Discipline and Admin

Discussion in 'General Education' started by ecteach, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. ecteach

    ecteach Devotee

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    Oct 27, 2019

    Here's the newest thing going around our county....

    Deal with all discipline issues IN THE CLASSROOM for these reasons:
    1. The child needs to be in the room learning.
    2. You lose your relationship and rapport with the child if you send them out.

    I don't agree with any of those things listed above. The child has already disrupted the learning environment if he/she is being sent out. What has happened to the days of being scared to death of the principal? We never were allowed to get hit/spanked, etc. But, every principal I ever had was mean as a snake. These days it really feels like the principals just don't want to be bothered.

    Is this a trend with y'all as well?
     
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  3. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

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    Oct 27, 2019

    This is definitely the trend around here. No one is learning when a kid is disruptive and acting out. Other than a handful of kids who learn the misbehavior is going to get some type of reward for the other kid at some point.
    They are putting tons of emotionally disturbed children in our classrooms and expecting us to deal with them and teach the others.
    2 yrs ago, it was insane for me. Half of my class was diagnosed w/ every imaginable diagnoses as well as 2 with reactive attachment disorder. To me, that is the toughest type of child. It is all about money.
    Consequences are really a bad word here. I wonder if some states or districts aren't a lot worse than others. When I first started, in a southern state teaching, I'd say, "Do you need to go to the P?" The kid would 99% of the time shape up. Now if you asked most kids, the P is their buddy. It has changed so much.
    I 1st saw it happen when parents wanted to be their kid's best friend instead of their parent. That is a big part of why schools have adopted that same attitude. I still feel like I am not your friend, I am your teacher. I like the kids, but I am not going to let them do whatever they want to be happy at that moment.
     
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  4. RainStorm

    RainStorm Phenom

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    Oct 27, 2019

    My favorite saying over the years to a disruptive child is "I love you too much to let you behave like this!'

    Then come the consequences... :)
     
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  5. Ima Teacher

    Ima Teacher Maven

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    Oct 27, 2019

    I agree that disruptive kids need to be removed, but I also know that some kids will disrupt just to get sent out. We have had teachers send kids out for minor things, and they could have been easily taken care of in the classroom.
     
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  6. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Oct 27, 2019

    I’ll weigh in from the admin side:
    There are two of us on the admin team: my boss and me. We deal with all discipline issues. There are times when each of us has 5-6 students in our offices; therefore, the cases must be triaged. We handle everything from students melting down/blowing up in the classroom (knocking over desks, threatening kids, and making inappropriate sexual gestures toward his teacher) to students being referred to the office for refusal to complete class work. Last week, for example, I was dealing with a threat assessment (student had a note that listed how he’d kill himself). Waiting outside my office was a student who was sent my his teacher for spitting on another 1st grader. I sent him with a note to his teacher letting her know that I’d get to him later that day or the next. Thankfully, she saw a cop car and knew that we were dealing with a major issue (the suicidal student was 5150’d).

    The issues I’m dealing with as an administrator have become ultra involved and time-consuming. I never dreamed I’d be handling these types of things at the elementary level. Never.
     
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  7. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    Oct 27, 2019

    One of the silliest ones I’ve seen is a teacher send a student with an office referral that stated, “(Insert student’s name) did not bring his book bag for the 2nd time”. This particular student is a 5 year old kiddo in kindergarten.

    I felt like picking up the phone and asking, “Well, what the h*** do you want ME to do about it???” LOL!!!!!
     
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  8. waterfall

    waterfall Maven

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    Oct 27, 2019

    Yes, this is the general trend, but some admins I've had were better than others. The admin at my previous school, which was a dumpster fire, said exactly your points there plus that students found the office "fun" and enjoyed the attention they got there. If you're the P and you realize kids think going to you for discipline is "fun," then it's YOUR job to change that. Yes, 100% used as an excuse to not have to deal with any issues. They also spoke of "not taking away teacher's power to do their own classroom management" (RUN if anyone ever says this to you in an interview) but wouldn't allow us to give any consequence at all. We weren't allowed to take away any privilege. The only thing we were allowed to do was call parents, which is stupid because it puts all of the pressure of doing something on the parent. Most parents either didn't see the behavior as a problem or didn't know how to deal with it/had similar issues at home.

    In recent years, it's been all about "restorative practices" here. Previous admin at my current school bought into that and similar practices 100%. I truly believe my last P was trying her best and thought she was doing the right thing- the counselor and psych had her convinced they were "helping kids with mental health rather than just punishing them." The behavior was INSANE. All of the time. Truly an "inmates running the asylum" type of situation.

    New P came in and put a stop to much of that. We still do PBIS and restorative practices, but we ALSO do consequences and severe behaviors are not tolerated. Students who have legitimate mental health issues get a ton of support, and if they do not improve, they are sent to appropriate placements. Previous P felt this was "throwing kids away," which is absurd. Don't get me wrong, we still deal with a ton of social/emotional issues and our admins are very busy with this. But it is 1,000x better than it used to be and it's nice to even just feel supported.

