Chick-fil-A

I get that, but sometimes the words that are getting picked apart don't really mean what they seem to mean.

Take "worship", for example. It's all over the Bible. In English, it sort of means to praise, to sing, to show devotion. The Greek word doesn't mean that. It means "grovel".

Even the word "love" doesn't really mean the same. In English, it's all about emotions and how you feel. In Greek, it's about how you act. The word for love is "agape", and it's more about charity, doing something for another person not because you have to but because it's the right thing to do. Feelings don't really play into it at all.

These examples are pretty small words. Imagine the problems that can happen when the words and phrases that are being picked apart are bigger and more complex. Adultery, sin, immorality, forgiveness....These words have slightly (and in some cases, very) different meanings in Koine and English. It's practically impossible to dissect the original meaning or the author's intent when there's not a clear, agreed-upon definition for each word.

 

Caesar, thanks for that. Recently my very-Christian stepmother told me (we have a very broken relationship- I believed she loved me "like a real daughter," but she didn't/couldn't and I found out later and felt like an idiot...) that she really does love me. She said, "Love to me isn't a sentimental feeling, it's a charge given me by God." I think she's right and she did study Latin. (does that even bear on the Greek origins?)

On the subject of homosexuality being condemned by g-d, why do Christians put such weight on this condemnation when there are literally dozens of other things g-d condemns that are not given a second thought?

We have women teachers, even university level and beyond, but g-d said women should never teach men.

Women should be silent in church and if they have a question, they should ask their husband privately later. Women talk in church All The Time!

Women should never have authority over men. We have women CEOs, managers, heck even Chick-fil-a probably has at least one man reporting to a women, right?

Why so strict on this one thing, the gay thing? It's political, that's why.

 

The Latin and Greek languages aren't really related, but the cultures share a great deal. A lot of the philosophies of the Greeks were absorbed by the Romans, and that's reflected in the language, if that makes sense. The thing that your stepmother said is pretty much in line with my understanding of "agape", at least as far as I've studied it.

As for the rest of your concerns, they are my own as well. I always hear people say that no one sin is worse than any other, but it sure seems that way. No one blinks an eye when someone wears a cotton/wool blend sweater (a big no-no in Leviticus!), but everyone gets all huffy when a woman wants to marry another woman. I just don't get it. Selective enforcement of the "rules", I suppose, whatever is most convenient for the person doing the enforcing.

 

Yeah, I think she might be on the edge of the spectrum of asperger's, too. She really does not have theory of mind. Wish I knew that BEFORE I grew up thinking I was the problem. LOL.

 

I don't know if you happened to see my post two-hundred and three pages ago, but I had this very discussion with my mother this week. She said she's sure God has changed his mind on his previous stance on females teaching/leading in the church otherwise too many things wouldn't get accomplished (think Sunday School, VBS, etc.). i asked immediately if perhaps God has changed his mind on homosexuality (working on the idea that he didn't approve) and her response was a quick "No, no, no..."

Apparently Mother and the man upstairs are tight. :haha:

 

Oops, I missed your posting. There are a few here! Your mother makes me laugh. In a kind of nervous way. Hope that's not offensive! My mothers make me feel the same way!

Maybe g-d changed his mind about polygamy, too. King David had many wives. KING DAVID. Jesus's ancestor. David was arguably g-d's favorite king.

Anyone remember the story of Jacob and Rachel? Jacob worked seven years to get a wife. Literally, worked for Rachel's dad so he could marry her. Somehow, her father gave him her sis, Leah, instead. Soooo.... Jacob kept Leah as his wife, slept with her, had kids with her, but worked another seven years to get Rachel, too. He got Rachel as his second wife, but g-d had cursed her for some reason so she could not have kids. Out of desperation to give Jacob a SON, Rachel sent Jacob to have sex with her slave. Jacob already had sons from Leah, but Rachel wanted him to have her baby so she gave him her slave because her property could give him a son even if she couldn't. This was g-d's plan for Jacob, to have many sons.

If you don't want to get thoroughly disgusted by the things g-d let happen to women, and then inspired men to write in the holy bible with no apparent shame, do not read about Lot and his daughters.

 

A good college friend of mine took me task on this very subject several years ago.

He pointed out (as you do) Christians constantly claim "no sin is bigger than another in the eyes of God", so why do Christians get so bent out of shape over homosexuality, but not nearly that upset over adultery (which was actually written in stone, unlike homosexuality).

Finally, he asked me point blank, "Aside from the Bible, what reasoning or logic can you give against homosexuality other than the "icky" feeling it gives you?" That's when I realized I really could not produce a logical argument against it, OTHER than the fact that it made me uncomfortable and I didn't like it.

I apologize to Mike or anyone else if they were offended by my friends choice of words, but in this case, it got his point across very effectively. If I removed the Bible from my argument, I really could not give a legitimate reason against homosexuality.

