Deduction For Late Work

Discussion in 'General Education' started by mariecurie, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. mariecurie

    mariecurie Companion

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    What, in your opinion, is a reasonable percent deduction for late work for a middle school science student?

    I'm thinking 10% per day, but is that too harsh?
     
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  3. HistTchr

    HistTchr Habitué

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    I always did 10% per day. This year, I revised my policy to 5% per day. This is going to be our new school-wide policy, as well. (The maximum penalty will be 20%.)
     
  4. dgpiaffeteach

    dgpiaffeteach Aficionado

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    Our late works for junior high and high.

    If a student doesn't turn in an assignment, s/he is sent to homework intervention. HWI is after school from 3:05-4. They can choose to go that day or the day after. Other circumstances must be approved by the P. They sign in at HWI and complete the assignment. They then turn it in for 70% credit (D-). If they skip HWI, they are given a Saturday school.
     
  5. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    I agree with that. That is my policy and also the policy of our 6th, 7th, and 8th grade teachers at the school I work at.
     
  6. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    I worked at a school (high school) where the penalty was 10 points per day school-wide. We all agreed to it at the start of the year. Within a month we all noticed several children, like 50% of our students that would voluntarily take the deduction because something better was going on. Something like ice skating or a tv show. I taught a subject that required homework almost every night for practice and as a school we tried to be more project-based than test-based.

    We decided to change the deduction to 20 points per day late and immediately the students started turning things in on time. I very rarely had late assignments after that.
     
  7. TeachingNTX

    TeachingNTX Rookie

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    So a student can be 3 weeks late with a project and if fabulous get an 80%? Why did your school decide to lessen the penalty for late work? Curious because it seems the students are being set up for failure later in life.
     
  8. HistTchr

    HistTchr Habitué

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    We moved away from the 10% deduction because the final grade the student earned (with the late penalty) did not reflect understanding of the material. For example, if a student turned in a A+ (100) paper four days late, he/she would end up with a grade of C- (70) for that assignment. A C- doesn't truly reflect that student's achievement--it is more an indicator of his/her behavior. (I guess this really comes down to what your school sees as the purpose of a grade, and what types of factors are included in a student's grade.)

    My school uses citizenship grades. We give them every quarter. Students who chronically turn in late work will receive lower citizenship grades, for which a certain standard is required for graduation. So, there still is a penalty, but it isn't as severe in the actual academic grade the student earns. We have been doing a lot of PD related to Rick Wormeli's work, and he makes a strong case for limiting the point deduction on late work.

    http://www.asdk12.org/middlelink/Inter/mosaic/LateWork_RickWormeli.pdf
     
  9. HistTchr

    HistTchr Habitué

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    After four days, the assignment is sent to a grade recovery program, where a student must work with a tutor after school to do the missing work. Students are unable to get credit on the assignment unless it is turned into us from the person who runs that program. So, rather than a greater point deduction, the penalty is a time inconvenience, since students need to do it after school and have it ok'd by that teacher before it ever comes back to the classroom teacher. This is the third or fourth year we are using this program. Students would much rather turn in work on time than have to stay after school to complete it in order to get credit!
     
  10. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    That same student that is smart but doesn't see value in the projects or other assignments in school so they don't bother can be perfectly fine later on in life. They may be perfectly on time for other things but given that school is a mandatory situation with no option for choice, some of these same students who are not learning the "life lessons" that are being shoved down their throats via punishment, might very well do just fine when they are making their own decisions later. Funny thing, they may even decide further education and decide to turn in assignments because it isn't mandatory.

    Adults always have a choice even when it doesn't seem like a good one. They can quit a job if they job doesn't suit them. It comes with consequences, but they still have the freedom to do so. They know they can look elsewhere, change careers, start a business, etc. I don't think we realize how mandatory education and rigid policies impact some personalities. There are only 2 places in life where there is no escape, military and prison. Once in you are in until the term is up. Well, military you can get yourself kicked out and I guess a student can get himself expelled, but the student then has to find another school because students must be educated until a certain age.

    Often rigid and unwavering punishment policies do nothing but encourage more of the behavior.
     
  11. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I like this method. The student still must learn. They have someone to help guide, and they can still get decent credit for the assignment.

    Areas for abuse are still there for some assignments though. A student can be given a lower grade on an objective assignment by someone that wants to give that extra punishment. It seems all must be on board for this approach and be highly ethical.
     
  12. HistTchr

    HistTchr Habitué

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    I completely agree! When we first started this program, there was definitely a lack of buy-in from teachers who thought we were coddling the kids too much. It has definitely improved as we have worked out some of the rough spots.
     
