Another teacher suspended for blogging about her students

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by catnfiddle, Feb 16, 2011.

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  1. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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  3. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    To be fair...a lot of what she said is stuff that I've said to my husband about my students. Those were private conversations though, not anything I'd post in a blog.
     
  4. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    That is EXACTLY my point, Caesar. I may say things to my husband or parents (who are retired teachers) as a way to vent. I would NEVER post such negative notions on a blog, Facebook or even here, where I have a degree of anonymity.
     
  5. Mark94544

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    I'm having some trouble with this.

    When I first read an article about this today, I absolutely agreed that teachers should not post negative comments about students, co-workers, or parents on a blog. That's common sense, isn't it? A teacher is a "professional" and this kind of blogging doesn't seem very professional, does it?

    Sure, we all want to avoid unnecessary controversy, and surely students and parents will argue that it's the teacher's negative attitude and not the students' performance that resulted in bad grades, etc.

    But on reflection, I wonder if that's the right attitude?

    One key point: there's no indication that this teacher has breached confidentiality by publishing any information that could be used to identify a specific student, parent, teacher, or administrator; but surely some folks are going to assume that specific comments are "about them." (Carly Simon: "You're so vain; you prob'ly think this song is about you....")

    Assuming that there's no breach of confidentiality, what exactly is our objection to the comments in this blog? That they're negative? Are we really saying that teachers must be silent about perceived problems in their schools? What can teachers say, to whom?

    Do we want to encourage discourse? If so, do we want to restrict teacher's comments to Pollyanna "everything is beautiful" comments? If we silence this teacher (and thousands of others), aren't we denying our society valuable information about teachers' perspectives?

    Now, twist it a little bit: suppose the teacher's blog were limited to a specific narrow topic, like problems with standardized testing and curriculum? Should that make a difference? Where should we draw the line? Who should draw the line?
     
  6. Fun Value

    Fun Value New Member

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    Ok, don't say anything about a student on a public site, but my principal published everyone's passwords for our Curriculum Mapper. One of ten passwords that I have used for years for various things was published to all other teachers. So for all I know, before I was aware of this, anyone could have gotten into one of my public sites and said anything about anybody. So far I have not heard anything, but I may never really know.
     
  7. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    The problem is that, courtesy of the Internet, our lives are not as compartmentalized as they once were. It used to be that I wrote stuff in my teacher journal to blow off steam immediately and reflect on it later. I regularly go back to my entries about my student teaching and subbing days to see if I can glean any wisdom from it. These are not published anywhere that anyone other than someone with immediate access to my house can read them.

    These days, if I mention on Facebook that I went out for cocktails, my father admonishes me for mentioning alcohol and spending money (I'm 39 and he still does this). If I then mention that I was driven to drink because this and that happened at school, several teachers, a few alumni students and one vice principal will have access to this because we've friended each other. My Facebook page is technically private, but I have enough friends that things could leak out.

    Am I saying that teachers shouldn't write about their classes? If that were the case, this forum would die a swift, sad death. What I am saying is that the teacher in question used incredibly poor judgment in how she wrote about her classes and where she made her words public. When people write here about negative moments in their classroom, it's rare that it can be tied back to a teacher's name and school so there is some safety. This teacher did not take that step.
     
  8. smalltowngal

    smalltowngal Multitudinous

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    I try not to post anything negative about my students, my job, or anything on Facebook or here...at least not w/o keeping as general as I can. I don't post ANYTHING about my job on Facebook since I have a lot of teacher friends on my facebook and a former principal as well. If I'm going out, I don't post it. If I have a glass of wine, it stays off of Facebook. Sad that we have to live this way, but I want my job. I also vent to my dh about tough days.
     
  9. CandorWit

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    I'd have to say that I think the teacher was out of line. Whether her comments are true or not, she is a teacher, and it is her job to motivate students. If her students are unmotivated, it could be just as much a failure on her part, not being an effective motivator and educator, just as much as it could be a reflection of the students and their parents.
    I use to work in private finance and we had a very strict code of conduct that applied not only to how we interacted with co-workers and clients during business hours, but how we conducted ourselves outside of the office. Just like public officials, you are considered a role model, to students, to the community. Your actions are not only a reflection on you, but to any organization you represent.
    The notion that there is a separate public and private life seems nonsensical to me. When people try to live dual lives it causes trouble. Think of how upset we are when we find out a politician lives a separate life contrary to what they portray. If you can't live up to the standards your occupation holds or practice what you preach, then you shouldn't be in the profession. It's called living with integrity. If she thinks students are just narcissistic, bratty whiners that cannot be changed, she is in the wrong profession. Adios!
     
  10. a2z

    a2z Virtuoso

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    When you post your picture and your name with your blog and generalize the attitude of student in your class you are identifying the students. You may not be singling one out but you are accusing all of being that way.

    I'd be really angry if my child was a hard working student in that class and accused of being lazy, rude, etc when we know that not all students are that way.