I had always thought my views were based upon my reading and understanding of the Bible and, to some degree, they were. But I also realized at least part of my views were NOT based on the Bible and I was just using the Bible to justify those views.

So I began to re-evaluate exactly what I believed and why and that is part of what led me to change my views on homosexuality.

 

Although I don'tagree with it, growing up in a religious household, I can answer the "bigger sin" thing. I think it all has to do with the fact that for other "sins" you can repent and be forgiven. With the adultery example, someone can commit adultery, later realize their mistake and repent and be forgiven for it just like anything else. My church taught that any sin was forgiven if you "truly repented and tried to change your life." So even with say an alcoholic, he or she might make the mistake again and slip back into the addiction, but when they "repent" they're making a conscious effort to change their life in regards to the alcoholism. However, with homosexuality being a "lifestyle choice", it's obviously not something that homosexuals would "repent" for and not something they're working towards changing, which makes it different from other sins. Again, I am not saying these are my beliefs, but just explaining what a fundamentalist Christian would believe as this would have been the teachings of my church.

Although there are bad apples in every bunch, I don't think it's fair to say Christians "hate gays" either. In fact, to follow the teachings of the bible they are supposed to love and accept everyone, regardless of their sin. One thing that separates protestants from other popular religious groups such as catholics is the fact that protestants are evangelical. I think this is one of the most misunderstood parts of the religion from "outsiders." They believe that it is truly their god-given duty to "go out and tell the world" about god. They are supposed to "save" others. People who are not "saved" are going to hell- no questions about it. So if you don't tell them about god, the bible, the church, etc. they're going to hell and it's your fault for letting them. I actually heard a comedian once that put this really well- he was saying that he was an athiest, but his best fried was a Christian. He always thought it was really cool of his friend to not "push" religion on him, until he realized that his friend thought he was going to hell and he didn't even care! They see this as the most all-important thing that you can do- even if you damage relationships here on earth trying to "save" people, you're giving them an opportunity at eternal life which means so much more. Just like anyone else, gay people fall into this category...people that are to be "saved."

Also, just to throw out there- my church also did not let women lead or teach adults. Women could teach children's classes or VBS, because they didn't consider children to be "men." However, if a woman wanted to lead a bible study, it had to be for other women only. They also weren't allowed to pass out communion or lead any part of the service (prayer, lead the choir or singing, etc.)

 

Waterfall, thanks for that. You reminded me of the one unforgivable sin, according to my grandma's church. Calling someone a fool. Lands you in he||.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

p.s. I was told that raca meant something like "worthless."

 

I believe, as a Christian, I am to witness. I'm not a salesman. I can tell others how being a Christian has changed my life for the better. I can ask somebody if they're Christian.

Yesterday, I heard on the radio a great analogy. If we enter a store and have a pushy salesperson rush over and be persistent about us buying the newest 3D HDTV, what will our reaction most likely be? Well, we'll probably do our best to avoid him...and if we can't... (he just sticks around and follows us around badgering us), we'll leave.

However, if the salesman comes over and says, "I own this TV and it's great. I love the vibrant colors and the sound is top-notch. Anyway, if you have any questions about this TV, or others... I'll be right over there. Feel free to ask." We're going to stick around...and we may even look at that TV differently. Why? Because we were given the FREEDOM to do that and not "pushed" into it.

That's how I'm going to lead my life with regards to telling others about my faith.

And regarding the "bigger sin" argument...while I believe we humans have given "values" to sins ("Murder is MUCH worse than a lie!"), in God's eyes, homosexuality is no worse than when I happen to gossip to a co-worker about another co-worker. (One major reason I refuse to cast stones at homosexual people. Hehe, in fact...most of them would have SO much more reason to cast stones at me!)

 

I brought up being 'uncomfortable' pages and pages ago. I can understand (but not agree) if people are against homosexuality because it makes them uncomfortable. I can respect that and hope that in time they grow and change.

I cannot respect people using the Bible when trying to justify their stance. It bothers me when people pick and choose what is OK and not OK in the Bible.

I was raised a Christian. I now define myself as religiously confused. There are just SO many things in the Bible that I cannot believe in. Plus the whole thing about evolution. I can't even define where I stand.

 

I saw a picture on facebook (one of those someecards) that had a man with the word 'unworthy' on his shirt, eating a chicken sandwich with the caption "You should stop praying and go eat a chiken sandwich in protest against people who live their lives differently than you," said no God ever.

 

Contrary to that cartoonist's belief, I can pray and eat at the same time. Also, I can support a fellow American's right to Freedom of Speech WITHOUT protesting against homosexuals' lifestyles.

