Child Support Bust

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by JustMe, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Seen this?

    I know I'll sound crazy, but there is a part of me that doesn't like this...so deceitful. Of course, the other part realizes law enforcement has to do what works and that these men and women were wronging their children by not supporting them financially. It was creative, for sure.
     
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  3. Mrs. Q

    Mrs. Q Cohort

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    I've seen a lot of "stings" lately where the cops are very deceitful. I understand that they're catching criminals, but it always seems a little wrong to me as well. A bit hypocritical, maybe? :shrug:
     
  4. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I don't feel bad for them at all. No one forced them there--they went of their own volition. If they were worried about laying low and staying off the grid to avoid getting caught for being deadbeats, they shouldn't have popped up to collect their free tickets.

    These folks are violating the law by not paying their court-ordered support for children that they produced. They could be picked up and arrested at any time or place. I see these sorts of stings as a way for law enforcement to make more efficient use of their resources so that they can spend more resources fighting more crime. Instead of law enforcement needing to round up each individual deadbeat, they've found a pretty creative way to get many of those deadbeats to come to them. Seems kosher to me. I'm okay with it.
     
  5. Marci07

    Marci07 Devotee

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    If this is a way to catch them and make them correct their ways so that they can do the right thing and provide support for their kids, I say, go for it. It's about the kids!!!!

    As a former single parent I know that a missed child support payment could have meant not affording child care when I was working. This could have meant that I would have lost my job and not being able to provide a good education for my daughter.
     
  6. MsMar

    MsMar Fanatic

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    I have two friends who are single moms with "dead beat dads" who are constantly behind in child support. As a result their children suffer, especially for one friend as she is unemployed so her child support is one of the few sources of income she has. I think any way they can get these guys in is a-okay.
     
  7. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    I love it. People that father children and go their merry way
    deserve what they get.
     
  8. Blue

    Blue Aficionado

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    It's sad that a dad can get away with not helping. Both my DDs are/were single parents. One got $45 once. The other got $11 once.
     
  9. chemteach55

    chemteach55 Connoisseur

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    I have problem with it at all. When I was a paralegal, I worked at a homeless shelter and a battered woman's shelter. We had a client who had absolutely nothing and her husband was so far behind on child support. On paper, he was worth nothing because he put everything in other people's names. His ex-wife and children lived in a homeless shelter while he lived in a huge house, drove a Land Rover, and had season tickets to all LSU and Saints events. His children did not know where their next meal but he was well taken care of.
     
  10. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I know it's nuts that I find this a little "off"!
     
  11. silverspoon65

    silverspoon65 Enthusiast

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    I don't like this kind of stuff either.

    This reminds me of a situation with a teacher at my job last year. He was a good teacher, had a principal cert, wife and 2 kids. He went out last year with some friends to a ball game. On the way home, they passed some prostitutes on the corner. It was a bunch of guys having a good time and he yelled out the window something like "What can I get for $20?" The prostitute was a cop, and they arrested him for solicitation because he offered money.

    I know it isn't exactly the same thing - the people who didn't pay child support obviously didn't do something right - but I still wonder about due process laws and all that kind of stuff.

    On the other hand, I guess you can chase someone down physically, or use brains to make them come to you. I guess it's pretty smart. But I have to say, I actually kind of felt a little sorry for that first guy in the video for a second.
     
  12. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

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    I don't have any problem with these tactics. If you choose the illegal behavior, you deserve the consequences.
     
  13. sjnkate

    sjnkate Rookie

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    I agree with this.

    I was one of those kids waiting for a child support check that didn't come, watching my mom counting pennies. Then the few times I visited my dad he'd have a new $500 stereo, or a new car. We were able to scrape by. Usually after about three months we would finally get a check again and luckily my mom had a decent job so we could pay the rent. The men in this video all had at least $10,000 in unpaid child support. I can't imagine what their kids went through. :(
     
  14. TeacherNY

    TeacherNY Phenom

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    I agree. My husband was also a kid who's father never paid so I feel so sympathy for these deadbeats. It's disgusting what these parents do to their children.
     
  15. shouldbeasleep

    shouldbeasleep Enthusiast

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    Seems a lot safer for the officers than trying to serve them at their home or business.
     
  16. Speechy

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    Justme, you're not the only one. The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In a way, it's intrusive.

    Not every person who doesn't pay child support is a dead beat. Some just honestly don't have the money.

    The fact of the matter is, if someone doesn't want to pay support for their child, then they'll find a way not too. Catching them, taking them to court, garnishing their wages etc. If someone doesn't want to do it, they're not going to.

