Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by queenie, Jul 29, 2011.
Jul 30, 2011
That seems uncalled for. I have no idea why that was even brought up.
Free education means the students do not have to pay to use the building or pay the salaries of the teachers. It does not mean students do not pay for their own basic tools.
I'd imagine that a large number of those students that cannot pay for school supplies are also getting free medical care. Does the state pay for their gas to drive to the doctor's appointment?
My paying for student supplies will stop this year. I will get penny sale items only. I'm really tired of telling my own children to wait until the 3" binder goes on sale or the backpack gets marked down so I can better afford them. Only to walk into my classroom each day and face children with iPhones (which I cannot afford) who drive their own car (which my 17 year old does not have) who complain about the free lunch not tasting worth a darn.
A smart shopper could get everything he/she would need for my class for less than $2. A not-so-smart shopper (or maybe one that doesn't have access to the penny sales, Goodwill, etc.) could spend less than $5 and have all they need.
Now, there are things I *want* my students to have and use. I want them to have ledger sized paper for some activities and thinking maps. I want them to have yeast and juice to see what happens with fermentation. I think these things help with learning and will ultimately make my job easier. I am willing to spend some money on these items myself throughout the year. These things go beyond basic student supplies and they can be dropped if I don't feel like buying it all down the road.
Very well said.
And I don't remember my parents ever thinking that a free education meant that I got free pencils, paper, backpack, folders, notebooks, etc.
Luckily we can ask parents for whatever we want to here. If I couldn't my students would not have kleenex to use. There would be a lot of red noses from the brown paper towel roll.
Kleenex is my biggie. I'm NOT buying any more this year. I will have some for me at my desk. I will encourage the students to bring their own mini-packs. I will buy plenty of those small packs for my own children.
Kleenex is expensive. Crazy expensive. And students seem to think that they can pull out four or five tissues at a time. I've been told that the school will no longer provide us with the boxes that they have in the past. Ok. I will not either. Kids can get up and get a brown paper roll or they can bring their own.
I had one student who would bring a box to class every day. She would put it up front when she walked in and then she'd take the box back on her way out, lol.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was put off by that comment.
In my experience with undocumented immigrants, they value education highly and want to do whatever they can to help their child succeed. I have tutored kids and received not money but food (delicious, delicious food) in return. When I tutored those kids, they provided the paper, pencils, what we needed. It was only when I tutored extremely upper class children that they expected me to provide all of the materials, and drive the kids to and from wherever to tutor, etc. Working with ESOL populations in Florida, I knew a large number of undocumented children, or children with undocumented parents. Most of them did pay taxes, just not necessarily on a valid social security number. They also had to pay sales taxes like everyone else. It's a common misconception that undocumented individuals get a free ride. It's simply not true.
Here, most school funding comes from property taxes. Sadly, in public schools here, a majority of the students (and I'm talking legal status) live in apartments or government-provided housing, so their families don't pay "school tax" anyway. The people who own the most of the property send their kids to private school.
We are allowed to ask students for supplies, but whatever we ask for, we need to be able to supply if the kids can't. That's why in high school I ask for a notebook, something to write with, and something to write on. Everything else I get a class set during the penny sales or from Wal-Mart.
I've never had anything fall down once I put them up with these strips. Our school turns off the air/heat on weekends, too, so those who use ticky tack or tape often find their posters on the floor every Monday morning...
So glad that we have drywall that I can just put staples in.
....I use this argument all the time .... :thumb:
I teach high school, so I've never really encountered the supply list issue. When I get supplies at the back to school sales, I always pick up a bunch of extra $0.50 notebooks because I'd end up with a good handful of kids who didn't have a notebook and were always trying to borrow paper. Pencils and things, I buy a cheap pack of 50, and when those run out, I just collect the ones that are left on my floor and recycle them I doubt if I made a supply list, anyone would actually get it.
