanking, using corporal punishment in a controlled manner (limited number of strikes) and environment (witnessed by another teacher/staff member) is not the same as abusing or beating the child. Spanking also does not usually meet the state-designated definition of "abuse". That doesn't mean it is the best punishment or even appropriate, it just means that, by definition and practice, spanking is not the same as child abuse. So...when member call it abuse or beating, I'm going to challenge that and back my point up with data and statistics rather than the emotional response the issued brings up.
The same is true for other controversial topics. If I see someone making a comment that seems to contradict a position they have stated previously in other threads, I will point that out to show this situation isn't so different from the previous one where they took a completely different stance.
I also don't care at all if the poster is a long-term member with lots of friends that will jump in to their defense. Being popular doesn't make them right. In fact, I think most of us remember how many of the "popular kids" in school were also some of the meanest and would use their popularity to justify their actions. I don't think anyone here does that and I do have a lot of respect for all the posters here, even when I disagree with a certain viewpoint.
As for PM's, I rarely do that. I especially do not use PMs if I am going to challenge a post because I want everything I say to be out in the open for every member to see and respond to. There was a member on the first forum I joined that began a very nasty campaign against me after I challenged a post of hers criticizing former President GWB. One of the things she did was claim my "public" posts were a LOT different than the PMs I had been sending her....only problem is that I had not sent ANY PMs to her about the thread or her post, but I didn't have any real defense (other than her word against mine) that I wasn't saying nasty things to her behind the scenes. SO, I just post everything publicly as a matter of policy. That way, any member here can go back and check my comments for themselves if I'm accused of being mean, nasty or personal towards another member.
So, why do I feel the need to "challenge" other members? Maybe it is the testosterone factor, but I really love a good debate...and you can't have a good debate without opposing views. I also notice many people (myself included) tend to make either generic arguments or very generalized arguments to support our view, when the facts and data may not back us up. For instance, going back to corporal punishment, I personally feel it can be very effective in certain situations. I also feel (as do many of my colleagues) that kids today have no fear of consequences anymore like we did when we were in school. Of course, most research does NOT support that view and claims corporal punishment is ineffective and the long-term side effects outweigh the short-term benefits. I tend to think the research is skewed because almost every generation from mine on back would be saturated with child-abusers since we all got whippings as standard punishment in school, but the percentages don't bear that out. Still, regardless of my personal feelings on the topic, I have to acknowledge that the majority of research and statistics support the opposing view. I can choose to ignore such data, but that isn't professional. Instead, I realize I have to change my perspective and find other consequences that are more effective and can still be serious enough to make kids want to avoid them.
Finally, I realize that I am a male on a female-dominated forum, which is different from the other forums I visit. Most of them are either well-mixed or have more male members. So I have to remind myself most members here will have a different approach and reaction to comments and posts than I do, because men and women DO react in different ways to the same situations.
I really do respect everyone here and value EVERY opinion offered, even if my posts may not always reflect that. I also have no problem with members calling ME out when they think I'm in the wrong or have crossed the line. I hold myself to the same standard I expect from others and I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong.
I think it's important to remember and recognize in a situation like this that we all have the freedom of speech.
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
We all have the freedom of speech and we need to remember that. We are on an online site where our 'real' identity is anonymous and there are no real consequences. Whether you agree with the opinion, disagree with the opinion, or even think the opinion is disrespectful we have the right to express our opinion.
Yes, this forum has moderators who have a job to watch over this forum. However, this is not the job of everyone and many members have taken it upon themselves in many different threads to try to tell and call out other people about their behavior. This thread alone is an example of that. No one on this forum- except maybe the moderators- is in a position of power where their beliefs or standards are better than others and they will let everyone else know this. Starting this thread to demand an apology for another member is an example of that. We are allowed to express our opinion and we don't have to apologize for that just because one/some think it's disrespectful.
This is where we come in our free time to socialize, interact, relax, and enjoy. This is not our jobs and we are not being held to certain standards here. Some general members are trying to structure this forum in a more rigid, censored way where we have to all agree, support each other, be politically correct, and professional in every post in every thread.
On this forum- We are human, we have our rights, we are diverse, and we have beliefs that we will disagree on. That is just the way it is.
I realize I come across very strongly at times and possibly more strongly than some members here are accustomed to. Part of that is the nature of the other forums I've been on, which really isn't that much different, they just tend to have a larger number of male members than this site does.
I do respect the culture of this board and I feel I am very supportive of members when I feel they have been wronged in a situation. But there are times when I feel the member is as much responsible for the situation as the person or admin they are angry with (kinda like when one of our kiddos may say something about a classmate, then tell on the classmate when (s)he reacts to what was said) and I will point that out as well.
While I respect the culture here, that doesn't mean I'll sugar-foot around an issue just because I'm supposed to say something "nice" or not say anything at all. If I feel a member is wrong about something - and I feel strongly enough about the issue - then I will tell them that. You (and others) may see that as "digging my heels in", but I don't. I think any adult should be mature enough to hear "I think you're wrong" without getting their feelings hurt.