    Ugh. Sorry the mini rant. I'll admit, I'm a little biased. One of my best friends told his girlfriend that he did NOT want kids, and she proceeded to come up with a deceitful way to have one. Now he pays a chunk of his earnings every month toward that child. He wants to do the right thing, but any time he comes out short she waves her lawyer at him and threatens court.

    Obviously, that scenario is not typical of all child support cases, but a bulk of dads do not want to pay up. And the ones that pay up normally don't want to see the child anyway.

    Sorry, but some people just don't want to be parents. It's a bit unrealistic to try to make them step up and "accept the consequences", especially through dirty tactics like these.

    Just my :2cents:
     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    If they don't have the money, then they should go back to court and request an adjustment to their child support payments. Courts base those payments on income, and they're not unreasonable. They won't require someone making $8 an hour to pay $3k per month in support. Wouldn't that be a better solution than just falling off the face of the planet and neglecting your child?

    Whether the child was planned or unplanned is irrelevant. There are many instances where the custodial parent didn't plan to conceive the child either, but that parent still has to find a way to put dinner on the table and shoes on the kid. Yeah it stinks that you have to pay for a kid that you don't really want, but it's what happens when you choose to have a kid. We all have to do things that we don't always want to do, but part of being a responsible adult is doing those things anyway.

    Especially when children are involved, you'd have to be a deadbeat to just let your kid suffer because you didn't feel like being a responsible adult. The fact is that none of the people in that video is being responsible. One way or another each of them found a way to get to that place, probably in their own vehicle filled with gasoline, which costs some money. They were all wearing clothes, which costs some money. A few of them had a few extra pounds, which comes from food, which costs money. Clearly they have access to at least some money. Their kid should get that money first.
     
  18. Speechy

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    :yeahthat:


    For the record, I completely agree with you; you bring a child in this world, you have a responsibility to help and support them. But using the logic that they are "adults" isn't good enough, unfortunately. That reasoning could be applied to a lot of cases, but the fact is a ton of people still aren't going to step up, even if it is "the adult thing to do" "the responsible/ right thing to do".

    Certain people are selfish and only care about themselves. Parents are not exempt from these traits.

    But two wrongs don't make a right. And this was wrong, at least, to me.
     
  19. bros

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    My cousin's father has never paid my aunt a dime in child support.

    Yet he still has visitation rights. One weekend a month and he gets her every other Thanksgiving.

    He pushed my aunt down the stairs when he found out she was pregnant with my cousin.

    Whenever my cousin visits him, he showers her with gifts and expensive things (like $200 toys, $300 an hour private ice skating lessons, things like that) and refuses to let her take ANY of it home with her.

    My aunt has been fighting him in court for the past 7 years, but his lawyers keep delaying and delaying.
     
  20. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I know you know that visitation rights aren't tied to the ability to pay child support. Parents don't have to pay for the right to see their children.
     
  21. bandnerdtx

    bandnerdtx Aficionado

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    This kind of practice is pretty common with the Houston Police Department. As a matter of fact, they do it for lots of outstanding warrants, not just focusing on "dead beat" parents. On the other hand, they also offer ticket "amnesty" periods where you can go in and pay for your tickets without extra fines.

    The Supreme Court has upheld the right of police to lie to us for many, many years.
     
  22. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    But if the woman lies to the man and says she's on the pill, or pokes holes in the condoms, or does one of the other things women do to trick men into getting them pregnant, then I do not think the man should have to pay for it. He made it clear he didn't want a child, he made sure protection was being used, but the woman went against that. And he didn't choose to have that kid, she did. He would possibly have chosen to have an abortion, but that's the woman's choice, not his. In cases like that, I can see the man not paying child support, especially if he has nothing to do with the child and signs away his parental rights.
     
  23. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    The thing that struck me about the video was how well dressed, and well taken care of, each of the "victims" was. None looked as though he (or she) was living in abject poverty, unable to provide for himself.

    If there's a reason why he can't pay child support, that's an issue for the courts. This "sting" was about serving warrants that already existed, not about adjusting child support payments. I think it was a clever way to serve a warrant, and a way that didn't put the warrant-server at risk.

    If you can't risk paying support, avoid making babies. Or have sex with someone you know very well and trust, and plan to spend the rest of your life with, knowing that having sex brings the possibility of making babies.

    But no child deserves to live in poverty when he or she has a parent who chooses not to provide for those needs. And no adult deserves to singlehandedly support a child when there's another adult with equal responsibility.
     