As far as ridiculous rules... my last school was full of them, but the very best one was that we could not have food or drink in any classroom (even teachers, even water). I was scolded for bringing a cup of soup into my classroom, during lunch time. Everyone flipped out and complaints were filed at the district. Suddenly, the rule was a big "misunderstanding" that 200 teachers "heard wrong."
That may be common sense but it is not the law in California. We can't require kids to bring notebooks, pencils, or any supplies. On top of that, even extracurricular activities are no longer allowed to charge a fee - no uniform fees for sports teams, supply fees for art classes, etc. etc. It really puts the burden on teams and clubs to fundraise which I think is more difficult for many parents than simply paying a fee or buying the supplies. It is a mess.
I could not imagine high school teachers having to provide any of the basic supplies for students. I had to have all of my own supplies. If i did not show up with a pencil, some teachers had broken ones we could use, sometimes we could buy pencils from teachers, or try and borrow one from a friend.
How could anyone be expected to teach (lots of talking) all day without drinking water. That would not fly. Even the no food one would not work for me. If I am hungry during the day and I have something to eat, I'm gonna eat it.
I didn't HAVE to supply them, I just did it because I could spare a couple extra bucks to get them a notebook, and their parents couldn't, or wouldn't.
My thoughts exactly. The phone thing really bothers me. If you can't afford a pencil for your student, why are you buying them a fancy cell phone?? Why are you buying their school photos for $40 or more? It makes no sense to me.
I have to disagree with one comment I have read.... my children who's parents immigrated from other countries ALWAYS make sure their children have the supplies on the district list. Sometimes it's difficult for them to afford them all at once but they make sure I know that they are going to provide the items for their child... it just might take them two of daddy's pay days to get everything .... I make sure they know what items that I don't want and we won't use (we didn't have a say in the list)... and the two or three things that are very important.
They have also been the ones that have bent over backwards to make sure their child does their homework and practices their reading... before they do anything fun.
I've only had a handful of immigrants in my high school classes. Maybe 20 total. I will tell you that NONE of them valued education very highly at all. Students or parents.
I had several tell me flat out that it was MY job to buy them school supplies. Students told me that they didn't take notes because they didn't have a pencil. Had a mom tell me that she brought her kids here so they could have a FREE education and that meant she did not have to pay for a thing. The child she was talking about was here illegally too. Homework was not even a consideration.
Oops, I just lied. I had one student who was here from Asia. They were here on Dad's work visa. His father was all about his son doing well and getting his work done at home. He had everything he needed for the classroom.
Those that were from Mexico and Pakistan had very little concern for education. Most of the students dropped out of school during the year that I had them.
The issue under contention in California is whether a district or school can legally charge fees for participation in extracurricular activities such as sports or drama. in 1984 a majority of the state Supreme Court, considering legal precedents not only in California but elsewhere in the nation, found that requiring these fees violates a clear provision of the state Constitution.
Last year, a number of school districts in the state were caught imposing fees not only for extracurriculars but for science labs, AP materials, and the like. One of the districts is in my area, and its financial dealings have been raising eyebrows on a number of other grounds. Local courts, taking the 1984 ruling as precedent, have ruled that the fees must be rescinded and refunded to the parents.
The ruling, by the way, is Hartzell v. Connell, 679 P. 2d 35 - Cal: Supreme Court (1984). I very much doubt that Ms. Hartzell and the other plaintiffs on whose behalf the suit was brought in Santa Barbara, CA, which is not in Southern California as most of us here understand the term, much resemble the illegal alien that is the stuff of some people's nightmares.
I have never experienced this with any of the dozens of immigrants I have taught. I'm sorry that your experience in your part of the country has been so negative.
My experience has been very different from that...
Almost all my immigrant students directly from another country have worked very hard, and been very scholastically supported by their families.
I have noticed though, that Mexican-American culture, at least in my area, does not value education as much as students who are first generation immigrants.
I have also had many Hispanic students who have to drop out to help support their families...
I've always supplemented supplies for my classes. The school provided basic supplies such as pencils, crayons, glue, etc.
Suppliea? I've never heard of that form of 'supplies' before.