    My room is across the hall from our self-contained Autism program, which is new this year. The other day one of the students got really violent, got out of a restraint and punched the teacher in the face. My P was in there immediately trying to figure out what to do and saying it was never okay for a teacher to get hit. IMO 90% of Ps would say to a self-contained teacher, "Well, that's just the population you chose to work with."
     
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  9. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Connoisseur

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    Oct 27, 2019

    That is frustrating. In my other school, we were not allowed to send kids out at all—which made it hard. We could only call admin.

    At my new school, we can send kids out but I have not had to. I personally am going to try my best to not send anyone to the office because I want the kids to listen to me, not just admin. But I also understand that sometimes you have to send them out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
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  10. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

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    Nov 2, 2019

     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  11. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Nov 2, 2019

    Eh...

    I actually believe in handling many misbehaviors in the classroom. I think it does strengthen the teacher-student relationship.

    But this only is legitimate if the administration is willing to tackle the big problems.
     
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  12. otterpop

    otterpop Aficionado

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    Nov 2, 2019

    I've experienced a principal who had the attitude described in the OP. That principal left and the new principal allows students to be sent to the office but only when really needed and documented.

    Behavior got terrible under the old principal's leadership. Students had no fear of consequences whatsoever.

    With the new principal, students now have a somewhat healthy fear of getting sent to the office. Solely having them know it can happen helps with behavior. I don't send students to the office hardly ever, but when they know it's a possibility they are slightly more motivated to not majorly cross the line I do believe.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
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  13. Koriemo

    Koriemo Comrade

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    Nov 3, 2019

    I'm at a new school this year, and though it's similar in many ways to my last school, the student behavior management is so much better. We have two APs who deal with behavior in classrooms. When a student is being disruptive, instead of sending them out of the classroom, one of the APs comes into the classroom. The teacher has the authority to say, "Deal with the rest of the class while I deal with this behavior problem" OR "You deal with this behavior problem while I deal with the rest of the class." The APs are fantastic about letting the classroom teacher make this call. So, they keep it in the classroom, but support the teacher. There is a balance of consequences and incentives, too.
     
  14. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Connoisseur

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    Nov 3, 2019

    That's great! I agree that we should try to deal with it in class. But if a student continues to disrupt the learning of other students and we've tried a bunch of strategies, we should be able to ask for support.
     
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  15. MrsC

    MrsC Multitudinous

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    Nov 3, 2019

    I rarely involve admin unless behaviours are dangerous or when disruptive and defiant behaviours persist. My admin knows that they are a last resort for me, so they tend to take it seriously when I refer students to them. Because I don't involve admin often, the students usually know that when I do they have gone much too far.
     
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  16. Tired Teacher

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    Amen to that!
     
  17. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

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    I very seldom used admin over the years in discipline. I sent them more for documentation. ( CYA - dangerous or if someone gets hurt.) So if I am forced to send 1 for disrupting class, I'd appreciate them getting read the riot act.
    P's used to be really good about this IF you didn't send kids down for trivial infractions. Now it just doesn't happen. It is like something slipped into our schools that wiped out any consequence. Especially for sped kids.
     
  18. Tired Teacher

    Tired Teacher Cohort

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    Wow! Do you mind telling your state? I am impressed w/ the common sense shown by your admin. You are VERY fortunate. Stay at that school! :)
     
  19. Ms.Holyoke

    Ms.Holyoke Connoisseur

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    Nov 4, 2019

    I also have to say that there are steps that admin can take that make it easier for teachers to manage behavior in the classroom.

    -My last school had 30+ students per class because of a schedule that the principal loved which divided the students into 3 groups for math and ELA instead of 4. This made it difficult for one teacher to manage behavior (especially as a first year teacher.)

    -We were not allowed to send kids into the hallway ever. I never understood this. Kids go to the bathroom unsupervised...why can't they go wait in the hallway for one minute? I did this once and I was told that I can't let a student wait outside unsupervised. I have done this this year when students have made disrespectful comments and it has really helped and I could handle the situation myself. Last year, I really did not know what to do when I had a kid who continued to disrupt...I couldn't send him out and I did not have any empty seats to move him to. Even now, I feel like I have better classroom management and I'm not sure what I would do in this situation!

    -We could not set up any incentive systems or team-wide systems since we did not have grade level teams. We could do a class incentive system but we couldn't "waste" instructional time. At my new school, we have an incentive afternoon that we set up every quarter and that the principal doesn't even need to approve. This again helps the students listen to us as the authority, not just admin!
     
  20. MrTempest

    MrTempest Companion

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    Nov 7, 2019

    In some states, educational codes dictate you must document among other things anytime a student is removed from the classroom. It may be admin's way of CYA for the school since they may not want to ask the teachers to document the issue, and flat out, they may really just not want any type of negative documentation.
     
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