    We teach kids from early grade up about the internet and what is proper and improper behavior. Apparently, this teacher didn't get the message.
     
  11. midwestteacher

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    As teachers, we are held to a higher standard than other professions. I would never post items like that on a blog or in any other public forum. I will stick to venting to my husband.
     
  12. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Once things are written down, they can become incriminating. That was just not a good idea putting those things down on a blog...Goodness...
     
  13. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    It's more about the affect that those comments can have on students, or their parents, if it is leaked out (which it was, in this case). It can, and likely will, damage the effectiveness of the teacher, and hurt the student, making it difficult to impossible for the student to learn (if I know my teacher has these thoughts about me, you better believe I won't be working hard for him or her). So, discourse is one thing, but not when it's done so in a way that can eventually hurt the child or his or her family like this.
     
  14. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    I am now listening to that report, and I am sorry, her words are so hurtful and sad. And saying she "hates" one of the students? There is nothing ok with this.
     
  15. mmswm

    mmswm Moderator

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    It's just silly to say these types of things on such a public, and permanent, form, regardless of the job one holds. Right now, I work for a bank. I have some vents that are at least equal to the issues I had while I was teaching. I would never air those vents on a public form, and I'm not even working in a job that's held to a higher standard than most. It's just common sense.
     
  16. Southernese

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    Anybody have the link to her actual blog?
     
  17. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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  18. John Lee

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    After reading both entries, I'm also amazed that she felt it was OK to talk in the manner that she was... BUT--saying that, I also agree with Mark94544 about the negative that comes with the discouraging of honest dialogue. And I'll vouch for the fact that these are terms you hear everyday in the staff room, from qualified, tenured teachers. So Mark's right, on some level: it's somethng a bit not-right about suspending someone who is basically saying something that EVERYONE else is thinking.
     
  19. YoungTeacherGuy

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    Yikes!

    On my facebook page, I often post the funny things my kids say! Or, I mention how proud of them I am. At times, I even post samples of their art work or writing (without a name being shown).

    I have never (not even once) posted anything negative about my kiddos. Honestly, I really don't have anything negative to say about them. I mean, c'mon, they're seven years old!
     
  20. Reality Check

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    Just so you know, the majority of the reader comments following the articles about this teacher are overwhelmingly in her favor. The general public is applauding her efforts.
     
  21. TeacherApr

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    Her mistake was not being 100% private and by this I mean no picture, no first OR last name, no city or state, no link to her job whatsoever. If you want to vent I think that's FINE as long as you don't use names BUT REMAIN ANONYMOUS.

    I don't think it's an issue that she said negative things because I'm sure we have ALL either thought negative things or vented to someone similarily. It's the fact that she didn't do it anonymously. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
     
  22. Reality Check

    Reality Check Habitué

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    While each school setting has their own unique problems, this woman was teaching HONORS English at an affluent high school. She deteriorated in three years in this position. She wrote about kids tapping on desks, complaining about grades, and making obscene forms out of paper clips. She got responses from people pitying her for having such "bad classes." (Were those people SERIOUS with their sympathy???)

    I couldn't help but laugh and wonder how she would've handled being assaulted, dealing with fights in class, gang activity and weapons in the school, etc. in a more urban environment like I've had to deal with the majority my career for more than 20 years.
     
  23. JustMe

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    Okay, I actually wanted to be able to support this woman. There needs to be a serious discussion about the state of education specifically regarding student behavior, and I thought perhaps her blog would be the catalyst for this discussion. But in reading her "Lazy Whiners" post, she seems pretty whiny herself. And she's pretty open about "snapping" at her students, so...no points there. And then I read the "Comments" post and while I admit a few did make my chuckle, others were outright horrible. So, yeah, she will probably want to put in some applications outside of the education profession. :eek:

    Did you all read her students' comments? Wow, it's just...a nightmare. Seems she's had this coming for some time...
     
  24. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    There is a way to talk about your teaching day, even extremely critically, but with anonymity and humor. One of my absolute bloggers over the years has been The Angry Professor. I have no idea who she is (although I know she's female) or where she teaches (although she's dropped a few clues over the years).
     
  25. JustMe

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    Well, I don't think it's laughable...you most certainly shouldn't be dealing with the issues listed, but that doesn't mean that she should be accepting of rude, inappropriate students. I don't think the existence of "something worse" should make the lesser issues more acceptable.
     
  26. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    I am dying right now reading about the pooping room! :lol:

    Okay, back on topic. Sorry.
     
  27. shouldbeasleep

    shouldbeasleep Enthusiast

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    Wow! This woman has zero class....and really should not be teaching. Her own words indicate she has no concept of how to reach teenagers. I don't think she offers anything to a reasonable discussion on what is wrong in education.

    An interesting issue, though, is whether she has any First Amendment rights in regards to being fired. I think they can fire her for being an ineffective teacher, but I'm still on the fence about whether posting comments (without posting actual names) is going to qualify for stripping her of her right to speak. They'll have to look at her contract and see if she specifically violated a rule.