  24. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Equal responsibility? I have a friend who went off the pill without telling her husband (they'd been married for ten years) and then lied and said it must have been a birth control failure. The child caused a huge strain in their marriage, and they later divorced because of it. He had been clear before they got married and throughout their marriage that he did not want kids, and she was "fine with it." Why should he have to pay child support when he is not the one who chose to have a child? She has since had two kids using a sperm bank. Why don't those men have to pay her child support? They are biologically the father. In an ideal world, men would support their children, emotionally and financially. Men should be able to have the choice to avoid the responsibility of parenthood. Women have many options for that. If I were a man, I'd be signing up for trials of that new male birth control pill they are developing, or I'd just get a vasectomy!
     
  25. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    In fairness, they did expect to win and potentially be recorded, and their "well-dressed" was t-shirts, not suits.

    I agree with your other point, though, and really it is the most salient point (I think Caesar said something similar). These are existing warrants that can be served at any time, and the police are simply doing their job of making the arrests in a safe manner. This is probably a lot better and safer than walking up to the person's house and ringing the doorbell, which could lead to domestic issues with other occupants or flight or nonresponse on the part of the arrestee.
     
  26. BettyRubble

    BettyRubble Rookie

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    No one's forcing these men to have sex, though. I know even vasectomies aren't 100% but if they want to do the best they can to ensure that they don't get someone pregnant, they should have that procedure done...or just avoid having sex. Is it realistic? Probably not. But he knows how babies are made and ultimately the one who suffers is the child.
     
  27. Marci07

    Marci07 Devotee

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    I agree. It seems ridiculous that a man would refuse to pay child support just because he felt he was "lied" to when if he was the one that didn't want to have kids, HE should have done what he needed to do to make sure that didn't happen. These day and age there are many options for men and women for birthcontrol so there shouldn't be "is his/her fault". :2cents:
     
  28. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Avoid having sex with his wife to avoid having a kid? That's an unrealistic expectation. Within the bounds of a marriage I think he had a reasonable expectation that his wife was telling the truth about birth control use. This wasn't some random one night stand, but a woman who he had been in a loving relationship with for over ten years. So, women who don't want kids can use many different contraceptives, have an abortion, or give a kid up for adoption, but a man's only option is celibacy or a vasectomy?
     
  29. paperheart

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    Really?? I'm shocked any teacher would have the slightest bit of sympathy for these guys and lady. These are the people that break the hearts of the children we teach. Many times, their other parent or guardian struggles to support them and they lose two parents--one because s/he is a jerk and the other because s/he is drowning in responsibility/never hoem etc. I don't understand the sympathy at all.

    These types of stings happen ALL the time, as they should. Why should the police spend hours and hours playing cat and mouse when they can get them to come to them? I resent hearing that its hypocritcal. How could it possibly be hypotcritcal? One abondoned children, avoided hundreds of notices and court hearings, but showed up for football tickets; the other simply provided justice that the first was avoiding.

    I'm sorry if my reaction seems harsh, but I like my students too much to even understand the sympathy.
     
  30. paperheart

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    He is an adult. An adult should handle responsibility no matter what. Not only did he have sex when he didn't want children, but he had sex with that particular woman and should have been more careful about the woman he chose. Regardless of why, how or what there is a child now. Why should the child pay for it?

    Besides, that situation is not the norm. Most woman aren't poking holes in condoms.

    I need to avoid this thread. It is too upsetting. I'm so disappointed in what I'm reading.
     
  31. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    I can't. The purpose of child support is supposed to be for the child. The child is still born, whether by mistake or intentionally or through deceit of one or more of the parties.

    I could see removing child support where the one who cares for the child is wealthy or otherwise fully supported, or in cases of formal adoption.

    Yes. That's reality. There are groups that want to change that, but frankly I think their ideas may lead to greater problems than currently exist.
     
  32. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Oh don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with the police acting on warrants that exist on these people who avoid child support payments. I see nothing wrong with how that happened in this case. I do think that the courts need to look a little more closely at each case before awarding child support. In cases of deceit, dishonesty, and trickery on the part of the mother, the man should have some sort of right to have that responsibility removed. The court should not consider this lightly, but the laws have not kept up with modern medical advances.

    In an effort to balance reproductive rights, which at one time were totally in the hands of men, we've reached a point where women have far more power and control where reproduction is concerned. (For example, in states that do not allow gay couples to adopt, lesbian couples still have the option of having children, while some of my dear friends, a loving, supportive, educated married couple cannot have children because they happen to both be men so neither of them can grow their own, so to speak.) I'm all for women's rights (I'm a Lucy Stoner and everything) but at some point with this it's swung too far in that direction. I'm for equal rights for men and women. The problem is, there's no easy fix under the current judicial framework.
     
