Are all subs like this?

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by AdamnJakesMommy, Feb 23, 2014.

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  1. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    Some of you teachers (certainly not all) seem to hold Subs in great disdain. Could it be that you suffer from a superiority complex?

    There are good Subs and bad Subs. There are good teachers and bad teachers. Which are you? :2cents:
     
  2. Elocin

    Elocin Comrade

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    Same here. My students are usually (unfortunately) VERY disrespectful to subs no matter how much I try to pep talk them. And my admin does nothing when students are out of control or disrespectful to subs so as long as they can keep everyone from getting hurt and they aren't showing a movie, I am happy.
     
  3. i8myhomework

    i8myhomework Comrade

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    I've never had a sub not follow directions. They normally come in, sub, and leave with no problems. If they have questions my aide is normally there to guide them, which may be the reason why there have never been any issues. I also try to make my plans as easy as possible to follow. Yes, I have my own routine but unless I have a repeat sub I can't expect them to know everything about how my class works.

    I'm never usually out for more than a day at a time. So if my plans weren't followed to a tee... I would let it go. It's just a day. I doubt my students would suffer any permanent damage and I would get the class back on track the next day.

    My sub I had on Valentine's day was a godsend! I took a personal leave that day and she not only carried out my activities but even brought in a few of her own. It made the day more fun for my students. Nothing wrong with a sub adding their own flavor.
     
  4. bora

    bora Rookie

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    As a sub I try to follow teachers lesson plans. If I make a change is because kids are being very loud, not following directions and I know is not going to work. So I have no choice but to make a ''change'' that will work for me and for them. Unfortunately, we have seen kids being very disrespectful to their subs. Kids do not respond the same to subs, as they do to their teacher.
    I was in a kindergarten class once. It was a challenge for me even to go from one activity to another. It took me longer than 15 minutes just to have them all on the carpet for reading aloud. They were just out of control. I felt like I was babysitting there and not teaching. :( I am pretty sure that they were not like that with their own teacher.
     
  5. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

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    I subbed while attending college & then for half a year before landing a full time position where I did my subbing.
    I would follow the plans best I could.. Like someone said because it is a new environment for all in class some things may take a little longer. I would leave a detailed note of any problems where I'd left things.

    As I subbed more teachers would ask me to cover...now that was a good/bad thing. They would get comfortable and may not leave as good of notes. One time I was asked to cover for a teacher who was sick on Monday & ended up being out whole week...but lesson plans got less as week progresses, plus it was before Mother's Day that Sunday...so I wanted to come up with Mother's Day gift (which I did) & students loved it. But this teacher had nothing for Mother's!
    Another time the teacher left so much, basically wanted me to do all the catch up work...it was impossible to get done! I even as co workers!
    Also some subs just think their way or highway...I had a sub a Long term when I had my class...she told me everything will be different when you get back. So there are some who get on their own power trip as well!!!

    I always brought things extra to do...Student's are also interested in little things. I was surprised even a 6th grade class was interested in learning to count in Japanese (I knew how to)!

    Subs are always told to be flexible, but the teacher's need to be as well!
     
  6. LisaLisa

    LisaLisa Companion

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    I agree. It really depends on the class and the sub plans. I used to have an arsenal of sponge activities just in case.
     
  7. Greetwlove

    Greetwlove Rookie

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    Impossible for someone to replicate you EXACTLY
     
  8. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Companion

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    The classroom teacher can win. Leave a detailed plan, but accept that the sub may do things different. As long as things get done, why does it matter it's not done in your way? From reading this thread, some teachers have a serous issue with control (which I guess is understandable considering the profession).
     
  9. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Companion

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    Speaking of subs, I was out Friday on an unplanned sickness. I remember HATING subbing for teachers who take unplanned sick days because you know they will have the worst plans due to the nature of the absence.

