Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by lovebeingteach, Sep 11, 2012.
Sep 12, 2012
Don't complain unless you teach in Wisconsin! All contracts null and void whenever!!
What mm says here is important. You can't compare a $70,000 average in teacher salaries (= statistical mean: sum of salaries divided by number of salaries) to a $45,000 median of incomes in the city. To do so is like comparing apples and aardvarks.
It may be recalled that average is the arithmetical mean: in this case, the sum of teacher salaries divided by the number of them (and does this include literacy coaches, or teachers on loan to the central office, or for that matter the rather remarkably large number of people CPS has on the books at 0.2 or 0.5 FTE, where 1 FTE is a full-time position). Median is the "number in the middle": if you arrange all the salaries in the city from lowest to highest, $45,000 is right in the middle.
I can get an average of $70,000 by adding $1000 + $1000 + $1000 + $277,000 - but this vastly overstates the wellbeing of the three poor schlocks who aren't making a quarter million. The median income in this case, however, is $1000, which is a good deal more representative of the majority. So the median tells me that half the population of Chicago has an income lower than $45,000 - but it also tells me that half the population has a higher income.
I am a resident of Chicago. Honestly, you and other teachers need to live under your means. The max for utility per month is $200. A 1 br apartment will only cost 1100 per month if you are strictly looking at Lincoln Park, Lakeview or Edgewater. The medium price for a 1 br is about 700-850 per month with heat and water included. Internet is about 30-50 per month depending on your package. As for your phone bill being $120 per month, that is a testament to your poor budgeting skills.
I also want to say something. $70 k in average salary is very misleading. A teacher will only get to that level after at least 10 years. The starting salary for a teacher with a master is about 50-53k a year.
Sep 13, 2012
Not flaming here but I have my masters in Ed. and have taught 33 years and have topped out at 52k. Just a note. When I told my wife this she said she went to Chicago once and said after 2 day she was going nuts. Said all she saw was concrete and tall buildings. She is a country girl and it was too urban for her.
Or the fact that my family is included on the plan and I pay for everyone. But thanks for making assumptions!
Also, if you are paying $700 with heat and water included you are living in a studio or a **** hole. No offense. I don't live in any of the neighborhoods you mentioned and the decent one bedrooms I've seen here run $900-1100 depending on square footage. Most don't include utilities. Sorry I'm not willing to live in a closet with roaches and rats. Already did that in undergrad.
In my CALIFORNIA district, 70k takes about 20-25 years to make. I'm in my 19th year and I don't make near that.
I don't want to derail this thread further. But, if the teachers' main goals are to make the classrooms smaller with more hired teachers and have ready textbooks for kids at the start of the school year, I will gladly support them. But, I feel that the main points of this strike are more money and automatic job security.
Here's a fun fact. Entry level analysts and accountants in Chicago are being paid bet 48-54k a year -- the same level as entry level CPS teachers. CPS teachers are well compensated for their work. That's a fact.
No. This is an opinion.
You're so out of line.
Good thing I never said my RENT was $1100. I said my rent and UTILITIES together equal $1100.
If you want an average rent breakdown by neighborhood, here is a web site I found:
As of August, 2012, average apartment rent within 10 miles of Chicago, IL is $1726.
One bedroom apartments in Chicago rent for $1549 a month on average and two bedroom apartment rents average $1975.
The average apartment rent over the prior 6 months in Chicago has increased by $92 (6%)
One bedroom units have increased by $64.5 (5%) and two bedroom apartments have increased by $106.5 (6%)
Another site (from 2011, mind you) with median rents showing $900+ for 1BRs: http://www.domu.com/blog/top-secret-apartment-data
News article from today: "It's Now Cheaper To Buy Than Rent" http://www.marketwatch.com/story/its-now-cheaper-to-buy-than-rent-trulia-2012-09-13
From the RedEye this past July: "Chicago's pain in the rent" http://articles.redeyechicago.com/2012-07-02/news/32511474_1_average-rent-vibe-bedroom
I could go on, but I wont. I can't really stop you from being judgmental of me when you don't even know me or my situation, but I DO take offense at your attack on teacher motives. The biggest issues of this strike have nothing to do with compensation. Continuing to spin the media rhetoric is not helpful.
Try coming to NC. We don't even have contracts.
$700-900 seems VERY low for rent in Chicago. I live in North Carolina (where people think it the COL is so low), and I paid $875 for a 1 bedroom!!!! Could I have rented for $650?- yup. If I wanted to get mugged every time I went to and from my car.
