Copying standards as punishment

Discussion in 'General Education Archives' started by Eki75, Oct 11, 2005.

  1. Eki75

    Eki75 Rookie

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    Oct 11, 2005

    At an in service today, it was suggested that removing a student from the class and having them sit and copy standards or pages from the dictionary was a good consequence for misbehavior. I was under the impression that this was against the new educational laws, but I cannot find a citation to corroborate that. Does anyone know if it is, in fact, against the law, and if so, which law does it violate? :D :thanks:
     
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  3. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    I don't know, but who the hell was presenting at your inservice???? What a load of bull. Would you want to be assigned such a consequence for turning in lesson plans late (or whatever....) Treat kids the way you would want to be treated. That doesn't mean getting run over by them. Expect responsibility and assign consequences for choices- positve and negative.
     
  4. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

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    I don't know where the official law is, I do know that several years ago we were told that we were not allowed to sit a child in the hall because of punishment. (A superviso had a stroke one day because she thought I had two kids in the hall doing punish work. Then she found out they were just making up a spelling test (one was calling words to the other.)

    However, in science not all kids do the activities sometimes. It's all about behavior. I spend a small fortune getting stuff for the activities. If their behavior has been bad enough that I don't feel they can handle the activity, they copy the appropriate pages out of the book while the others do the activity. That way they are learning, just not hands on learning.
     
  5. jcg

    jcg Cohort

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    Czacza and ChristyF, I totally agree, copying stuff is a waste of time and what does does it teach and who is that person that is suggesting that you make a child do it? It is just ridiculous and old school, haven't we advanced further than that? Shouldn't consequences be based on seeing the connection between appropriate and inappropriate behavior? Teach, don't punish.
     
  6. Beth2004

    Beth2004 Maven

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    I agree. Copying things like that is a waste of time and isn't going to teach the student anything but to hate writing. It seems ridiculous that someone would recommend that at an inservice. I don't know of any specific educational law about it, but I do know that it's not the best consequence for any misbehavior.
     
  7. jcg

    jcg Cohort

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    Oct 11, 2005

    Amen!
     
  8. Eki75

    Eki75 Rookie

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    Oh, I am right there with you. I was appalled by some of the things my fellow teachers considered appropriate consequences--standing for the whole period for not bringing homework, copying standards, stadning with their noses on the blackboard. I had to open my mouth and say that I thought it was wrong, but now I need the legal citation to back me up! lol.
     
  9. hatima

    hatima Devotee

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    I'm not sure if that violates a law but it should. That's horrible! :mad: That would be one quick way to get students to really hate school. Standards or dictionary. I remember having to do that with a dictionary once. To this day I hate dictionaries that are not electronic or online. I really hate telling my students to look up a word.

    Eki75 from the standpoint of someone who had to stand the whole period (12th grade) for being tardy...it didn't teach me not be be late to class. This class was 90 minutes long. I had to take notes for a test. I honestly didn't care. I had to stand for another class for ten minutes because I was 20 minutes late for class (I left for lunch, my friend and I went across town and got stuck in traffic). I respected this teacher a lot she didn't belittle us for mistakes, I was sorry to be late to her class. I only had to stand for about ten minutes in the back while she went over the assignment, and I took notes. Students were rarely late to her class. The teacher who had us stand the whole class, always had tardies. After class she asked why I was late. We went to my friends moms work that was about 15 minutes from the school in busy congested lunch rush traffic. She told me that was dumb, not to do it again.
     
  10. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

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    Having the kids look up words can be time consuming, but they have got to learn how to do it, so I always include a few in my lessons. As someone who is almost 100% tactile learner, I never learned without writing. I teach my kids to discover which way works best for them. That's another reason I make them define the words. Honestly, for some of them, that's the only time they are looking at that definition on their own.
     
  11. smilesjd

    smilesjd Rookie

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    I am not sure if it violates a law, but I do know that is a great way to get students to hate writing! They will all thing that all types of writing is punishment.
     
  12. kburen

    kburen Cohort

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    The only thing that I would ever have my students copy would be class rules if they've broken one.
     
  13. Lovelabs

    Lovelabs Comrade

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    The teachers who suggested copying standards are probably the same teachers who dish out worksheet after worksheet under the guise of "seatwork" and call it teaching. It makes me crazy!
     
  14. smilesjd

    smilesjd Rookie

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    I agree Lovelabs, they probably are the same teachers!
     
  15. kburen

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    If copying rules is the same as "standards" then I take offence to those comments. I will have my students copy rules if they continue to break the same rule over and over again. I give worksheets, but that's not all we do. We do projects in class, out of class, make things, experiment. Not all teachers who have students copy things just give worksheets. My students (and the rest of the 5th grade students in my school) copy their spelling words each week, 5 times each. They learn the words better that way. I don't see it as "evil" or "pointless" to make a student copy a rule in order to remember it....Those students don't break that rule anymore.
     
  16. smilesjd

    smilesjd Rookie

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    I can not speak for anyone else, but my posts were not intended to offend anyone. I feel many teachers who have students copy standards or rules over and over again (That being the ONLY form of punishment or classroom management in the classroom) are the teachers who think giving worksheet after worksheet is teaching. Those are the teachers sitting at there desks all day while watching the students do the worksheets. I think every teacher gives a worksheet to their students every once in a while. I am not saying anyone who gives their students a worksheet here and there is horrible, or anything along those lines! My point was, I feel writing standards or rules should not be the ONLY way used and that a day full of worksheets is not teaching. Sorry kburen for the previous comments, I did not fully explain myself in my quick posts.
     
  17. Lovelabs

    Lovelabs Comrade

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    I took standards to be mean state standards.
     