At my school we are not allowed to recognize birthdays or any holiday. The majority of my students are very religious so we try to respect that by not recognizing anything. But it makes me sad not to be able to wish one of them happy birthday.
We also have a no cupcakes/sweets rule.
I also totally believe in the "no food" I am allergic to different foods and so is my ds. It is much easier with this rule than to have to see if it can be in the classroom.
The school I am at had to adjust our supply lists because of this and they were told ( I am not sure by who) that a students supply list can only have items required that stay with that student and is their property. Things like kleenex, hand sanitizers etc have to be on a donation only list.
Actually, yes. medicare and many state support systems pay for transportation, either by medical van, city transportation or taxi for people who are covered.
If it did not, there are a ton of elderly people, disabled people without families, and poor people who would never get the preventative care and disease-management that keeps them alive and helps to keep us safer (ie, innoculations).
Many social workers (for example, my mother) who work in mental health have to drive patients around because the government-provided transport is unreliable. She does that out of her own pocket, just like we often provide things that aren't supposed to be part of our job.
So I guess most of you will be surprised that the state of Indiana requires parents to pay a book rental fee and NO you don't get the books, you are paying to rent them. This year my senior's book fee is $154.38. That doesn't include the supplies she needs. I only ever had to pay book fee for my two girls and it was rather a big hit at the beginning of the school year with back to school clothes, shoes, supplies, uniform fees, new cleats, leotards, cheer warm-up, ect . . . I can't imagine parents with three, four and five kids paying book fees every year.
When my dd's were in elementary, I also bought a ream of paper, kleenex, box of quart zip-loc bags, 1 package of dry erase markers, besides the regular stuff AND the book fees.
This year students will have to pay to play sports. I don't yet know what the fee is but the fee is mostly for transportation.
So, parents in my district pay book fees, buy supplies, pay a uniform fee for all sports, sports tranporation fee, parking pass if in high school, and also buy classroom supplies. Whew, that's a lot of money
"But for insects, bugs, and rodents, I see why food might be limited to certain areas."
Food is not limited to certain areas. Food is banned except at lunch time. I can have whatever food I want in my classroom and students get food during parties in my classroom, but only a couple items the principal has the cafeteria send down in big trash bags- usually a juice and a bag of baked chips.
"I believe many kids are completely overwhelmed by the stuff they must keep track of... If every child is given 1 pencil at the start of a class and they must return it when the activity or lesson is over prior to going to another class, each student has 1 thing. It isn't hard to find the missing pencil when they don't have a pouch or hard case and a ton of crayons and markers and erasers and..."
In my second grade class the students may keep a pencil, a pen, and an eraser in their desk. That's it (besides textbooks/workbooks). Other supplies are kept on bookshelves or in cabinets and are only gotten out when needed. I think it's ridiculous to think you should be expected to teach kids with just a pencil.
"Fire codes have changed. You can't say anything to the principal about that. They didn't make the rule. "
Actually...in this case, I believe he did. We are given a copy of the fire codes each year and they include things like not using an extension cord, keeping the walls clear of anything 18" from the ceiling, and leaving one window open as an escape route. There is nothing ever mentioned about not decorating the classroom doors or hanging curtains (we have blinds).
"Plants and pets, I agree as someone that is highly allergic to mold spores (in the dirt of the plants) and fury pets. Also, don't like samanella (turtles)."
Yeah, this rule makes the most sense to me- although the no plants allowed rule seemed crazy until another poster mentioned being allergic to plants.
"You want them to learn about plants, take them outside to see them when you go out for recess. Have a garden check - garden meaning anything that is growing."
I like this idea! There aren't many plants around our school even though it's rural...just lots and lots of grass and maybe a few dandelions. There's only one big tree on the school property. But I think it would be neat to have the kids draw a pic of the tree and other plants we might find in the different seasons. We could take pics of them as well and track their growth or at least patterns in weather/temperature, etc. Thanks!
"I also agree with having field trips regulated. It takes away a lot of learning time so therefore it must be relevant and provide a lot of learning. It is also an expense and a liability."
