Approval of Public Schools at an All Time High

Discussion in 'General Education' started by Tyler B., Sep 5, 2017.

  1. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    A recent poll about attitudes toward public schools showed that a majority of Americans oppose programs that use pubic money for private and religious schools. A majority also said they do not think that standardized test scores are a valid reflection of school quality.

    This is real progress! Do you agree?
     
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  3. DAH

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    [QUOTE="Tyler B.,
    • a majority of Americans oppose programs that use pubic money for private and religious schools.
    • [/QUOTE]
    In the beginning, the first public schools WERE RELIGIOUS, specifically CHRISTIAN-based institutions. In fact, children were taught to read using the Holy Bible. Once the printing press was up and running, the first printed textbooks used BIBLICAL CHARACTERS to teach the alphabet and moral lessons.

    Now, here we are 250 years later, discussing SHOULD PUBLIC MONEY BE USED TO SUPPORT RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS! What! ...The first public schools in America WERE CHRISTIAN/RELIGIOUS! Begun by the contemporaries of the framers of the Constitution! And they didn't complain.

    If America can take my Christian dollar and use it to teach and support SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, ABORTION, and ATHEIST IDEOLOGY, that I am GROSSLY OPPOSED TO, then YES, my tax dollar should also be used to support the religious Christian schools who, by the way, BIRTHED the entire school system in America! :yeahthat:



     
  4. Backroads

    Backroads Aficionado

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    Partially. I tend to sway back and forth on the idea of vouchers--and yes, even to private and religious schools.

    Standardized testing is ridiculous.
     
  5. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    It's so damn hard to answer these questions without anger getting in the way or responding to some of the lunacy in kind.

    The poll is irrelevant. It does not represent progress. I imagine most Americans have always felt this way.

    Progress could only be measured by the removal of this cancer from our society, and outlawing the greed that allowed it to fester.

    Standardized testing is a measure of skin tone and affluence, only.
     
  6. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    In the beginning, the first public schools WERE RELIGIOUS, specifically CHRISTIAN-based institutions. In fact, children were taught to read using the Holy Bible. Once the printing press was up and running, the first printed textbooks used BIBLICAL CHARACTERS to teach the alphabet and moral lessons.

    Now, here we are 250 years later, discussing SHOULD PUBLIC MONEY BE USED TO SUPPORT RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS! What! ...The first public schools in America WERE CHRISTIAN/RELIGIOUS! Begun by the contemporaries of the framers of the Constitution! And they didn't complain.

    If America can take my Christian dollar and use it to teach and support SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, ABORTION, and ATHEIST IDEOLOGY, that I am GROSSLY OPPOSED TO, then YES, my tax dollar should also be used to support the religious Christian schools who, by the way, BIRTHED the entire school system in America! :yeahthat:



    [/QUOTE]
    Your tone seems angry.

    I teach in a public school and have never addressed those issues you cite. I'm assuming you also support slavery and are against women's suffrage. Both of these were supported by founding fathers and I do teach about these issues.
     
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  7. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Why are you attacking the other poster personally? The person gave their opinion, but not as a direct assault on you. The fact of the matter is, whether or not you personally have taught those listed views, they have been taught in public schools. The point is valid. If the schools teach topics against someone's religion and they must pay for the public schools (whether they use them or not via taxes), the poster believes that the reverse should also be available. That isn't personal against you.
     
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  8. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    You have a great point. I was not in any way thinking this was a personal attack, but a discussion of the issues and using some irony to make my point.

    Please accept my apology. If anyone viewed my comments as a personal attack, that was a misinterpretation of my remarks.
     
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  9. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Tyler, I'm afraid that a2z's reading of your post aligns with mine; you may have intended irony, but that wasn't signaled nearly clearly enough by your words alone. (In the absence of body language and tone of voice and a good deal of background, irony is rather challenging to convey.) Let me ask you to reread your post to see what motivated a2z to come to a stranger's defense (hint: sentence 2) and that you edit it accordingly. Once your post is sorted out, I'll be happy to clean up the thread.

    Food for thought here: http://www.cuppacocoa.com/a-better-way-to-say-sorry/
     
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  10. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Cancer... Anyone who has suffered or watched another suffer would probably appreciate you choosing a different word.

    Minorities and poor people don't produce any viable data?

    I do agree they shouldn't be used for for evaluation but standardized tests do yield data. As maligned as the PARCC is for example, it does show how ill equipped many students are in what should be basic grade level problem solving. The stunningly high rate of students requiring remedial college courses when enrolling also tells us this.

    NJ Star Ledger had an opinion piece about expanding our county votech hs's and there were pitchforks out in the comment section so I'd say that's different from the article.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  11. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Don't clean up threads and sanitize the content. If you don't agree with something, counter it or call them out on it.