  18. kburen

    kburen Cohort

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    Gotcha :) I agree...It shouldn't be the ONLY form of punishment. We have silent lunch and/or missing part of recess or all of recess depending on the action of the student. I just find that if talking in the hallway is a rule that a student continues to break, that if they write it a few times (especially if they HATE writing) they tend to stop breaking that rule.
     
  19. Lovelabs

    Lovelabs Comrade

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    Sure, that's reasonable. State standards...ugh!
     
  20. TeacherC

    TeacherC Connoisseur

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    Being that I am only a long term sub, I can't do anything to change the rule, but the punishment in third grade for not doing your homework is a missing recess. During the missing recess, the students choose a page out of the dictionary and copy. It is soooo pointless!! The same students always break the rules, and they are copying everyday. I like to have them just put their head down, but apparently that is not "tough" enough for them. I have started to write their math vocab. words on the board and have them copy those...then at least they have to use skills to look up the words. Does anyone have any other suggestions for what I can do with them? :rolleyes:
     
  21. Beth2004

    Beth2004 Maven

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    Copying rules can be effective and copying spelling words serves to help them remember how to spell them, but copying state standards (which is also how I took it) seems pointless.
     
  22. Pencil Monkey

    Pencil Monkey Devotee

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    what a load of bs. That is extremely old fashioned and outdated thinking. Giving students books, dictionaries or other things like that to copy as punishment is just wrong. It teaches them that writting and reading are punishment. They should be taught to enjoy it.

    Thats my 2c for the day.
     
  23. Eki75

    Eki75 Rookie

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    No offense meant. First of all, when I said "copy standards," I meant sit and copy the state standards or copy a random page out of the dictionary 500 times.

    The rest is JMHO, so take it for what it's worth. I agree that making kids copy rules MAY make them remember the rules, but I would go out on a limb and say that if you ask them what rule they broke before you made them copy it, they would be able to tell you--therefore, the REMEMBERING (or regurgitating) the rules is not the skill you are trying to enforce--and THEREFORE, copying the rules repeatedly doesn't seem like a logical practice for what you are really trying to achieve, which is application of the rules. I don't think that consequences should often be punishers, but behavior modifiers; that is, pick a replacement behavior that is more acceptable than what they've displayed and figure out a way to teach them to favor the replacement behavior instead of the one you are trying to get rid of. Is it harder than simply making them copy standards? YES!! But is it more effective and lasting? I'd say YES. Also, making them write as a punishment only teaches them that writing=punishment which is not a message I personally want to teach my kids.

    Now, as for copying spelling words.... I have mixed feelings. It may work for some students, but for my SLD students, it won't. I think it would be more effective to teach spelling patterns and phonics, phonemes, graphemes, etc.... and have them practice application of those themes in order to spell their words correctly. Again, is it EASIER to have them sit and copy? YES!! Is it the most effective use of their time? I dunno. I don't do it with my students, but I don't know anyone else's students to judge what is or is not effective for them.
     
  24. Eki75

    Eki75 Rookie

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    This may seem weird, but use that time to INVEST them in your class by getting to know them on a personal level. Have them clean the classroom or do other "work" around the classroom the pay off their debt, but engage in conversation with them. Find out what they like and dislike, etc... Then, you can use that to your advantage in the classroom by incorporating their interests into the lesson. I have a kid who threatened to kill me and my para REPEATEDLY during the first month of school, but I worked really hard to invest him by getting to know him on a personal level--now, he's my "best friend" and always comes in at recess or lunch just to see if I need help. He is still a nightmare in class sometimes, but the death threats have stopped. lol. Baby steps sometimes, but purposeful baby steps. Had I made him come in at detention and copy standards instead of GENUINELY trying to make him feel valued, Lord knows what would have happened to me by now.
     
  25. ChristyF

    ChristyF Moderator

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    Randomly copying the states standards is not the best way to handle things, I agree. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the children to work at school. If they didn't copy the spelling words many children wouldn't look at them. Yes, it would be wonderful to be able to teach spelling skills, phonetics, etc. My parish has randomly arranged spelling lists, they aren't grouped by skills. I would be teaching 20+ skills each week, that's not effective. I teach a few skills each week and review them as often as possible when other words that follow that pattern come up.
    I stand by what I do in science, though. Students who are not behaving correctly can cause problems or even injure other students. They aren't being "punished" by copying the pages out of the book. The activities are an extension of the lesson. For example, last year I had 3 kids who copied the lesson on electricity while the others did the activity. No, it's not perfect, but I'm not going to keep those who are behaving correctly from doing the activities. The kids who are copying still get to view the results of the experiment and participate in the after experiment discussion. If the class gets a grade on the experiment (usually based mainly on participation, group work, following scientific process, etc) those that copied get a grade based on if they did or didn't copy. They lose a few points because their behavior prevented them from doing the experiment. I've never had a child have to do it more than once, and actually, once the kids realized I meant what I said about it, I only had it happen the one time.
    I feel an important part of what I do is teach my kids reponsibility. They must understand that there are consequences of their actions.
     
  26. Miss W

    Miss W Phenom

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    For my kids who didn't do their homework, or didn't work in class (when there was plenty of time), I have them come in from recess and do that work. When they are finished and I have checked it, they may go out to the playground.
    I see nothing wrong with having the kids copy information out of the book, while the rest of the class is doing the experiment. If a child doesn't show responsibility and respect, how can you expect them to do so for an experiment. As long as copying the information from the book meets the state standards/frameworks, then it shouldn't be a problem. Now if the standard/framework states that they must do something, then that could be a problem.
    I would never ask students to copy from a dictionary or the standards as punishment. Really, what purpose does it serve?
     

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