  13. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    It comes down to what is the ultimate responsibility of the school if one has to be chosen over the other: academic learning or social compliance. I find giving students the help, guidance, and the tools to learn and a lot of support will most often result in more independent learning than constant punishment. I don't mean to imply that I mean no responsibility to learning at all, but your method requires that they do the work. The learning isn't abandoned to teach the lesson of social compliance.
     
  14. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    Right.

    Too many kids would rather take a 0 than do a difficult project. Any system has to include a way of ensuring that every kid actually does the work.... that he doesn't opt out because the maximum grade he can now receive isn't worth the work the project would entail.
     
  15. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    Our students don't get that choice. If a child doesn't do their assignment they still have to do the assignment or project, they must stay after school for 1 hr./day (30/min. day grades 1-4) until it is finished. Allowing students to not do their work is setting them up for failure. In my job, I can't not do report cards and take a cut in pay. In the real world, all work must be done and it should be the same in school.

    They do get 10% off per day they are late as well.
     
  16. dave1mo

    dave1mo Comrade

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    Students always have choices.
     
  17. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I was specifically talking about mandatory education. We see what choices students make when forced to comply to this mandate.

    Please show me a choice that a student has to not be educated when they are under a certain age. Every choice will still come back to having to be in some sort of school whether it is public, private, homeschool, or prison school.

    Thinking about it some more. You are right. They can choose to run away and keep running had hopefully not get caught.
     
  18. mariecurie

    mariecurie Companion

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    What can I do if my school doesn't have a system like this? Can I set something up in my own classroom that removes the late penalty while still teaching them the responsibility of turning work in on time?

    I decided on 5% per day late, maximum 20% deduction. Of course this doesn't apply to any student with an IEP that requires extra time for assignments.
     
  19. TeachingNTX

    TeachingNTX Rookie

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    I like this policy. Time definitely is important to our students.
     
  20. chebrutta

    chebrutta Enthusiast

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    Wow. I really wish a grade recovery system would work at my school! That sounds really helpful.

    As it is, I don't accept class work or homework late. Projects/essays/summatives are 10% off per day late.

    One thing I'm working on is putting my assignments in the online grade book ahead of time so that parents can see when things are due. I'm also sending home reminders through the messaging system within the grade book.

    We'll see how things go. This particular group is notorious for not doing HW/projects and then attempting to turn everything in the last day of the quarter.
     
  21. HistTchr

    HistTchr Habitué

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    Can you do something like "mandatory extra help" after school during your office hours? One of my retired colleagues used to do that.
     
  22. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

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    What is the point of giving an assignment? Is it to teach the content or responsibility? What is a grade supposed to reflect? Compliance or learning?

    Answer those and I think you'll have your answer on how much to penalize late work.
     
  23. dave1mo

    dave1mo Comrade

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    False dichotomies are intellectually disingenuous.
     
  24. RadiantBerg

    RadiantBerg Cohort

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    Thanks for pointing this out dave1mo. Rockguykev is off base.
     
  25. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I actually do think that this is something worth considering. I don't know that the answer will be completely black and white, but this should be part of the discussion.

    I struggle with late work and penalties for late work. I believe that the student's grade should reflect mastery. Taking away points for behavior or citizenship issues doesn't seem fair. At the same time, I can't justify giving the same grade to both the student who completed his work on time and the student who turned in work three months after the due date. I don't know what the answer is.
     
  26. RadiantBerg

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    Right because of there were no penalty then why even have a due date?
     
  27. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

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    Then why have due dates at all? Why have seating assignments or heck, even ask them to sit? Why have classroom rules? Are we teaching content or compliance?

    I teach compliance with every single procedure, rule or assessment I give. Our job is to prepare students for life, not just some some random moment that they may need to know who proposed the New Deal.

    I have no compunction at all at deducting points for late work any more than I would have at assigning detention for cursing someone out. Completing assignments is a requirement just as clearly as respecting others or not having a cell phone is.
     
  28. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Of course we teach compliance. The question is should we grade compliance?

    If I'm an admissions officer and I'm looking at a student's transcript, I want to know that the A appearing next to AP Calc means that this student really understands AP Calc. I would not want to find that the student has a novice level of understanding of Calc but is really great about turning in homework on time.
     
  29. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    I believe Standardized Tests assess (although not perfectly by any means) how students have mastered certain standards. Grades better show how students apply themselves on a daily basis as far as content and skill knowledge, but also meeting deadlines, and taking the time to do quality work. In the real world, deadlines and preparation count for a lot. I feel we need to prepare students for that world.
     
  30. RadiantBerg

    RadiantBerg Cohort

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    Right, but the question is would you want a student to have an A there if the student never turned in work on time, but did really understand AP Calc. I think knowledge will only get students so far in the world...they need responsibility.
     