Well, I've tried to explain and illustrate exactly what kind of posts I will tend to call people out on and I do feel I can back up my viewpoint in each of those cases. Others may obviously disagree with that and that's fine. I can also link just as many posts where I've fully supported a member's position or opinion, sometimes when many other members did not agree with that member's viewpoint. So I feel I do uphold the caring and supportive environment here as well. I just don't do it with every post.
As for long-standing members....I don't have any "chip" against them at all, but several members here have commented they feel don't feel "safe" disagreeing with some of these members because of their long-standing. That also contradicts the "compassionate and supportive culture" that is supposed to exist here. It also implies some members may have a sense of entitlement that they should NOT be disagreed with because of their tenure here. That simply does not work for me. I don't care if it is the first person that joined the board, one that has dozens of friends or even a moderator (who is posting an a opinion on a topic rather than being in "mod mode"), if I don't agree with what they say, I'm going to post that and explain why I don't agree.
Actually, I've read and considered everything you and any other member has said to me. I truly do evaluate and RE-evaluate my perspective on issues all the time. If I came back and dug my ground, it's because your argument wasn't enough to convince me I was wrong. And, yes, I DO change my opinions if I'm given a good enough argument, even on subjects I feel strongly about. Over the years, I've changed my opinion on a different topics I felt very strongly about because someone gave me a strong enough argument to make me reconsider my position. Corporal punishment is one of those topics. Even though I still feel strongly that it can be an effective, and appropriate, consequence in certain situations, I realize those situations are very rare and the effectiveness is limited.
I don't mind you "calling me out" at all. I have a lot of respect for your perspective and a tremendous amount of respect for the obstacles you have overcome to achieve as much as you have. I think you are an inspiration to all of us and your comments don't change that a bit. I asked for it and you gave it. I respect you for that too. :thumb:
I'm confused as to why disagreement, or posting a differing opinion is now "calling out".
What's the old prayer? "O Lord, make my words tender and juicy today, for tomorrow I may have to eat them."
Jun 11, 2011
LUC, I agree, but only to a point.
It is indeed perfectly legal to exercise one's freedom of speech by saying exactly what one wishes to say in exactly the fashion one wishes to say it, others' sensibilities notwithstanding - but in doing just that, one risks being viewed as either immature or as overtly disrespectful.
It's a good idea to be reminded occasionally about the way our words come across when we're not face to face.
Yes and I encounter this daily at work. When I write a parent note about a child's bad behavior, I "pretend" that the note is being given to "me," about "my" child. Would it make me feel defensive, sad, confused, angry, defeated? If so, I change the wording and put some thoughtful tenderness with my words. We could do the same when posting on here.
"Soft words are hard arguments."
You do have a wonderful way of expressing yourself. I struggle with the right words, but this is what I mean! Thanks.
Disrespect (one viewing something as disrespectful) is actually subjective.
Remember the Golden Rule. Always think about the way you would like to be treated. This one step could sum up all the disrespectful behaviors around us.
Yes but at the same time we need to remember human nature and the fact that we are on the internet. I try to remind my students of this all the time when they talk about online forums or Xbox Live.
We don't techinically have to treat others the way we would like to be treated since this is online so there will never be any real life consequences. Anyone can go into a thread and use their freedom of speech and say whatever they want. Yes, some may use that to try to to hurt others feelings but what real consequences are there? The thread will get locked, or the post will get deleted, or they will be perceived as being rude, or they will be banned? Those are very light consequences when you think about the real world consequences that would occur if you walked up to someone and say something malicious. Does that make it 'right'? That is up for each individual to decide but we have to remember the parameters of this unique situation and stop trying to pretend that we're in a public place all physically together or a school setting.
We can say remember the golden rule or you may have to eat your words but that's not necessarily realistic advice for the online world. Truthfully that's not even great advice in the real world since we are living in such a diverse world with different cultures, standards, and people. How you want to be treated may be very different than how another wants to be treated. It's no one's job here (except the mods) to impose their standards of what is rude or how we should interact with each other on here. In fact, I actually consider those who try to impose their standards onto others rude and disrespectful.
This blog, just like the entire world, is diverse. We have different people of different sexes, races, religions, locations, cultures, etc all here to interact, learn, and socialize. We will have differing opinions and will not always agree. Sometimes certain personalities will clash. Sometimes threads will get heated. That is the beauty of this forum- all the different people will different opinions. Some will say and do things that you view disrespectful but that doesn't necessarily mean that those actions or words are disrespectful.
If everyone on this thread was beyond normally nice and supportive to each other and no one disagreed and everyone was the same then what would be the point? What would be the point if the mods and some self-righteous monitored each and every post to make sure that there is no disrespect, hurt feelings, difference of opinions? These situations are impossible and quite frankly scary. I'm glad that this thread isn't in a similar fashion to 1984.
And yes, I've been members and looked at some forums that we being strongly controlled and it felt that 1984.[/SIZE]
Supportive Atmosphere. The purpose of this forum is to provide encouragement, advice, support, enjoyment, and [insert positive word here]! It is a safe and friendly environment in which to share. The expectation is that visitors to the forums will be both professional and respectful. We won't always agree on everything, but it is expected that any disagreements stick to the issue and not attack anyone personally. Personal attacks may be removed from the forum and repeat offenders may be banned. If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it!
These words are found under forum rules.
Separate names with a comma.