See though... you are being disengenuous everytime you or anybody says that it has "nothing to do with compensation". Turning down a 14-16% raise (and demanding practically double) says something entirely different.
BTW, let's get off this cost of living thing in the city. We don't want bickering to derail the thread... Though I lol'd at the phone/lack of budgeting remark.
The entire progressive movement which fought for shorter hours and safer working conditions.
"Demanding practically double"? Source, please, John Lee. And did you follow up on any of the links I posted to refute your assertion that strikes are only about compensation, or is that that you prefer to stoop to the disingenuousness that you allege so casually?
So, myself, my husband and my three children should live in a crappy 1-bedroom so that we can live under our means?
Why does no one ever say that business man, or plumbers, nurses, doctors, etc should live UNDER their means? I mean, ****, none of those people would exist if it weren't for teachers. Can we get a little respect, please?
I can't keep up with the inaccuracies and blatant lies.
I could be looking at an old salary scale, but the entry level Bachelor Degree teacher starts at $40405 in Chicago.
If Chicago is anything like Richmond, you stay on Step 1 for years 0-3. As you go up steps, they get longer (more years in one step. It takes a Chicago teacher 13 steps to get to $69k with only a Bachelors. I want to know where the "average" teacher making 70k comes from. Are there that many teachers OVER the 13th step?
and 13th step here is at least 25 years+.
How can we expect respect and understanding from the public, the media and the government if we can't give it to each other?
I think we should all stop feeding the trolls. No one is changing any minds on the internet.
But they didn't turn down that raise. They agreed to accept that figure. They wanted the raise that was promised to them, and then rescinded, and they wanted fair compensation for the fact that their work days were increased by 20% without any change in salary. Would you agree to work that much more without any additional compensation? I wouldn't. So, the Chicago teachers actually agreed to a decrease in compensation if computed hourly. Tell me again how this is about money?
I agree with you, but I would just add one more profession before any of these......Politicians!!
I tried, but unfortunately I believe they were dead links so I went to bed.
Look, I'm not anti-teacher. I am in the profession after all. Nor am I anti-organized labor, since I am one of the worker bees that would benefit from a collective voice. And I have not even said I'm against this teacher union and their stance.
What I am though, is thoughtful. I don't sit and swallow whatever I'm fed (i.e. by my union). Admittedly, I don't know many details beyond what I read... but I do know that IL is a state not unlike mine (CA). It's broke, with no sign of getting better. And in fact, things look bound to get worse. I also look at the fact that since this recession started, NO major district (again, in my state... very similar in circumstance to IL) is hiring on any substantial level. What that means is that we have a situation where there are hundreds of applicants for every position that happens to pop up (laid-off folks, new teacher candidates). These are people who's careers and lives are in limbo year after year.
While I'm not against the teachers in this case, I am decidedly FOR teachers as I mentioned--those abandoned by their own profession. This strike does nothing for those people.
Nobody is trolling or lying. It is a fact that an entry level teacher with a master in Chicago starts at 51k a year along with other benefits. An entry level teacher with a BA starts 4-5k lower. But, you move up a step with each passing year.
Each increase in step comes with a 2.3-2.8k in salary increase. So, a teacher with ten years of experience will be at step 10, meaning 23-27k higher than entry level salary. That comes to about 70k a year. That is how the CPS works.
You are not from Chicago. Chicago teachers get paid well in comparison to the private sector here. I am going to do a little math for you.
If you are a tenure CPS teacher with at least 4-6 years of experience, you are making close to 60k a year. Once you take out the deduction and tax, you are roughly left with 45k a year. Let's say that your husband makes roughly the same. Therefore, as a family, you are making a bet of 90k a year after all deductions and taxes.
The average price for a home in a safe neighborhood is about 200-280k. Your real estate tax bill is about 6k a year. After subtracting your real estate tax bill, you have about 84k left to spend. Assuming a 20% down payment and you take out a 30 yr fixed mortgage, you are putting about 12-15k a year into that house, leaving you with about 70k for utilities, gas, food, and fun time.
In conclusion, you are hardly broke. Teachers in other parts of the US might be under-compensated, but not Chicago.
That is the 2006 salary. CPS teachers were given a raise of roughly 4% for the next 3-4 years. If you do the compounding math, you would arrive at roughly 47k for teachers with a BA and 51k for teachers with a MA.
