Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, at least 5 killed

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by Irishdave, Jan 8, 2011.

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  1. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    Jan 9, 2011

    Murder of Gabe Zimmerman ... Federal charges
    Murder of U.S. District Judge John Roll ... Federal charges
    Murder of 9-year-old Christina Taylor Green ..... State charges
    Murder of Dorwin Stoddard, 76 ..... State charges
    Murder of Dorthy Murray, 76 ..... State charges
    Murder of Phyllis Schneck, 79 ..... State charges
    Wounding of Pam Simon a part-time community outreach worker and former teacher ... Federal charges
    Wounding of Rep. Gabrielle Gifford ... Federal charges
    Wounding of Ron Barber ... Federal charges
     
  2. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    "Investigators have ruled out the involvement of a cab driver they say transported Loughner to the event, and whose picture was captured on a Safeway videotape. Authorities sought him as person of interest but ruled him out after they determined he was in the store with Loughner because he was awaiting cash from him, authorities said."
     
  3. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    I figured there would be a division between federal and state. Same thing happened with the Suburban Snipers.
     
  4. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    Thanks for the update. Court tomorrow at 4pm....FRY HIM!!!!
     
  5. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    I don't think he was planning to be alive today.
     
  6. Kat53

    Kat53 Devotee

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    Jan 9, 2011

    BTW it's on Dateline right now.
     
  7. Danny'sNanny

    Danny'sNanny Connoisseur

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    Jan 9, 2011

    So, we will be having a moment of silence tomorrow.

    Need to talk with my little ones about it in the morning. Considering it happened about 20 minutes away (on the other side of town), I'm betting they have all heard about it at least.

    Any ideas on how to approach it/ what to say/ etc?
     
  8. donziejo

    donziejo Devotee

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    Jan 9, 2011

    Watching thanks Kat
     
  9. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Jan 9, 2011

    Yes, she mentioned the graphic and called it irresponsible. She did stop short, albeit just barely, of blaming Palin's poster on the vandalism of her office.

    Of course, she also acknowledged her office had been the site of heated protests for several months. Long before Palin posted her metaphorical graphic on her FB page. It is very obvious many of her constituents were NOT happy with her support of the Health Care Law and that was the cause for the vandalism.

    I'm not saying it was wrong for her to support the bill, but obviously many of the citizens in her district felt it was and they reacted when she still supported the bill despite their months of protesting. I do not condone their actions in any way, but I also don't deflect the blame for those actions towards any source other than Representative Giffords vote.

    In hindsight, even though Palin's graphic was obviously metaphorical (to any rational person), it does appear to have been in poor taste and she could have found a better way to express the same message.

    Then again, she was only using the same tactics employed by the Democratic Leadership Council in 2004 and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee in 02/2010. Those maps (complete with bullseye targets and militant language) can be viewed here --> Outside the Beltway

    Let's also not forget that Obama himself has been guilty of inflammatory rhetoric. During the campaign, he made the famous quote "If they bring a knife to the fight, we will bring a gun".

    During the BP disaster, he said "We talk to these folks so I know whose ass to kick".

    Both of those could easily be misconstrued as inciting violence towards opponents or those you disagree with, especially given the level of frustration and anger among Gulf Coast residents who saw their livelihoods being destroyed by the oil spill.

    I watched CNN for several hours today (we're supposed to keep the TV on a "news channel" in the hotel lobby). They discussed the topic of political rhetoric in general and Palin's graphic in particular on Reliable Sources. The general consensus is that Palin's poster had no affect at all on the attack of Gabby Grifford and is no more inflammatory than countless other examples of political rhetoric used by both sides. There was also a general consensus that perhaps both sides should consider toning the rhetoric down a few notches, but let's not kid ourselves that anyone actually expects that to happen.
     
  10. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Jan 9, 2011

    I'm sure the kids have heard about it...when the 9/11 terrorist attacks occurred,my kids came in buzzing about it... ( My district is in NJ just up the highway 2 exits from the GW Bridge and many community workers had helped in the rescue and recovery efforts)...I gathered them for a class meeting and asked if anyone had anything they wanted to talk about..after a lost tooth story and some other benign anecdote, some student said he saw planes crash into a building on the tv...that opened up the door...everyone had something to say...some of it colored by family rhetoric...I summarized the story simply and then focused on how there were so many more good people in the world than bad...I think that's the most important message to focus on with young students.
     
  11. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    As a layman I think this will be a "Guilty but insane" case.
    he will not be sentenced to death.
    I would hope it would be a capital case but he does seem "a few fries short of a happy meal"
     
  12. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    That will concern me if they find him "insane" especially since there is evidence to show this was planned.....

    I watched Dateline (?) tonight. Made me cry. They sure were on the ball about this whole thing. In 24 hrs they were able to create an hour long program..I'm impressed.
     
  13. Kat53

    Kat53 Devotee

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    Dateline was good. I was also suprised how much information they were able to gather in such a short amount of time. I was really sad listening to the parents talk about their daughter that was killed.
    I was especially creeped out to hear that he had previous contact with Giffords. He had gone to an event where she was speaking before and they found letters (or emails?) she had written to him, thanking him for coming. It just makes me wonder how long he was interested in her. Was he really concerned about the politics? Was he stalking her? Just creepy!
     
  14. monsieurteacher

    monsieurteacher Aficionado

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    Jan 10, 2011

    Just because it was planned doesn't make him sane.
     