  31. dave1mo

    dave1mo Comrade

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    If I'm looking at a student's GPA and see a 4.0, I want to know that means they had the discipline to get through a rigorous course of study that includes making deadlines, since they'll be expected to do that in college.

    I would not want to find that the student mastered the content but doesn't have the basic competencies necessary to turn in assignments on time.
     
  32. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    This is why I support an assessment-only grading model. Turning in work on time or not would not be a factor.

    I completely agree that responsibility is important, perhaps even more important than content knowledge. Even so, the report card says "English 12", not "Responsibility". Citizenship grades, recommendation letters, resumes....Those things are going to show how responsible a student is. The grade needs to reflect whether the content was mastered and to what extent.
     
  33. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I disagree with you on this point. I see where you're coming from, though, and I suspect that many/most teachers share your position on the matter.
     
  34. RadiantBerg

    RadiantBerg Cohort

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    But assessments should take different forms. They are not just test and quizzes. They can be projects, labs, journals, or other activities. Some students don't do well on timed tests and quizzes so giving them other venues allows this knowledge to be demonstrated in other ways. Of course these other venues require deadlines. This would be particularly important in an English class where papers play a huge role.
     
  35. dave1mo

    dave1mo Comrade

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    My job title says, "Teacher," not "Turner-In-Of-Paperwork-On-Time."
     
  36. readingrules12

    readingrules12 Aficionado

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    Caesar, wouldn't you admit that content knowledge for an AP class would be measured by the AP test? This takes off the burden of making the grade in class only about tests. It allows for the quality of the work of assignments and projects to also count.
     
  37. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Sure. There are other classes besides AP, though.
     
  38. Brendan

    Brendan Fanatic

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    I see both sides of this as a teacher, administrator, and parent. This year our school has decided to make homework turn-in and turning things on time a small 5 or 10% of our students quarterly grades. All assignments that are turned in to be checked for completion are placed here, and anything taken up and graded is also given a grade here. It's a simple you 100 if you have it 0 if you do not. Everyone gets three freebies a semester. It's really easy to compute, all I do number of assignments turned in divided by total.
     
  39. krysmorgsu

    krysmorgsu Cohort

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    While I can support the idea that a grade should show content mastery and not whether work was completed on time, isn't that why most of us set our grades up to be x% for tests and quizzes. Unless my grade is horribly skewed with say 25% tests and 75% homework, I would think that the percentage I assign to tests would be high enough to make the grade a reflection of it. Sure, sometimes I will get students who test poorly but are on top of everything else, so heir grade may be a little inflated, so to speak, but it would not jump from a C to an A. As far as deducting for late assignments, I do think it is important to have consequences. While in some subjects late assignments may not matter as much, I would say that in the least for math, some sciences, and languages it is vital that students complete material on time. If I am teaching a concept, I assign homework not as busy work but to allow students to practice with that concept. The hope is that through the hw, the student can clarify the concept and identify any confusions they still have. If they don't complete the hw, often they are not strong in the concept. I can only think of 1 student I have had that chronically does not complete hw and projects and can still ace my tests. Most students can't do that. I should point out, too, that this particular student has a learning disability, and while he has never been diagnosed as such, I suspect him to have some form of Asperger's.
     
  40. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    I understand where you are coming from, but at what cost do we teach this compliance? Do we choose a more convenient method for teachers (and students sometimes) by saying if you don't have the work turned in by a specific deadline you get a zero which is a big way of dealing with it in our school or do we come up with a less convenient system that still requires the work to be done even if it isn't done within the initial timeframe? The former allows students not only allows students/teachers say forget the learning, I won't bother where the other options does more to ensure that the main intent of public education is still part of the chosen method of trying to get students to learn the required academics.

    It would be great if there was a study that showed how much those failing grades really sparked a fire under the students and caused them to start handing in work, but much of the times the students that are subject to zeros as the method of teaching them responsibility just don't bother to do any better. They tend to give up. It rarely inspires intrinsic motivation.

    Like it or not, society as a whole in the United States is significantly different than it used to be. The pride in doing a good job is gone. Looking for ways around things is more common than doing things the right way. So, we would love to provide the easy method of just fail them, but if this is the only place in society that this method is used, it just isn't going to work for most kids. Most will just take the attitude they will deal with whatever comes later.

    We used to hope when kids received the failing grade their parents would punish them severely or we wouldn't worry too much because there were jobs for those kids that were not academically successful for whatever reason. These kids always existed, they just tended to drop out earlier. Now many will stay because what else is there to do? So, our methods have to deal with the society we have. If 160 students out of 170 are failing, failing them all won't really make a difference with the kids.
     
  41. krysmorgsu

    krysmorgsu Cohort

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    My school started this for marking period grades last year. We have students who also figure out exactly what they need the first 2 marking periods to pass, then don't bother the rest of the year.
     

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