    But I didn't want to be that teacher. I took the time to type up a detailed lesson plan but also made it simple and e-mailed it to the secretary. Basically, give the students one worksheet (give them 20-30 minutes) and tell them it will be counted as a quiz. And since I know the time will vary, I gave the sub all the info needed to show an education video. What did he do? Gave my students ALL the worksheets on my desk. This whole week's worth of stuff. Stuff I haven't taught them yet. They spent the whole period working on it. The tables in my room were shuffled. I specifically said, don't let them move seats. Things are missing from my desk.

    Holy crap. But does this really change my mind about subs? Nah. Just this one. I've had others who were great before him. I will continue to leave detailed plans and as long as what I asked gets done, the sub can do it whichever way he wants. This particular sub didn't do what I wanted period.
     
  10. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    The issue I'm addressing isn't about times when plans aren't left; the issue is that sometimes some subs disregard the plans that are left. I honestly can't believe that people here are saying that it's okay for a sub to disregard plans left by a teacher, change things up, be "creative", and "do things their own way". I don't think that expecting a sub to follow plans is grounds to suggest that a teacher has "control issues". This is getting ridiculous. I must be missing something here.
     
  11. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Companion

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    Yeah, we're arguing about different scenarios. If a sub disregards plans completely, then yes the sub sucks. I'm talking about teachers who leave detailed plans, and expecting subs to mimic them exactly. When they don't, the teacher gets upset. That to me is unrealistic and selfish. Why selfish? We were all new teachers at one point trying to look for a full time teaching job. Now that we're here, we should be helping other teachers. Sure some subs don't have ambitions to be a teacher. But good chances are they do. Help them out and allow them some freedom to express their creativity. As long as they get through the tasks, let them have some room in deciding how to get there. It's the "my way or the highway" attitude that I rolling my eyes at.
     
  12. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    I think the next time I'm out, I'm just going to write this in my sub plans: "In my absence, I'd like you to teach the Latin passive periphrastic. I assume that you want a lot of professional freedom and that you want to test your teaching skills on my students, so I'll leave it up to you to decide how best to teach the lesson. Go ahead and get creative! I'm sure my students will benefit. After all, the most important thing here is not that they learn the material but that you have a chance to feel free to express yourself as a sub."
     
  13. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Companion

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    Great idea. But your plan should more follow this:

    -I'm sorry I'm out, but thanks for coming!
    -Please have students read/re-read xxxxxx indiivdually. If you are familiar with this piece of work, feel free to let them know you can try to help them with any questions. If not, no worries!
    -Have students complete this worksheet. I usually have them work in pairs, but if you want them to work individually, up to you!


    We all know, you're an expert in your field. No one can teach like the way you want and no one is suggesting a sub should. Deflate that ego. Leave work for the sub that is simple for him/her to follow. Don't be anal-retentive and suggest the sub MUST do it EXACTLY your way PERIOD.
     
  14. bora

    bora Rookie

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    All I know is that teachers try to leave us easy lesson plans so we will not get confused, and I appreciate that, but if we can add some more "flavor" what's wrong with that?! I don't think teachers will mind as long as is in their students interest.
     
  15. 2ndTimeAround

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    In my field, science, there are a lot of people that think they know stuff but they really don't. They misremember or were flat out told wrong.

    I had a sub tell my class that blue eyes are recessive and brown eyes are dominant. Now, I went over how eye color is inherited when I returned but the sub was so adament about the "fact", elaborating with some story from her family that many students remembered her version instead of mine. It wasn't until after the test that I learned what had happened.

    So getting creative and helping can actually be harmful. I'd rather my subs maintain order and facilitate, not attempt to teach.
     
  16. Greetwlove

    Greetwlove Rookie

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    Yes, you are "missing something" JoeShmoe expressed it perfectly and succinctly
     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    1. Aside from your spelling errors, your suggested plans are actually fairly similar to the plans I leave. You are making a lot of assumptions about me, my classroom, and my plans.

