Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by AdamnJakesMommy, Jan 5, 2014.
Jan 7, 2014
You don't believe teachers can do research based instruction poorly?
Maybe the district gets more detailed information... actually, I'm sure they do, because my school is focusing on geometry this year. However, since I never got any type of breakdown... nothing but a number. I could always just assume that I need to focus on geometry too... though since my kids had the highest average in the district, maybe I don't need to worry about geometry. Who knows?
I didn't make a judgment about that in my post.
Are you asking or accusing?
I am saying that just because a teacher uses research based strategies does this make them effective?(you implied they are, didn't you?)
My opinion is no. I have seen very effective teachers use very "outdated strategies". I have seen very ineffective teachers using very "research based" strategies.
I don't understand the statement that teachers look at the process to determine effectiveness. While "politicians" look at results. Seems to me teachers look at results ALL the time...and should.
I don't believe I implied that. If you feel I did, that was not my intention.
I have seen teachers take a research based program and do 1/10th of it and change the rest and claim to implement the program with fidelity then claim the program doesn't work. These teachers blamed the administration for forcing them to use the program, the students for not working hard enough, and everything except for the fact they didn't really implement the program.
Teachers see results all the time. You are right. The question is what do they do with the results, particularly when they are bad. Some will just move on and blame the kids never looking back and still claim they are effective teachers because they problem isn't with what they were doing in the classroom to ensure the students learned. Some will reflect, reteach, and evaluate the results and determine why the students couldn't show they understood the material.
I absolutely agree with what you are saying.
Would it really matter to you? Honestly, it is hard NOT to be offended by every question you write. Do YOU really feel effective ONLY by a end of year test?
I know I am effective when a student comes back to me and says that he/she remembers all they have learned in my class. I know I am effective when I have made a difference in a child's life-whether it is academic or not.
And with that, I am done with this post.
Missed this earlier... a math and reading multiple choice test don't come even remotely close to covering all the things that a good teacher does in a year.
I know, talking about effectiveness is a touchy subject as everyone wants to believe they are effective and shape the criteria to support their feelings.
It is not directed specifically at you, so don't take it personally.
Can you give a few examples?
Well, science, social studies, writing, oral language and health, from the strictly academic area.
A reading test doesn't show whether a teacher has made a child WANT to read. A reading test doesn't show whether a child has decided to read something they would not have otherwise. A reading test does not measure whether a teacher effectively helped a child get through the day on their first day back after their grandfather's funeral. A reading test doesn't show that an extremely shy child was able to open up and make friends thanks to the classroom environment he/she was in. Heck, a math test doesn't even show that a teacher tried eight different things to get a student to understand equivalent fractions before finding the "silver bullet" on the 9th try. Etc.
I disagree, a teacher that does these things, they absolutely show more improvement on tests. These things DIRECTLY impact how well a student will achieve on those tests. IMO of course.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. There are so many things teachers do that do not have any impact whatsoever on a reading test but still absolutely impact a child's life.
Yes I think that is fair. I know that my thinking on this is different than most. But I absolutely believe that your relationship with a student and the things you describe will impact test scores dramatically and that they are not isolated.
A student that is motivated, enjoys class, teacher has great class management..things like these all improve the learning of the student and result in better scores...imo.
It's definitely true that a process-oriented evaluation could be ineffective and miss things such as implementation integrity or some of the "glue" elements that can make or break otherwise "evidence-based" instruction, such as pacing. For example, a teacher could use a generally effective scripted program but mess it up by using pacing that is too slow. However, the issue here with assessing process would be creating an assessment specific enough to cover enough ground, not the concept of process-oriented evaluation itself.
I thought you said science and social studies had benefits to ELA?
They do, but those benefits (edit: on a multiple choice reading test) are going to be, at best, minor.
Ok, ty for responding.
There's no question that state tests reflect things like behavior management and related arts, but they don't fully capture those areas either. There is, in reality, no assessment instrument that will fully capture a construct such as "effective teaching," which itself is more than just one construct. BUT, that doesn't mean the assessment instrument is invalid, just not sufficient to complete the evaluation. So, any argument against state test really can't be about what it does NOT include, because a comprehensive evaluation would include other assessment tools that would purportedly measure those other areas.
Whew, my thread brought on a whole lotta posts. I will catch up on them tomorrow--been really busy with back to school this week...
Ugh I just saw some video someone posted on FB with this mother from Arkansas ranting about how bad the common core is because it's making kids draw a picture of 90/18....that's not what the common core is or says at all. She was so misinformed. The problem is with curriculum that is requiring specific methods of solving. I do the same thing, present different methods, we discuss their efficiency and students choose the methods that work for them. I don't have a problem with the actual standards at all. The curriculum we're using (specifically in ELA) on the other hand is another story sometimes...