Debate time! Should teachers be armed in order to protect their students?

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Caesar753, Jun 22, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    27

    Jun 22, 2014

    :yeahthat:

    I've long suspected that many of the students sitting in the desks in front of me carry enough fire-power to ward off any school intruder. :lol:
     
  2. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,858
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 22, 2014

    And quite often the "bad guys" in school shootings are children themselves-I personally could never live with myself if I was responsible for the death of a child, even if there were extenuating circumstances.

    There is a huge difference between a police officer and a teacher-as others have said officers use their training every day. I was trained once in CPR-I'm not sure I would actually have the confidence to use it in an emergency.
     
  3. 4815162342

    4815162342 Companion

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    13

    Jun 22, 2014

    I wouldn't probably actually carry one to work in a school, just because of the liability/issue of "what if" a child actually got a hold of it. I definitely agree with the points from everyone.

    But... does anyone here carry a gun otherwise? I'm just curious if you're against it all around, or just in the school/work setting. I don't want to be the typical Texas stereotype, lol, but my bf carries one to his work, and just about anywhere we go. Concealed though, not like he's got a huge rifle slung across his back as we shop in Krogers. He's a former Marine, so I totally trust that he knows what to do, should a situation ever happen.
     
  4. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Jun 22, 2014

    I don't carry a gun and have no desire to ever do so.
     
  5. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,016
    Likes Received:
    38

    Jun 22, 2014

    I don't carry a gun for many reasons. However, I do carry a taser and pepper spray (or whatever the legal equivalent in my state is. It's down in my car, but I don't think it's actually pepper spray) for personal protection. I would never be willing to even carry those in a classroom though.
     
  6. HistoryVA

    HistoryVA Devotee

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,016
    Likes Received:
    38

    Jun 22, 2014

    :agreed:

    I also believe some of my students are carrying weapons. Enough get caught each year to make it likely.

    I've often wondered what would happen if a school shooting was attempted in an inner-city school.
     
  7. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    5,621
    Likes Received:
    5

    Jun 22, 2014

    The trouble with the idea that police officers use their training in the use of deadly force every day is that it's patently untrue. Most officers go years, and even their entire careers, without pulling their weapons, let alone firing them. Additionally, police work, while dangerous at times, is not as routinely dangerous as the general public believes.

    While by no means comprehensive, a recent report by the NYPD showing the data of police-involved shootings sheds some light on the subject. According to the "2011 Firearms Discharge Report",
    "There were, on average, 34,565 uniformed officers employed by the NYPD in 2011. Of them, only 62—0.18 percent—intentionally discharged a firearm at a subject."​
    (page 33) Additionally, NYPD responded to 4 Million calls in 2011. Of these calls, 20,000 involved weapons: that's 0.5% of all the calls the officers responded to, or one out of every two hundred calls. The full report can be found here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downlo...ypd_annual_firearms_discharge_report_2011.pdf

    The majority of a police officer's day is not spent confronting suspects or responding to crimes in progress. Police officers spend their days responding to traffic accidents, investigating crimes already committed, doing paperwork, engaging in public outreach programs, and patrolling, among other non-dangerous duties. Additionally, this particular report was from NYC, a city known for its violent crime rate. Smaller departments, departments in less violent cities, and departments specialized to school districts (and school resource officers), will have even lower numbers than NYC's already low rates.

    Now granted, that data only includes the use of weapons, either by the police or the suspects. Another study that attempted to quantify the danger of the job looked at traffic stops. The American psyche is fully convinced that a police officer is in extreme danger during a routine traffic stop. After all, it's a big deal when a traffic stop goes wrong, and the story is plastered across the internet and the evening news. The problem is, of course, that the data doesn't support that notion. In The Journal of Criminal Justice, Illya D. Lichtenberg and Alisa Smith analyze the data comparing the total number of traffic stops in the US to the number of bad outcomes over a ten year period. They found the "danger ratio" of a police officer being assaulted during routine traffic stops to be, on average, 1 in 10,256 traffic stops. Doing the math, that means that a police officer has a 0.00976% chance of a bad outcome every time he or she pulls somebody over. That's not a very substantial risk. The full study can be found here: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/Criminal Procedure in American Society/OfficersAssaulted.pdf

    Now, that's not to say that the police don't have a dangerous job. They do, but they're definitely not facing life or death situations every day, so the idea that a police officer is inherently more qualified to use a weapon in a life-threatening situation simply because of his job doesn't stand up to facts. Instead, what makes a police officer qualified to assess the need for, and to use deadly force is his constant, ongoing and intense training. This training absolutely could be duplicated for anybody willing to undergo it.