Of course it should be relevant! I do understand this rule some, though. It just bothers me that we are teaching them about things inside the four walls of a classroom and expecting them to get it. For example...I can tell them to write a paragraph describing an apple...OR...I can let them taste, touch, and smell and apple before writing about it...OR...I can take them to an apple orchard and let them observe how apples grow and pick them...OR...I can let them use the apples we picked to find a [healthy] recipe we can try together as a class and practice measurement and following directions...It just bothers me that everything is getting so cut and dry- so technological and cold. I'm sorry, but even though a virtual tour beats a textbook, there's nothing like hands on learning...
I think she hit the "a" instead of the "s"
I also had to rent books when I was in high school. Though, if we returned the books in good shape at the end of the year, we got the money back. If you don't return the books or they were beaten up, you did not get your money back. To me that is completely fair. The school should not have to pay for books that students lose or destroy.
As for someone mentioning they can put things a donation list and not a supply list. All those lists mean the same thing to me. Whatever you want to call it, I am asking for help from those parents. I can't make them supply something, but I hope that they will to help out. Most parents provide what their child needs, this year again I know a bunch of teachers who are asking for the parents to just pay in cash what the teachers have already purchased. Most parents I have talked to about this, love the idea.
We don't get any money when the books are turned in at the end of the year. Students that lose or destory books do have to pay for in addition to paying the book fee.
My silly rules
No water ever for any reason--even athletic practices/rehearsals
We have one administrator who is nuts about this--if he sees a kid with a bottle, even if it's still sealed, he'll make them throw it away. You can have a medical note if necessary, but it must be worn on your person at all times.
Must write a daily lesson plan for each class (even if they're the same subject) and must be in specific format. Must indicate DI. Must include all handouts, quizzes, tests, etc as attachments. If not completed, teacher gets a bad note in their file. And then have to field questions like, "Why do you have three days of drama class only doing rehearsal?" "That's all we're doing" "But why?" "Because it's drama class."
Must use school provided bathroom passes-even if its an emergency, if the kid doesn't have it, they're sent back.
And I used to have to pay a book fee as well, back in CA in the late 80s, early 90s. And I know how much we had to pay for choir uniforms, etc. A lot.
No water at athletic practices. Athletes have died because of things like that. This person should be reported or everyone should boycott this "rule." Not allowing water is inhumane. People need to be hydrated.
I really want to hear their stated reason for this. I think I know what it is, but I need to make sure.
I can't think of a single legitimate reason for this.
Half the time I can't make it through a lesson without taking a drink of water.
Vodka looks a lot like water in a bottle. Students have been doing that at least since I was in high school, probably longer ago than that. That's my guess, anyway.
My answer to no Kleenex
"Kleenex is my biggie. I'm NOT buying any more this year. "
I am a kindergarten teacher and we can go through some tissue in no time! Once we run out, I take one of the square vertical boxes and cut four diagonal slits in the top opening. I bring in a roll of Scott's toilet paper (1,000 sheets per roll), remove the center cardboard core, pull the paper from the center and insert it into the old tissue box. It lasts much, much longer than several boxes of tissues. I refuse to buy such a throw-away item for my kids to waste!
If you can't tell of a teenager is under the influence of alcohol, then you have no business being a school administrator.
That is the reasoning...the only exceptions at some schools is if it is bought and consumed in the commons area. It is not allowed to be taken out of the area. Our building is not that far yet, but our high school has banned certain students from beverages because of "breaking of rules."
LOVE this idea!! I am using it this year! I, too, have issues with Kleenex. Before Christmas break we WILL be out of tissue and then it is a battle for the rest of the year. I either get tissue from the restroom, get paper towels from the restroom, or advise the students to get the small pack of them and leave in their bookbag if they will need it often. I despise the "Battle of the Kleenex"!!!!
Jul 31, 2011
We just had our day of "back to school" meetings and one of the myriad of things for this year was that we COULDN'T deny students water for any reason - state mandate.
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