Cleavage

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by YoungTeacherGuy, May 25, 2012.

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  1. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    So...I overheard a few of my boys talking about another teacher's cleavage (a young, attractive teacher who often wears clothes that I don't think are appropriate around teenage boys). She tends to wear "going out" clothes to work each day (tight, short, and flashy).

    Anyway, I had a talk with them about how it was disrespectful and completely inappropriate to talk about a teacher in that way. Then, I wrote them a referral to the asst. principal.

    I really wish this teacher wouldn't dress this way, though. I guess she's been told by other teachers and from our administrators about her choice of attire; however, our contract doesn't state what we can and can't wear.

    Now that I think more about the situation, I feel guilty about writing up my students for their comments. I think reprimanding them verbally would've been enough.

    Your thoughts?
     
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  3. jwteacher

    jwteacher Cohort

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    If the boys were just talking amongst themselves and no one else heard them, then yes, I think a talk would have been enough.

    Think back to when you were 12 or 13 years old and put yourself in their shoes. If your attractive female teacher consistently wore skimpy clothing would you not talk about it with your friends?

    Regardless, I wouldn't feel guilty about making the referral. You were acting professionally and in the best interests of your colleague.
     
  4. bison

    bison Habitué

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    I agree that a talk would have been enough, but I wouldn't feel guilty at this point either. You did what you thought was best at the time and a referral is not the end of the world. Maybe if she hears about the incident, it'll be a wake up call when it comes to appropriate work attire. Win win?
     
  5. Ron6103

    Ron6103 Habitué

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    I probably wouldn't of written it up, but I agree with your thoughts on the matter. A teacher I work with regularly dresses unprofessionally, and has been approached by administration about it (and other teachers). But much like you, we have no formal dress code in our contract. Thus, this teacher basically has the attitude of "I can wear what I want, and I will do so!".

    I don't like it, but there isn't much I can do about it other than grumble. I don't want to come off as a dress-code snob or anything, but I do think that as teachers, we have a responsibility to dress and act professionally.
     
  6. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 26, 2012

    I have seen too much cleavage at work several times...it bothers me greatly. I've also seen past the point of what would be considered cleavage, as the top was extremely low and wide cut and every time she bent over you saw the entire rounded boob. Crazy!

    It depends on how they were speaking...if it was "she looks goooood", then I would have spoken to them. Something beyond that or anything going into the vulgar category, a referral.

    But I think the teacher should get a referral as well...
     
  7. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    I...... uh........well.........but.............never mind.
    Another reason elem. is SOOO much safer.
     
  8. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    May 26, 2012

    If there were any young ladies in your class who overheard the conversation and may have felt uncomfortable, you were right to use the referral.
     
  9. Joy

    Joy Cohort

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    The referral made the Assistant Principal aware of the situation. I think you did the right thing.
     
  10. BumbleB

    BumbleB Habitué

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    I agree with what others have said, if it was just a quiet conversation between the boys, I would have just spoken to them about it. But I wouldn't feel guilty about writing them up. If anything, this is concrete evidence that this teacher's wardrobe is causing a disruption with the students. Maybe if the teacher sees a written report like that, it might make everyone's concerns about her attire more "real" for her.
     
  11. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

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    May 26, 2012

    :yeahthat:


    :lol:
     
  12. BioAngel

    BioAngel Science Teacher - Grades 3-6

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    May 26, 2012

    I would have written up the boys-- its inappropriate and rude to talk about a lady like that. I would also be glad there's now documentation with the office that this lady is attracting attention from students-- hopefully it'll get back to her.

    I really don't get why some female teachers feel the need to show off their bodies IN SCHOOL. Sooo unprofessional!
     
  13. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

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    In my class it would have been justified because students are told early on that conversations regarding my colleagues are off limits. It is something that is just not allowed. So engaging in such a conversation would fall under insubordination.

    However, nothing would be done to the students other than a very quick conversation with a principal about choosing their words carefully.

    I think a stern conversation with ME is all that would be needed though. I wouldn't write a referral but at least now admin can see that the colleague's dress does affect instruction.
     
  14. Joyful!

    Joyful! Habitué

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    Maybe this will be the tool that your admin can use to discuss dress with your colleague given you have no dress code parameters.

    I so dislike when we are placed in a terrible and unnecessary position by the behavior of another professional. (Yeah, you couldn't leave the comment unaddressed, but she needed a little more dress, evidently:))
     
  15. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    May 26, 2012

    I guess I don't see the need for the referral. They are boys, after all, and it sounds like it was a conversation between the two. The teacher should dress more appropriately. We would definitely be talked to if we wore clothes like that.
     