    Another issue to consider is that many of the responses have been "I'd never want to carry a gun to teach". I don't believe that's the nature of this discussion. The question wasn't "Should every teacher be forced to carry a gun?" It was "Should any teacher be allowed to carry a gun?" These are two very different questions.
     
  8. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Jun 22, 2014

    My daughter is 2 years old. She will start kindergarten in the 2017-2018 school year. If I walked in on the first day and her teacher was carrying a gun, I'd walk out the door and never take her back.

    I'm also not sure you're really taking into account the fact that those numbers are still far more common than a teacher. If we consider each student day present to be roughly equivalent to a traffic stop interaction in terms of having a weapon, then a school of 700 kids would have 135,800 interactions in a year (even without considering parents/other adults coming in to the school). At the same rate of 1 in 10,256, that would mean an average school would have 13 teacher assaults per school year. Now... how many schools with 700 kids have 13 teachers get assaulted every year?
     
  9. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    5,621
    Likes Received:
    5

    Jun 22, 2014

    More than you might think, since assault is defined fairly loosely and can include mundane things such as throwing a pencil, spitting, slapping, shoving and other actions not likely to cause real harm. One of the weakness of the traffic stop study I posted (and there were several weakness, by the way), is that it included such a weak definition of "assault".

    So again, we're down to the only difference being training. What makes a police officer inherently more special than anybody else with identical training? So far, the only responses to the question have relied on emotion and perception, and not actual fact.
     
  10. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Jun 22, 2014

    Police officers are inherently dealing with people that in some way broke the law. Teachers deal with children. I consider it almost offensive to compare the risk factor of the two. Maybe I'd feel differently if I worked with older students, or in a more dangerous city, but I'd be absolutely appalled to see any person wearing a gun in my school, and I can guarantee that it would make my school a worse, less successful building.
     
  11. Jerseygirlteach

    Jerseygirlteach Groupie

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 22, 2014

    Respectfully, I disagree. The exact question was:

    Should teachers be armed in order to protect their students?

    Either by force or not, I believe it is a question of whether it is our responsibility as teachers to arm ourselves to protect our students. If that is the question, my answer is still unequivocally no. There's a whole lot I am responsible for in terms of protecting my students and I am happy to do it. I will not carry a gun and potentially shoot people. Not now, not ever.
     
  12. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,732
    Likes Received:
    957

    Jun 22, 2014

    I'm not against guns in general, but I wouldn't want teachers to be allowed carry them in schools. I would just feel uncomfortable with the thought that what if they have to use it, would they make the right decision? If they shot the intruder could they live with it?
    And then the accidents: what if they accidentally shot a student? What if a student go into her desk and got the gun, and all the other 'what if"s.


    However, all the school shootings are increasing every year and something must be done, I just don 't know what.
    We have 2 armed probation officers at school, I think I'll leave the gun business up to them,. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if my principal had a gun at school, she used to be a probation officer and it could be approved for her to have one, and it would make sense. But I might be wrong.
     
  13. 4815162342

    4815162342 Companion

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    13

    Jun 22, 2014

    I could definitely live with shooting/killing someone who was trying to murder innocent children.
    Just the same as I would live with shooting someone who was attacking my family via a home invasion or car jacking or whatever.

    The other thing is, I don't think the teachers would necessarily be "wearing" the guns out in the open. As I stated earlier, I get the points of not wanting teachers having the guns at school (and I'd probably never do it myself) but what if you never know they even have one?
     
  14. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,249
    Likes Received:
    785

    Jun 22, 2014

    If you put a gun in a room with 30 children... the children will eventually know it's there, no matter how well you hide it.
     
  15. 4815162342

    4815162342 Companion

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    13

    Jun 22, 2014

    So just for the love of debate, if you found out mid year that your daughter's teacher, who you both adore, was bringing a gun with her (or him) to school each day, would you pull your daughter out of the class?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. Ms.Holyoke,
  2. gr3teacher,
  3. vickilyn
Total: 443 (members: 5, guests: 413, robots: 25)
test