Interestingly enough, I had only heard about CFA a few times prior to the pro-same-sex-marriage protests. Now, I can't drive down the street without seeing it on bumper stickers and I can't log onto Facebook without seeing it plastered on my newsfeed. Free advertising!

I know we may never know this, but it would be interesting to see how all of this affects sales for CFA (either positively or negatively).

 

Can the approximately .5% of people who are "intersex" marry anyone? People born with xxy chromosomes, or androgen insensitivity syndrome, or with some xy and some xx chromosomes? Who can they marry (or can't they)?

These are people who did not choose to be born without typically male or female reproductive systems. They were made that way, either by g-d or by nature. Where should the law fall on this inconvenient truth?

 

Oh, no...not offesive. I shake my head a lot.

Like when a five year old dies in a tragic accident and she says, "Hmmm, so sad. I just wonder what her parents did to cause this to happen..." (Meaning, the death was a punishment from God for the adults' behaviors.)

 

My Pastor brought this up during his sermon today. This particular portion of the sermon had to do with lifes obstacles.
He said,"I rarely comment on anything political, but this thing with chik-fil-a, really?" "I'm mean really, I like there food, give me a good chicken sandwich, but both sides look ridiculous."

 

Except for the lines of people at the Chick-fil-A buying food were there to support free speech and the mayors of 3 cities taking the attitude they plan to shut Chick-fil-A down for the beliefs of the owner and the charities they sponser. Just a bit unconstitutional. Even people that were gay were lining up in protest. Why? Because any group could be targeted for a city/state/federal government to disallow commerce due to difference of beliefs.

Seems your pastor missed the point of the protest on Wednesday.

 

Meh-much more interesting discussions have been shut down in less time.

 

Tweets about not wanting Chick-Fil-A to come closer to San Francisco than they are are not unconstitutional. Speaking of free speech, mayors are allowed to posture politically. It's their job.

 

Hm, what if it was something else besides a fast food restaurant? Should cities be able to keep strip clubs and porn shops out? If so, they're imposing their moral views as well. Just something to think about.

 

Mayors aren't trying to keep businesses out. They love businesses. It's political posturing. Please the gays, they are the majority, good thinking. Porn shops are not illegal. Neither are strip clubs or chicken restaurants. It is not illegal to protest a business who has different values than you do. Nothing bad is going on here.

 

I don't think cities should be able to keep a business out (even though I will not ever darken Chick-fil-A's door). But just fyi, some cities can and do ban porn shops and strip clubs at least to certain locations. Houston has an "adult use" ordinance that severely limits where these businesses can be located.

 

I actually think I get what he was saying. Someone posted a quote pages back about how this many people have never come out to feed the homeless, etc. The whole thing does sound kind of ridiculous.

I don't think any mayors were saying they would shut anyone down, just not authorize them to build in their cities. The mayor of Boston in particular I think had a point-they were the 1st to allow unions-people are supposed to come out of the courthouse and have to look at a business that ostracizes them. Certainly the risk you take in espousing your beliefs. It amazes me they cry how their freedoms are being taken away because they wouldn't be allowed in those cities. Their whole stance is about taking away freedoms!

 

Really, are you sure you don't just want to argue more? There are many words your response makes me want to say and yet I would just be fueling the fire, so good day.

 

To the mayor debate, university presidents were looking to remove CFAs from campus...

 

Yeah, I think there are zones in town here where the "adult" businesses are allowed. There's one called a "gentleman's club," which always makes me chuckle. Yeah, right.

 

CFA has never been on my list of favorite places, so I leave it alone. Now KFC use to be my fav chicken place BUT I do not go there anymore after they gave me some deep fried flour with hardly any chicken in them AND TRYING to pass them off as POPcorn CHICKEN. They were popped all right, just with hardly any of the MAIN INGREDIENT! Now! That is a reason to boycott a place!
When you do not get what you paid for then that is a legit reason to stop going to a place. The other reason too was they gave me some chicken at another time that tasted like it was day old and reheated. I never thought I would quit KFC, but I would rather get Wendy's wrap, that has two pieces of chicken in it.
Rebel1

 

I've never been to a Chick-Fil-A. They just are not around here. Plus, I can't stand eating meat off a bone. If I had to kill my own meals, I would be vegetarian for sure.

 

CFA is known for its chicken sandwich, which is bone-free and delicious. It's too bad that CFA pulled all this baloney. I really like their sandwich, but now I won't get it anymore. There are no CFAs where I live, so it's not a big deal, but it will be difficult when we go back to my hoosband's hometown in the South.

 

Denying someone's ability to have a business on the basis of religious or political beliefs of the owner is not legal. It eliminates the owners right to free speech without governmental repercussions.