  33. Aliceacc

    Aliceacc Multitudinous

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    I don't think this is about men vs. women.

    I think it's about negligient parent vs. children.

    And I side with the children.

    And on that note, it's time to bow out and go food shopping. Have a good day folks.
     
  34. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    I agree completely. We're stuck in this mess where law and medicine do not quite match up with each other, and there's not really an easy fix.

    I was not trying to imply that no man should pay child support ever. I certainly don't feel this way. (I've always suspected that my dad refused to divorce my mom until I was 18 so he could avoid paying child support and remain unemployed and live off my mom's salary from the three jobs she was working.) Certainly, in most of the cases, child support should be paid, or responsibility for child care should be split equitably, and this should be enforced by the law. Children should be cared for by those whose responsibility it is to do so. However, the current law on this has not kept up with changes in reproductive science and there are some rare cases where the laws we have now end up creating situations that are unjust. I have no clue how to fix the problem, but I was really just trying to point out the inequity that exists in reproductive rights. I see it as a separate, though connected, issue to the child support issue. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, as that was not my intent.
     
  35. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    There are many people who didn't intend to conceive. Something like 2/3 of all pregnancies in the US are unplanned. That means that neither party was anticipating a pregnancy. Does that mean that neither party should support the resulting child, since neither party wanted to have the child in the first place? That's silly.

    The fact is that once the child arrives, the parents need to take responsibility for it, and that includes financial responsibility. There are always things that happen that we don't anticipate, but we still have to work around them. I don't expect to break my leg tomorrow, but if I do then I will have to pay my medical bills. I can't decide to not pay my bills because the injury was unexpected. The injury is there, someone needs to pay for it, and that someone needs to be me. Same goes for the parent of a surprise kid. Someone needs to pay for it, and it needs to be the parent, not the taxpayers.

    In those very rare circumstances with condom destruction and phantom birth control bills, maybe there needs to be some precedent for the parties involved to go to court and ask for special consideration. I agree that someone who was actively deceived into producing a child shouldn't be responsible for support. I would argue, however, that those situations have got to be very, very uncommon.
     
  36. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    In addition, think of the precedent it would set to allow a man to say "oops, didn't mean to, I'm sure she poked a hole in the condom, I didn't want it". EVERY man would want to use that excuse. How would it be proven?

    It's basic sex ed-every time you have sex, you have the potential to make a baby, whether it's the first time or the thousandth time. Buy your own condoms, take care of your own procedures, and for goodness' sake, don't have sex with someone you wouldn't want to have a child with if that should occur.

    And if a child should result, man (or woman) up, and take care of him or her. That child had absolutely ZERO choice.
     
  37. Marci07

    Marci07 Devotee

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    :agreed:
     
  38. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    Well said, kc!!!

    My hubs pays child support. Of course, it's easy now because it's taken directly out of his paycheck so we never have to think about it. However, there have been times where we didn't make enough to pay all of our bills. There would be a month or two where child support wouldn't get paid (nothing like the $10,000 some of these guys had), but we always made sure to never go more than that. And, it's not as easy as getting it reduced. We've tried several times to get it reduced, but it never happens. So short of actually going to the courthouse and requesting a hearing for it (it's in TN, we're in TX), there's nothing we can really do but continue to pay it.

    And yes, it might sound harsh, but we are counting down the time until we no longer have to pay for her. Her mom is married, holds a full time job, and is doing quite well. The girl does not even know that my hubs exists I don't think.
     
  39. Speechy

    Speechy Comrade

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    Interesting responses. Is it awful that if I ever concieved a child and the father wasn't interested in helping out financial, I probably wouldn't take him to court? I mean, I would just pay for the child myself, seeing as how he/she would mine.

    I wouldn't try to force money out of someone who was hell bent on not paying, be it financial reasons or just lack of wanting to. But maybe that is just me...
    :whistle:
    Then again, I am in a place now where I can financially support one. I realize this isn't true for everyone and some really need that extra help.
     
  40. BettyRubble

    BettyRubble Rookie

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    I agree, but unfortunately, no birth control is 100%. I think the woman was completely in the wrong for tricking him, but there are always consequences to sex. I feel for your friend. That's a terrible situation to be in.

    Well said, kcjo. Solely relying on the female's birth control method is risky. Even if she was on the pill, he had a vasectomy, and used his own condoms that he knew were hole-free, pregnancy could still occur, though the chance would be much slimmer.
     
  41. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    You may be misunderstanding. My initial reaction to the video wasn't about those being arrested but instead the ethical and other implications of such operations.
     

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