There aren't any trolls in this thread. The other thread was started under false names, with no real intention of becoming involved in a discussion.
You joined less than a month ago, have less than 20 posts, many on this thread, and have done nothing but be pretty disrespectful and rude, beyond just disagreeing. That equals trolling in my mind.
Sep 14, 2012
The PBS link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/hoover-workers-strike/) was very much alive as of 8 pm last night and is very much alive now. As I said last night, it's on the strike by workers building Boulder (Hoover) Dam: "Workers decided that the time was ripe, not just to protest the pay cut, but to list their grievances and issue demands. Among them: that clean water and flush toilets be provided, that ice water be readily available to workers, and that Six Companies obey all mining laws issued by the States of Nevada and Arizona."
Water, toilets, and compliance with mining laws weren't wage issues, the last time I checked.
As for the other two, I'll repost; the forum software decided that the colon I added was part of the link - but they are very much alive as I type.
http://www.history.com/topics/strikes says this:
"The most popular strike demands have historically been higher wages, shorter hours or safer working conditions." Only one of those has to do with pay.
Edsitement at http://edsitement.neh.gov/lesson-plan/industrial-age-america-sweatshops-steel-mills-and-factories says this: "About a century has passed since the events at the center of this lesson—the Haymarket Affair, the Homestead Strike, and the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. For some people in our nation, these incidents illustrated the unfair conditions faced by workers as the United States assumed its position as the most highly industrialized nation in the world. For others, they demonstrated the difficulty of managing industries. Such disagreements continue to this day. Where do we draw the line between acceptable business practices and unacceptable working conditions? Can an industrial—and indeed a post-industrial—economy succeed without taking advantage of those who do the work?"
I'll also give you another link, this one from - of all places - Fox Business; http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/08/09/10-biggest-strikes-in-american-history/ lists the ten biggest strikes in American history and, even by Fox's descriptions, only the Railroad Shop Workers Strike of 1922 was solely about wages.
The New York Shirtwaist Strike of 1909, also known as the Uprising of the 20,000, preceded the infamous Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire; http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/uprising-of-20000-1909 reports that among the outcomes of the strike were "a fifty-two-hour week, at least four holidays with pay per year, no discrimination against union loyalists, provision of tools and materials without fee, equal division of work during slack seasons, and negotiation of wages with employees." The workweek had been 65 to 75 hours per week during the busy season, workers had been expected to provide their own needles, thread, and even sewing machines. Since workers were locked into the facility during their shifts, they had to ask permission to go to the bathroom.
I trust I've established that it's not only quite possible but indeed rather common to strike for reasons not all of which involve pay.
Oh, and I've checked the links as they stand in this post. They all work.
And those people trying to support a family on one income? This is an awfully outdated mindset that teachers are female and supported by their spouse.... In fact, isn't this the original reason for teacher's being underpaid historically?
I don't understand your point. My post was in reply to a poster who is a female teacher with a family. It is just a logical assumption to say that her spouse makes roughly the same as her. Even if her spouse is unemployed, an income of roughly 45k after deductions and taxes is enough to support her spouse and two other kids. It will be tight but doable.
There are at least 50% of families in Chicago who get by with less. Teaching is a passion for a lot of people. In most cases, teachers don't decide on this profession to get rich, but just enough compensation to support their family and have a little extra to put away for a rainy day. You can skew the argument all you want. But 60k a year for a teacher with 4-6 years of experience in Chicago is solid. There are plenty of teachers in other districts of Cali and NJ with higher costs of living and lower salaries.
We will judge the CTU intentions by observing the final results. The CTU can bs all about how this strike is for other things to improve the education of children. If that is their intention, they will lower their demands for higher salaries in order to compensate for newer textbooks and smaller classrooms. If the end results is just higher salaries, we will know it is just an act.
I don't understand why they should lower their demands for higher salaries. Lets say that the average American workers were suddenly told that they had to work 48 hours every week instead of 40, but their hourly rates would be adjusted so that they would not be getting paid anymore. Would the country be so up in arms because those workers demanded to be paid for their time? I'd be very surprised if we didn't see an outcry about the greedy business that forced those conditions upon workers. Somehow though, when it comes to teachers, that's perfectly okay.
Chicago teachers have already agreed to what amounts to a reduction in hourly wages. They agreed to take 16% spread out over 4 years, to work a 20% longer day. On that note, that agreement was in place before the strike.
Separate names with a comma.