    I think we all need to relax and realize evryone is passionate. I don't agree with them, but I also don't think we need to censor each other. There have been no words in any of these posts that assaulted anyone elses character. Relax peeps.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  12. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I wasn't apologizing for the content of my message. I stand by it. If a person uses the morals of the founding fathers to support a position, I was pointing out that it's a weak argument because the morals of the founding fathers vary from what we believe now.

    My apology was to readers who thought my intent was to make a personal attack. That was not my intention. I was challenging the reasoning of the poster, not the poster.
     
  13. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    (Yes, I've edited my post. Sometimes being a moderator lands one between a rock and a hard place, and sometimes one doesn't handle that gracefully.)

    Tyler, it's unfortunate that you don't see what's wrong with either "I assume you support slavery" - I can't imagine any "you" at whom you aimed that comment not taking it as fighting words - or with what amounts to "I got caught, so I'll say I'm sorry you feel bad, but I don't intend to change anything." (Please read the thread I posted above on why that doesn't actually constitute an apology.) Someday I hope you do see, because you have interesting things to say.

    DAH, posts that are laced with CAPITALIZATION! and EXCLAMATION POINTS!! tend to make even sympathetic readers' eyes glaze over. Cool it, please. You've already been warned about excessively political posts. Oh, and please read and pay attention to this thread on how to quote on A to Z: while bad cut-and-paste makes your own posts look silly, it also keeps mucking up other people's replies - as it has in this thread and a number of others - and it's time to stop.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
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  14. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    While i think their post is pointless that's not what was actually said. They did not just write that someone supported slavery. They made an if/then statement. If you are going to say this, then this must be true.

    They made what is called a conditional statement. Computer science uses them all the time. In fact, this forumn would not exist without conditional statements written into the code. A conditional statement can be true or false. If the statement is false, simply reply that it is false.
     
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  15. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    We can only go by what your words actually say, not what your intentions in your mind say. When we post and it is not written properly, it is our fault, not the misinterpretations of the reader.

    "I am assuming you believe in slavery" is no where near " If a person uses the morals of the founding fathers to support a position, I was pointing out that it's a weak argument because the morals of the founding fathers vary from what we believe now." This mismatch is almost as close as saying "I am assuming you believe in slavery" meant that I was hungry for spaghetti.

    I don't quite understand blaming readers for not being able to figure out what someone really meant to write but did not. Why not accept responsibility for a poorly written post and state what you really meant? Why in the world is it the reader's fault for not being able to figure out what was really in your mind?

    That error fully lands in the lap of the writer of the post, not the reader.

    Saying I am sorry you messed up really isn't an apology.
     
  16. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    Yes, TG stated exactly what was said. As Tyler pointed out, it may not have been what he meant, but it is what he said.
     
  17. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    May I also please remind all posters that this forum is considered a professional one that is used as a resource by posters and non-posters alike. One of the tasks the moderators face is making sure the discussion stays on this side of that fine line between robust and unprofessional / personally insulting to members. Thank you in advance for helping us maintain this community.
     
  18. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I would like to turn the conversation back to the original post.

    Despite all the teacher slamming done by politicians and media outlets, the public is viewing their schools favorably. Here's a quote from the article:

    "The new poll finds that the proportion of Americans who give their community’s public schools an A grade is at its highest in more than 40 years of PDK polling."

    I view this as information to celebrate.
     
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  19. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    Yes, but more and more I find our leaders are indifferent to public opinion, even widespread and majority opinion. Americans are saddled with leaders so wealthy and powerful that they can afford not to care about their constituents and get away with it.

    A poll will not move the forces allied against us off our necks. Scores of polls showing the same thing, perhaps, but not likely.

    If we want actual change, a concerted and unrelenting movement against the political and corporate opposition to labor rights is in order. We need persistent, national exposure of instances of graft and corruption. We need "invulnerable" incumbent leaders unseated. We need unexpected tides of voter turnout to overcome gerrymandering. NEA is not going to save public education. Our only hope is that one day enough Americans realize the forces mobilized against teachers are in fact endangering all labor in America. Then, perhaps, the opinions of angry, threatened Americans will transform into something with sharper teeth than a mere poll.
     
  20. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Gerrymandering isn't new and has been used by whichever party is in power. Theres actually places that use it for legit reasons to make sure people don't become disenfranchised.
     
  21. otterpop

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    Ugh - I wish that the majority would speak up and find a way to rid of us the plethora of tests we must take! I'm okay with a few tests, but students are way over tested. I think the only way it will change is if parents start voicing that opinion.
     
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  22. Peregrin5

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    You can't "Yeah That" your own post. That's just self-aggrandizing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
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  23. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    You said you are ok with a few tests, how many standardized tests are your students taking?
     
  24. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    If it reaches a point where you aren't allowed to have basic conversations between consenting adults, I say shut the forum down and stick to the printables AtoZ.
     