    2. It is one thing to have the "freedom" to decide whether students work in pairs or individually. It is quite another to decide that the activity a teacher left is not appropriate for whatever reason. The example in this thread was popcorn reading, which the sub evidently didn't do. That's not a choice that should be up to the sub. My point is that the teacher is the one who gets to decide the activity. And, quite frankly, the teacher is the one who gets to decide everything else. It's awesome if you get a teacher who gives you the freedom you so desperately crave, but I think it's unfair to begrudge a teacher who doesn't. Many teachers, myself included, believe that we are doing subs a favor by clearly defining and delineating our plans. The subs who are complaining about a lack of freedom are the same ones who complain about how hard it is to enter a classroom when you don't know how things work. Well, when a teacher tries to tell you how things work, explicitly, in writing, in lesson plans, you call it micro-managing and the teachers control freaks. That's unfair and unprofessional.

    I don't feel like I'm being heard here. Deuces, y'all. I'm out.
     
  18. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    This kind of just confuses the heck out of me. I don't see how it's difficult to understand that a teacher may have a reason behind his or her choice of methods, procedures, and general teaching strategies.

    Every single time there is a thread like this, it boils down to teachers thinking they are better human beings than substitute teachers. And that's a ridiculous stretch.

    I have two subs I try to get in my classroom. I trust them. I put another sub on my poop list this year because she did not follow my lesson plans and she had done the same in two colleagues' classrooms. If you screw things up because you make a mistake...eh, things happen. If you screw things up because you decide you know better about my students' need than I do, then you wil not be called back.
     
  19. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Um, nope. Who is ultimately responsible for the students' learning? Not the sub. Sorry, for most teaching tasks I need the sub to teach as described. Save the creativity for VBS, I guess...
     
  20. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    I don't think I'm a better human being than substitutes. I do think that I know my kids better than them, I know the specific grade-level content better, I know what works better, and I certainly know the routines and procedures of my classroom better.
     
  21. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    No one expects this. I'm not going to exactly replicate Bobby Flay's BEEF & GOAT CHEESE EMPANADA WITH PIQUILLO PEPPERS, but I can do my best to follow his recipe and come out with something like his and darn tasty...I might even swap out for a different pepper or cheese but I'm not going completely out of the box if my goal is to deliver a reasonable copy of his recipe....
    Same thing with subbing...a sub doesn't know my kids, might not know what questions to ask to bring out critical thinking, might not know my multiplication tricks, but I do expect my plans to be REASONABLY followed so as to deliver a 'reasonable facsimile' of what I outlined...i don't think that's expecting too much.
     
  22. bora

    bora Rookie

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    I thought brown eyes were dominant and blue eyes recessive. That's how I remember from high school's Biology. Has been a long time since then so I may be wrong.
     
  23. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

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    That is what I always tried to do... I even went in telling students I may not do it exactly like your teacher, but I'm not your regular teacher...so help me out & we'll get through the day together!
     
  24. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Brown is dominant (B) and blue is recessive (b)

    Someone with brown eyes can be BB or Bb, while blue eyes can only be bb. So brown eyed parents with both Bb can have a blue eyed offspring even though blue is recessive.

    Maybe we're not clearly understanding the original post on this...I do agree that going off plan, especially with new untaught material, can be confusing at best...see my earlier pst about measuring! I'm sure my sub know how to measure to fractional arts f an inch...she didn't know my kids' readiness, she didn't know how to teach the concept well, and she went totally off plan...leaving me with major reteaching...
     
  25. DizneeTeachR

    DizneeTeachR Virtuoso

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    Cza.. thanks for the refresher... it's funny when you think of own family and the genes pool eye color plays out! LOL!!!
     
  26. 2ndTimeAround

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    And that's my point exactly. You would probably have no problem sharing that with my classes if someone asked. This particular sub decided to tell my students how to complete Punnett squares using that example in my classroom. She had no idea that I was teaching P. squares the next day and that there is a particular way to approach the lesson. She just remembered how to do it and when the kids were working on vocabulary took it upon herself to teach them. Then went on to tell a story about a paternity issue that sealed the deal. It caused a whole bunch of work for me and a lot of confusion.
     