  15. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Jan 10, 2011

    Anyone listen to talk (hate) radio. They remind me of the kids that instigate fights at school and then step back and watch the fun. We have crazies in this country and those hate mongers in the media just fan the flames. I am really surprised that no one has gone after the pres or Pelosi with all the stuff Ive heard pitched at them. As for the pos that gunned those innocents down he should be........................
     
  16. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    ok.....honestly I"m tired of the "insanity" deal....with anyone. Of course a person that commits a vicious act is INSANE. No sane person (such as myself) would do something like that. There should be no slap on the wrist NO MATTER WHAT.
     
  17. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    I don't listen to talk radio because it is - as you say - nothing more than "hate" radio. Limbaugh used to have some credibility when he first became nationally known, but has since become nothing but an arrogant buffoon with an insatiable ego. His comments don't even qualify as rhetoric. They are pure vitriol and really stretch the boundaries of "free speech", in my opinion.

    I don't know how any rational person could listen to him for more than a few minutes, much less actually agree with the hatred he spews out. The fact that thousands of citizens do just that IS disheartening AND frightening at the same time.
     
  18. Sarge

    Sarge Enthusiast

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    Limbaugh has nothing on Michael Savage in that department.

    This is just one example.

    What's more troubling, in my opinion, is exactly HOW these people get on the air and land their multimillion dollar contracts and book deals. The world has no shortage of obnoxious, arrogant, buffoons. But they shouldn't get paid millions of dollars as a result.
     
  19. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    My Opinion is if you don't want to hear it you don't tune into it!
    I do not listen to Dr Savage I listen only a little to Limbaugh and catch Beck when in my car. I want them on the air so people have a choice as to what they want to hear and/or watch. I can't stand MSNBC but do I want them off the air? No because they create a balance.
    The question is in our open market place why didn't Air America make it, It had progressive or liberal talk programming?
    If you have a good product "if you build it they will come." almost all talk radio on air personalities have taken the long road to get where they are. If they did not have the listenership or viewership they would not be there.
    Generalizations Radio is Conservative (to the right). TV is Liberal (to the left)
    In a five year old UCLA-led study Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist
     
  20. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Great. The shooter is refusing to cooperate with the police. You'd think he'd want to tell everyone about his plans. Guess he was hoping to not live with the consequences.
     
  21. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Actually, the legal standards for the insanity defense vary, but they're not easy to satisfy (e.g., just being schizophrenic doesn't do it). And this guy's actions before and after the shooting are limiting his ability to actually use it successfully.

    Most states work off the M'Naghten rules, which allow an insanity defense if the person could not have known whether an act was right or wrong, or did not understand the nature of the act. A few also use the "irresistible impulse" rules. Neither applies particularly well here since he noted to his friends, "Don't hate me" on his FB page (so he knew it was wrong) and he planned it out (so it wasn't just an impulse).

    catnfiddle, his refusing to cooperate with police is putting him yet further from any insanity defense.
     
  22. lilmisses1014

    lilmisses1014 Comrade

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    Jan 10, 2011

    Loughner's mug shot gives me the creeps. What a sick b@st@rd.

    As far as the Westboro freaks (that's me being nice) are concerned, one of my FB fan group pages created an event page calling for people in the area to show up to Christina Green's funeral. They want to create a human wall barrier around the block and to take up parking spaces near the church to try to keep these scumbags away from the church.
     
  23. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    I am watching CNN, Anderson Cooper, as he interviews different people. He just interviewed the parents of the 9-year-old victim. How heartbreaking. She was the same age as my daughter. What a nightmare for that little girl's parents.
     
  24. TeacherApr

    TeacherApr Groupie

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    That's a great idea! I hope they will be successful with this.
     
  25. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    I am thinking of driving down to Tucson to attend the memorial service, if I can afford the gas.
     
  26. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    There is a group called Patriot Guard Riders that attends military funerals specifically to help serve as a barrier between the grieving family and Westboro's "family".

    Their website doesn't list Christina Green's name, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them show up. :thumb:
     
  27. HMM

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    They don't really create balance, they create extremism.

    I don't think 'good' is the right word here.
     
  28. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Not meaning to be the Thought Police, but this argument is going to get the topic shut down.
     
  29. kcjo13

    kcjo13 Phenom

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    You're right, cat, but it's going to be shut down anyway, cause it's in Debates.

    Just a thought, mods, I know that long running threads automatically go to Debates, but sometimes they are still valid and worthy of discussion. Is there any way to change that policy to a case by case basis?
     
  30. ku_alum

    ku_alum Aficionado

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    My father is Patriot Guard. He travels all over on his motorcycle to serve.
     
  31. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Regarding the balance argument, I occasionally go to kcna.jp just to see what the North Korean "news" service (i.e., government press) says. There's nothing about it that creates a "balance", though -- it's simply painfully transparent government-fed lies (it's kind of funny, actually -- they keep a historical archive online).

    Anyway, I think conservative thought in general has a potential to create balance, but I question seriously whether many of the most well-known pundits are currently doing that.
     
  32. INteacher

    INteacher Aficionado

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    :hugs: and :love: to your father ku
     
  33. ku_alum

    ku_alum Aficionado

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    Thanks, IN. As a war veteran, it is a very meaningful experience for him to continue to serve in this capacity. Seeing all of those men and women involved to protect families is pretty moving.
     
  34. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    It is all relative, to get balance you have to be able to reason and weight the so call "facts" from each side.
    The words "good" & "balance" relative to perceptive.
    Some republicans considered McCain a liberal and some democrats considered Rep. Giffords conservative.
    Some feel Balance is when the other side comes over completely to their side.

     
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