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  25. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    By way of votes!
     
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  26. otterpop

    otterpop Aficionado

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    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  27. 3Sons

    3Sons Enthusiast

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    Personally I think computer-adaptive testing could take care of a lot of this. For those who aren't aware, computer-adaptive testing is done on a computer and gives different questions depending on what the tester gets correct.

    For example, after the first two questions one could get both right, both wrong, or one right and one wrong. If one gets them both right, the computer gives a more difficult question. Both wrong, a less difficult one. One right and one wrong, a question of similar difficulty. Each question then proceeds off the history of previous questions.

    The GMAT is done this way, and what was previously a 3-hour test gets done in a half-hour (sometimes less).

    Incidentally -- speaking purely legally -- it should be noted that originally the bill of rights did not apply to the states, and only was deemed to apply after the 14th amendment's equal protection clause. This means that at the founding an individual state could establish an official religion. This obviously isn't our understanding today, and a reevaluation of this would require us to also reevaluate other first amendment freedoms such as free speech and press.
     
  28. DAH

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    I figured that I would be the only one that felt that way, so I had to support myself.
     
  29. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Feel free to communicate your preferences to the site owner: use the "Contact Us" box at the bottom of this page, or send her a PM. She might even comply. On the other hand, she hasn't done so up to now, and (with one highly instructive exception) she has been explicit with the moderators about not wanting political discussions here, so you might have to deal with the forum as she wants it rather than as you want it.
     
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  30. TeacherGroupie

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    There's no explicit rule against it, of course, but I agree that it's odd, though I'd say less self-aggrandizing than needy.
     
  31. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Seeing as it hasn't been shut down it must be OK. Not to mention the absurdity of discussing anything education related without considering the political issues related to it.

    I would expect the political debate to be limited to education though.
     
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  32. DAH

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    :toofunny:
     
  33. greendream

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    Here's some more points from that poll that don't fit the OP's narrative quite as nicely:

    • If cost and location were not issues, just one-third of parents say they’d pick a traditional public school over a private school (31%), public charter school (17%), or a religious school (14%).
    • Just 21% agree that vouchers erode the quality of public schools. Opposition to vouchers seems based on views about the appropriate use of public funds.
    http://pdkpoll.org/results/using-public-money-to-support-private-schools
     
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  34. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    My understanding of how political discussions are moderated is discussion of ISSUES is more than okay, provided it remains civil and doesn't delve into a red / blue / green issue. In other words, let's talk about what moves the world and the classroom, but keep it non-partisan.
     
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  35. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    That's how I roll.
     
  36. AmyMyNamey

    AmyMyNamey Comrade

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    By and large, the American public is is led by the nose like some dumb animal at the hands of legislators, lobbyists, and a media enslaved by advertising dollars from legislators and lobbyists. Frankly, the American public doesn't know what the hell to think, though this never stops them from trying—badly. The American public likes to be manipulated. The American public has been conditioned to favor an existence defined by subservient lechery and self destruction.

    Atop the perpetual social manipulation, tax dollars we think are being used for the services needed to maintain a just and verdant society are stolen by legislators and their corporate backers. Yet no one seems to notice or thinks to raise an alarm. The American public has been manipulated to a point that they can no longer perceive long-term threats, cannot react properly to even short-term threats, and values media titillation beyond self-preservation.

    The loss of quality public education is paving our way to a national state of wage slavery never seen before—even beyond that America experienced prior to the rise of industrialization.

    The forces working to reduce America to a third-world source of cheap labor supporting the growth of foreign economies are emboldened, relentless, and widespread—but largely subversive. They are everywhere.

    Actual teachers and members of the thinking minority have a duty to find and highlight the actions and manipulations of those who favor a powerless, enthralled America.

    I am alarmed by the frequency at which views challenging anti-labor and anti-education rhetoric are being classified as partisan threats that need to be shut down.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  37. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    I know the button doesn't always get a response. If you want me to set up a PM for you and another member, I can set it up. I will try PMing you.
     
  38. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Did you run out of tin foil this morning or did you have enough to cover all the windows?
     
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  39. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    As an actual teacher, I have many duties, but I don't think that's one of them.
     
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  40. Tyler B.

    Tyler B. Groupie

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    I think that teachers have a duty to remain politically active and counter the anti-teacher, anti-public education voices.
     
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  41. bella84

    bella84 Aficionado

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    I respectfully disagree. I have a personal interest in doing so... I enjoy taking up educational policy as a hobby. I like to read about policy and research, and I like to engage in conversations about it. However, I disagree that all teachers have a duty to do this. For one thing, not all teachers share the same opinions about what is considered "anti-teacher" and "anti-public education".

    I believe all teachers have a duty to maintain their credentials and be committed to providing a high-quality education to their students. Anything beyond that is going above and beyond and is a matter of personal interest and individual values.
     

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