  27. 2ndTimeAround

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    No, sadly, that is a common misconception that has been repeated so many times that people assume it to be true.

    Eye color is polygenic. There are multiple genes that determine eye color, with each gene contributing pigmentation or not. The more genes that are turned "on" with pigmentation, the darker the eye color. Even that explanation is simplistic.

    Telling high school students, who are not that far away from becoming parents, that blue eyes are recessive to brown can be dangerous. Someday they'll come across a brown-eyed child of two blue-eyed parents and make accusations.

    http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mytheyecolor.html

    And that's why people should really stick to the content the teacher has left in his/her absence.
     
  28. mr_post22

    mr_post22 Companion

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    That is why I try to find subs who I know. Especially of you take a lot of days off.
     
  29. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Hence my caveat:

    'Maybe we're not clearly understanding the original post on this...I do agree that going off plan, especially with new untaught material, can be confusing at best...see my earlier pst about measuring! I'm sure my sub know how to measure to fractional arts of an inch...she didn't know my kids' readiness, she didn't know how to teach the concept well, and she went totally off plan...leaving me with major reteaching...'
     
  30. bora

    bora Rookie

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    Well you are right. She went too far. I would never teach kids something new or different from what I am asked to do.
     
  31. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    I posted this earlier today ..... then took the day off to go cross country skiing .... No one responded (that I'm aware of) ..... and that's ok.

    "Some of you teachers (certainly not all) seem to hold Subs in great disdain. Could it be that you suffer from a superiority complex?

    There are good Subs and bad Subs. There are good teachers and bad teachers. Which are you? :2cents:"


    Sooooooo, why do I feel that many teachers look down on Subs? Why do I feel that (some) feel superior to Subs. Is it because they actually feel that way? Remember folks a lot of the members in this forum are Subs.... and some of your comments probably are painful to them.
     
  32. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    Have you read all the replies, Major? It's not that teachers feel superior to subs, but teachers do put effort into planning for subs (most of the time...yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post there are plenty of stories subs can tell about missing or sketchy plans)... Teachers know their kids. Teachers know what they've taught, what their kids know, what their kids are ready for, what their kids can handle in terms of deviations from 'the plan' and where we are going next as a class... Teachers are ultimately responsible for student learning and achievement...not a short term sub. Not only are teachers responsible, but in MANY CASES, teachers are evaluated on student learning. To have a sub upset a carefully designed apple cart in one day leaving a teacher with misconceptions, misunderstandings, and just plain bad info ( see earlier posts on genetics and measurement ) is a hardship for both teachers and students, not to mention a complete waste of time had the sub simply followed the plan. It's not about superiority...it's about better knowing our students and the journey they're on...even the best sub in the wrld can't discern all of that complexity in a 7 hour day...no matter how well intentioned, educated or intuitive they are.:2cents:
     
  33. giraffe326

    giraffe326 Virtuoso

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    I subbed in 2006-2007, taught from 2007-2013, and came back to subbing in 2013-2014. (I subbed through January- I started a contract position on February 3rd.) I know what it is to be a sub. I know what it is to depend on a sub.

    In NC, we called our own subs. We did have an automated system, and I did take risks by using it in a few extreme situations. If I knew I was going to be out in advance, I went with a sub I knew. Depending on the make up of my class, different subs were preferred for different years. One sub was a retired teacher who would flat out tell you that she wouldn't teach math. She also frequently gave the answers so the kids could fix them, so you could never grade anything they did that day. However, she was incredibly strict and could keep the unruliest of classes in line. She was my go-to one year after my kids ran off another retired teacher that I actually taught with. As I said, I knew most of my subs. The subs knew me and my kids. That didn't stop me from leaving extremely detailed lesson plans. Last year, one of my student's parents began subbing. She was our former PTA president, I had her older son when I taught 5th, so was a frequent volunteer school wide, and she volunteered at least 2 hours per week in my classroom. I used her for a week long training I had to go to. She knew my kids extremely well since her son was also in my class, and they were all friends. She knew me extremely well. She knew my routines and structure well. It didn't stop me from leaving very detailed plans. She deserved it. Because I knew the majority of the subs, as long as they were in control, I knew the day would be fine.