  16. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    May 26, 2012

    I agree with what you did YTG, and this is the main reason why I am very aware of what I wear around the high school boys I teach. Every morning I bend over and if I can see down my shirt, then I change.
     
  17. John Lee

    John Lee Groupie

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    What are you talking about? It's inappropriate for young boys to notice a woman (an attractive one at that) who is dressed provocatively? Do you really believe that? If you want to play the "a lady" card... a lady doesn't dress like that in front in a professional setting or in front of young boys.

    I suppose it's inappropriate for them to make lewd remarks toward her. And I guess it's inappropriate if they were making an outward scene about her. And it's certainly inappropriate to touch her. But it's not inappropriate for them to notice her, and want to discuss her.

    I can certainly understand the dilemma.

    And to be quite honest, I think these type of people shouldn't be teaching. As I think about this thread, I saw this one young (I think she was a student-teacher) who had the tightest stretchy-type pants on, such that it basically left nothing to the imagination. I had to look double, triple, quadruple and take just to verify what I was seeing. :p Seriously, I was aghast (as a teacher) seeing it, and was very uneasy as she walked through the hall (hoping not to see kids noticing it).

    I also routinely see teachers (some PE, but even still) wearing workout type pants (which are clearly worn to show off their booty). THIS IS FLAT INAPPROPRIATE, IN A SCHOOL SETTING. I don't care if you teach PE, or whatever. Wear some shorts over it. These people can't be that ignorant (of the effect it has on adoring young boys).

    As to the OP, I would probably feel bad about it. Sounds like they were acting just like 100% of the other boys might have felt at the time.
     
  18. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    May 26, 2012

    I probably not have written up the boys, but I don't know your school culture, so it may have been the best thing to do. Talking to them was good.

    As far as that teacher goes, i would probably mention it to her that the boys were talking about her, due to her outfit. In most cases that would work, and have her reconsider things, but based on what you said, teachers already talked to her. I would have still mentioned to her, just for my own amusement :)
     
  19. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    May 26, 2012

    I think Americans in general are a little silly about the human body. I do remember this about being a teenage boy, cleavage or no cleavage we were talking about it, thinking about it, dreaming about it and looking forward to it. And that is just the truth. I am guessing it still is the main topic for young guys.
     
  20. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Yes, boys will be boys. A research showed that men, on average think about sex 19 times / day, so what do you think it is for teenage boys with raging hormones? Yes, it's perfectly ok for them to discuss it. But once a teacher is aware of the conversation, it changes things.
    If I was hearing my students discussing another female teacher in regards to her body, especially if the comments were out of line, I would have to intervene. I wouldn't write them up, but would talk to them. At the least I would tell them I wouldn't want to hear such comments.
     
  21. greendream

    greendream Cohort

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    I would agree. Any kind of outward display would be totally inappropriate, but I wouldn't write up two boys having a private conversation about a provocatively dressed teacher. I think a talk would have been enough. If anyone needs a referral, it's the teacher who dresses like that in a school setting.
     
  22. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    I don't think it's fair to say she isn't a lady because her cleavage could be seen. We don't even know her. I think this is where admin should step in and talk to her. While I wonder why it isn't obvious to her that this is inappropriate, this little issue could have been avoided if admin had spoken to her. It sounds to me that this is more of a matter of the admin not enforcing dress code, and the teacher not making very good dress choices.
     
  23. kpa1b2

    kpa1b2 Aficionado

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    I once overheard a 2nd grader say that I looked sexy, in a particular outfit. And the outfit was/is not a provicative outfit at all! I think it was in part, a little dressier then what I normally wear.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  24. YoungTeacherGuy

    YoungTeacherGuy Phenom

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    :D

    I like that idea!
     
  25. blazer

    blazer Connoisseur

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    May 26, 2012

    Many years ago, when I first started teaching. I taught in a boy's school. We had a student teacher (female) who dressed inappropriatly ( very low cleavage, I wasn't complaining). However it did distract the boys! (you bet). The Head of the dept didn't want to address this and eventualy it fell to me, as the junior, to talk to her. She said that she was unaware of the problem! I just took the line that she needed to think about her attire and that she was in front of a class of pubescent boys. Next day her neckline had risen by around 4 inches!

    Having said that, and 23 years have passed, I now work in a girl's school and several colleageues dress inappropraitly (in my opinion) but because our students are girls nothing is said. I still feel uncomfortable though as a male teacher, If a student exposed as much flesh as some of my colleagues I would feel obliged to either challenge the student or to recruit a female colleague to challenge her.
     