Think about the implications of this for a minute. This means that a conservative city can deny business permits for any business whose owners mention that they have a liberal stance on any issue. So if a city decides that an owner is an athiest and mentions once in public that this is so, the city can deny that owner a permit to start a business regardless of the type of business it is. No McDonald's franchise for athiests. Not Baptist, no permit for you either. We only want Baptist businesses in our town.

That is the slippery slope of all of this regardless of your viewpoint on the idea of gay rights.

It is not ridiculous at all. It is probably one of the scariest things I have heard politically in a long time. It isn't a one sided issue. It could impact anyone depending on where you live and who becomes in charge at the time.

So, while the government may not be able to shut down a business with an existing permit, if they are willing to deny permits based on personal beliefs what will stop them from making any governmental business they must conduct be hostile to them.

 

Ridiculous in they way everyone is going about it-- as to having "appreciation" days at Chick-fil-A. All the posts on social networking sites on whether you are pro/anti-Chick-fil-A.

I'm not saying the argument is ridiculous, but certainly if people put all this energy they have in fighting for "family values" into actually helping people or curing cancer it would make more sense to me.

 

Just because you may think "family values" is less important than curing cancer doesn't mean everyone else does.

Chick-fil-a "appreciation" day was one small signal to the government that they can't trample the first amendment. In my opinion, and it is just that - my opinion, the first amendment not being trampled on and telling the government that it is not ok to do so whatever reason they may feel, is more important than my time trying to find a cure for cancer. Without free speech and the ability to have a legitimate business that follows the laws of the state, what will people of this country have?

Also, imho, family values is at the top of the list for me. Think about all of the posts that express the ills of society being broken families, lack of stable homes, promiscuity, diminishing moral values, dysfunctional families, etc. Really, that is the big arguement as to why there is so much poverty and such a broken society. That impacts more people than cancer does.

 

So you think preventing gay marriage helps more people than curing cancer would? Wow!

Well, I'm glad so many people turned out then, I'm sure many more families will be better off now. We'll just stop gay couples from getting married and we'll have no more poverty-makes sense to me.

 

Family values encompasses much more than just the "biblical view of marriage". So, yes. I do think strengthing family values at this point is more worth while for the average citizen than to fight for than the cure for cancer. Their time should be put into strengthening family values. Their effort will not stop the current effort for the cure for cancer, so it really isn't an either or proposition. But if I had to choose, I'd fight for family values anyday.

But as you know, Chick-fil-A "appreciation" day wasn't about family values. It was about the 1st amendment. So those people lining up were fighting for the constitution to be upheld. And yes, I believe upholding the constitution is extremely important and did more to help people than dontating a couple bucks to cancer research.

But then again, you may not give a darn about the constitution and the 1st amendment. Apparently you care more about cancer than the 1st amendment. And that is fine for you to do. But when the 1st amendment ceases to exist, we will no longer have the current government we have and you will be stripped of your right to your free speech without repercussion from the government.

 

So you think gay marriage is contrary to family values?

 

Yes, Mike. I do.

I also think that adultry is contrary to family values. I think promiscuity is contrary to family values. I believe becoming pregnant out of wedlock is contrary to family values. I believe lack of financial self-control is contrary to family values. I believe addiction is contrary to family values. I think poor communication or dysfunction in a family is contrary to family values.

I can go on.

 

Why would my family be contrary to family values?

I will have kids some day whether you like it or not. I think i will be a very good father. My kids will grow up in a loving home full of support.

What makes that so bad?

 

You really truly believe that all those people were there because they wanted to uphold the 1st Amendment and NOT because of their views on homosexuality? I find that very hard to believe only because ny matter how much I might want to defend Freedom of Speech I would NEVER even THINK of going to an establishment where the owner spews HATE and giving them a penny of my money in order to "defend" the constitution.

 

How was the government taking away Chick-fil-a's first amendment rights? How was the support for the Cathy's in any way about free speech? No one said they can't donate $2mil to DOMA politicians, nor did anyone say they can't operate. What is the connection?

 

I believe in the traditional family. I believe children optimally need a father and a mother role mother, preferably biological. Since I have also listed many different types of dysfunctions that are contrary to good family values you must also realize that any issue such as dsyfunction need to be corrected. I also believe in traditional family on religious grounds. Chick-fil-A's organizations spend most of their money on activities such as counseling for families and helping families become stronger and better. You may not agree with how they do it, but that is their charge.

I expect you will have kids someday if you say you will. I also didn't expect that I had control over you such that I could tell you not to do it. I didn't think you needed my permission. Yeah, I expect you think you will be a good father, and you will love your child.

By your choice your child will never have a mother figure. Just two dads. I believe that both mother and father are optimal.

So, we will have to disagree here because I'm sure that we will not see eye to eye. That doesn't mean I hate you. I don't hate my relative that has run off the rails doing all types of things that I disagree with. I just don't like the choices she is making.