    Here, in MI, subs are ran by outside companies. They use Aesop and if none of your preferred subs accept your job, it can be very scary. As a sub myself, I was registered as a sub for 20 different districts. As an LTS, I had a few subs due to trainings/meetings. I also experienced subs in classrooms next to me. Good subs were a rarity. One particular sub I had couldn't find my lesson plans, yet found the materials I left. (I leave everything in chronological order with my plans on top.) She didn't do anything I asked and even taught them how to regroup subtraction incorrectly. I know this because she used the document camera and I could see the paper she had used. Since you never know what you are going to get with the Aesop roulette, I will always prepare for the worst. I don't write scripted things, but my plans are extremely specific. I just wrote plans for the next 2 days because I might be out, and they are 5 pages each.

    I don't think it is too much to ask for someone to do as you asked. It is their job!!!

    As a sub, I found it incredibly annoying to be left 'babysitting' plans where I didn't teach anything. However, having been on the other side of the situation, I understand why they do it. I just did a great job and my classroom management usually stood out to observers, and it got around quickly that I was capable. If I was able to return to a classroom, and they knew I was their sub, their plans would be less 'babysitting' and more 'real'. I hated it, but I got it.
     
  34. AdamnJakesMommy

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    First, I didn't mean to start a marathon thread, lol

    Second,

    My problem isn't that she didn't mimic them exactly--but that there wasn't a read aloud is the PRIMARY issue. It is important to READ the chapter, and DISCUSS the concepts, before giving them the worksheet assessing their understanding of the concepts. The kids were handed the worksheet and told to do it. And guess what? They struggled through it. And according to them (which I know is embellished), she gave them the majority of the answers.

    That is the problem I have. Now if they didn't play popcorn and they played some other reading game. Or no reading game at all, as long as it was READ ALOUD I wouldn't have cared. But I teach 4th grade and 10 of my kids are ESL and others are reading on a 1st or 2nd grade level. They benefit tremendously from read alouds and periodically stopping to discuss.

    Choosing to throw a worksheet at them straight away is not an example of sub being creative and imaginative. It is disregarding the learning needs of my kids.

    She also had them do the entire math sheet, I wanted them to do odd. They shouldn't have had time to do it all, but because they didn't do the read aloud, I guess they did have time to do all of the math worksheet. The only reason this bothers me is I have a copy limit. So now I need to run a WHOLE new worksheet for them to practice comparing fractions by creating like denominators instead of doing the even problems in this method.
     
  35. 2ndTimeAround

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    I too was a sub for many years. I enjoyed when I got to actually teach but I never intentionally did my own thing if given a detailed lesson plan.

    I never felt like I was inferior or that the teachers felt superior. The idea is silly to me. Of COURSE the teacher was in charge. OF COURSE she had every right to dictate my day.

    Since when is it the responsibility of the teacher or school to make sure that a sub has fun during the school day? Why should there be enough leeway so a sub can practice her skills on someone else's students?
     
  36. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    I was thinking this too... and I second majored in biology and am certified to teach high school biology...

    I thought brown is dominant, blue is recessive, but green is more recessive than blue. Or is eye color controlled by multiple genes here and there may be more involved (similar to height, for example?)
     
  37. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    Aha, my speculation was right that it was controlled by multiple genes.

    However, my blue eyes for example and my husband's blue eyes equates to never having a brown-eyed child, correct?

    Or did I sleep during this topic in genetics...??
     
  38. 2ndTimeAround

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    two blue-eyed people can have a brown eyed child. It is rare but it can happen.
     
  39. AdamnJakesMommy

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    Dang, so the House episode when House knows the wife cheated on the husband because the child had brown eyes and the parents had hazel and blue is a farce!
     
  40. Honest_Teacher

    Honest_Teacher Comrade

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    I have a hard time believing this given the obvious absurdity of the question in the title of the thread.
     
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