  26. comaba

    comaba Cohort

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    I suspect that knowing the boys received referrals for discussing her cleavage will only satisfy the reason she probably wears inappropriate attire in the first place.

    I hope that the parents of the boys will complain. Now that might make the admin take notice!
     
  27. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    If the boys' conversation was overheard, then it wasn't a private conversation. If it's not a private conversation, then it's basically public, and a public conversation in school about cleavage isn't appropriate. It creates an uncomfortable and unpleasant environment for other students, especially for any pre-teen girls who might be particularly developed in that way. Heck, maybe even for girls who aren't at all developed in that way. It could very easily morph into sexual harassment or a hostile learning environment.

    You did the right thing with the referral.
     
  28. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Connoisseur

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    This is my cut on cleavage...:D
    Women who tend to show too much of it are one OR more of the following...
    ...very confident in themselves
    ...show off; look what I have that you don't have
    ...want attention from men
    ...sometimes ugly women who have big chests tend to do the cleavage thingy...to compensate for the ugliness
    ...don't care about what others think
    ...don't have moral standards
    ...don't know any better
    ...Last, and most ignorant...don't give a schet abt who sees their boobs!

    Rebel1
     
  29. JetShack

    JetShack Rookie

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    I don't feel as if I can appropriately comment on this discussion without more information. Multiple pictures of the offending teacher in said attire would be beneficial.
     
  30. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Or as my Gatorsportsforum compatriots say , this thread is useless without pics.
     
  31. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Wow.
     
  32. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    My thoughts exactly. As long as it was not a conversation that caused a distraction among other students, not that big of a deal. At that age they are going to notice it, think about it, talk about it, etc. I sure know I will.
     
  33. bandnerdtx

    bandnerdtx Aficionado

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    I'm not a big fan of writing kids referals usually because I don't find them to be particularly effective, but if there's a chance that any female student in your class heard them, I think you did the right thing. You sent a powerful message to the girls that you stand with them on the delicate issue of sexual harassment, and I think that's extremely important.
     
  34. bandnerdtx

    bandnerdtx Aficionado

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    Yikes! I think that's really... MEAN. :(
     
  35. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    May 29, 2012

    And sexist.
     
  36. scholarteacher

    scholarteacher Connoisseur

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    Aarrrggggghhhh! One of my pet peeves! We have teachers who wear stuff so low cut that, as Archie Bunker would say, "The mystery is over"! For goodness sake, people, show a little modesty! That goes for parents on campus, too!
     
  37. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    While I agree that those teachers and parents should dress a little more appropriately while at the school, I can say, I'm not going to get that upset by it.
     
  38. Ms. I

    Ms. I Maven

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    I agree w/ the others who said it was good that you DID write them up. Obviously, they talked loud enough for you (& maybe others to hear). If they were in the privacy of their own home, that's obviously different & I would hope their parents reprimand them, but school is a public place & what they did was disrespectful.

    BTW, there's a school psych in my district that dresses like she's going out w/ the tight, revealing clothing, loud makeup, etc. I don't know if anyone's ever said anything to her about how she looks, but she's been doing it for a long time & the way it seems, has no intentions of changing/stopping.
     
  39. callmebob

    callmebob Enthusiast

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    I'm trying to figure out why their parents need to reprimand them if it was done at home.
     
  40. MrsMommy

    MrsMommy Rookie

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    Will boys be boys and will they think about the opposite sex? Yes

    Should the teacher in question wear more modest clothing? Yes

    If my Principal heard me talking talking about someone's cleavage in a sexual way, would I get a written reprimand? Yes..because if my P heard, I would have made it too public.

    If a politician/athlete/celebrity got caught with the mic on and the public heard similar comments? There would be heck to pay, not because it was unnatural but because there is a time and place for everything.

    Back to the two boys....

    Were they just acting like most pubescent boys would act? absolutely

    should they know that there is an appropriate time and place for those comments?
    absolutely

    I'm sure those comments crossed many of the students' minds..did they choose a better course of action (think before you speak)?
    absolutely

    A referral is not the end of the world and they will get over it.
     
  41. Ms. I

    Ms. I Maven

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    Because it's disrespectful period & I would hope that parents wouldn't want their boys to be crass about women, but many parents probably don't care unfortunately. Plus, usually the older a boy gets, the more vulgar they may tend to talk...if they're the type who does it at all.
     
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