    (Again, not questioning her idiocy...just the legal standing.)
     
  28. Cerek

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    The opening rant to the "lazy whiner" post certainly sets a poor example and negative tone about her own attitude.

    As I read the entry, it struck me her biggest problem seems to be allowing herself to be "sucked in" to power struggles and arguments with her kids rather than ignoring some of the comments or simply stating "That's not open for discussion."

    I think writing a kid up for tapping on the desk is way over the top. Yes, the kid disrespected her by admitting he was ignoring her, but she already knew he ignored her since he continued tapping. She could have asked him again (perhaps a bit more sternly) to stop tapping or she could have simply walked over and taken the pencil (or whatever he was using) away from him to stop the tapping. If she took away his pencil, she could return it when it was time for him to write notes or work on the assignment. Until then, he didn't need it.

    I agree completely with her remarks and comments regarding the student complaining about his test grade. He was told when the test would be given and what would be on it. He obviously chose NOT to study as well as he should have for the test and he DOES need to accept his grade, move on and try to do better next time.

    The one thing I absolutely could NOT condone (aside from the opening rant) was her calling a student a "jackass" for not understanding the connection between Beowulf and The Canterbury Tales. It sounded as if she had not explained the reason behind the seemingly contradicting assignments and I can't blame him for wondering aloud about the purpose of doing it that way.

    It may well be true that many of her students ARE "lazy whiners", but I agree she sounds like a whiner herself and her own attitude needs some adjusting.
     
  29. Hermes

    Hermes Rookie

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    She certainly makes it hard to defend. Her blog post reads as if she ignored the wise rule to wait until you're calmer to make a reply.

    While an insane rant will get you fired no matter what, should she have to be anonymous to talk about teaching, the classroom, and students using first-hand experiences? If this blog post had been a talk at a conference, would it have been treated differently?

    I didn't really find the "lazy whiners" part remarkable. But she did lose me at "Jackass." After that her examples seemed to ooze an actual hatred for the kids, regardless of their status as students. To me, that's the real issue here. Not the comments themselves but what's behind them. Who wants a teacher who has a disdain for you? Students know already that their teachers think of them as lazy and whatnot, because that's the goal for many students disinterested in education (at least, that's the way I remember it). If a teacher tells a student that to their face, the response is a roll of the eye and a "Well, duh!" But to hear it while seeing a look of murder in the eye? That's a little disturbing. I wouldn't care for such a teacher. I wouldn't show any respect to such a teacher.

    I wonder which came first for this teacher: the horrible students or her horrible response to them?
     
  30. tortega

    tortega Rookie

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    I student taught with a wonderful, no nonsense, older teacher. We got along just fine. However one day I had to pick my jaw off the floor when I heard her and the other grade level teacher talk about how certain children were "such little s___s!" And how others were lazy and stupid. Perhaps this way of talking is common in staff rooms and after hours, but I hope not. It's really really mean. Even if my words were not documented for all to see on the internet, I would want to avoid such ugliness. I try not to say anything that I wouldn't want the parent or child to hear.
     
  31. math1abee

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    I guess I'm just in awe that someone would continue in a position that they seem to hate that much. Also, I can not believe the "student comments" she created. Those comments are some of the meanest things I have heard in a long time. I'm also surprised that the administration or other teachers have not heard complaints about her from the students.

    As far as trying to correct or bring light to student behavior in education I don't think she is the champion that teachers need or deserve.
     
  32. chebrutta

    chebrutta Enthusiast

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    I mean, we've all had a bad day at work, right? Full-moon days, crazy weather days, assembly days when the kids just seem to go insane? Or maybe a day when hormones seem to be in overdrive? And I'm sure a lot of us go home and gripe about it to someone, or maybe gripe in the lounge... we just need that release, to get it all out....

    I know, in the heat of the moment, I've let out a few really good cuss words about my day at work to my BF... but I'd never, EVER post them online or even hand write them in a journal. A bad day is a bad day, but I wake up the next morning and remember they're KIDS. They go crazy; they can be thoughtless; they can be rude; they can be self-absorbed. It's what happens to them; it's called PUBERTY. And they'll grow up and out of it. I always felt that in addition to teaching grammar and literature, it was part of my job to guide them through these tough years with understanding.

    I do agree that dialogue needs to be opened about what many teachers go through every day in terms of negative interactions with kids, but that blog? Not the right way. Two wrongs don't make a right.
     
  33. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    Ok it is questionable on a number of points but I'd like to read about the feelings here on A to Z.
    Does she have the right to post anonymously about her school?
    Was she really unprofessional?
    Did she protect her identity?
    Is she allowed to vent to her friends and family on a blog she thought only her friends and family would read?
    Was she "smart" to do this?
    Do you think that here on A to Z that some of our "Venting" could be "dangerous" to our Jobs?
    My opinion is she can vent on a blog.
    BUT why didn't she keep it more anonymous (no pictures and no name She had her picture and used her first name and last initial)?
    I do agree with much of what she wrote, does that make me unprofessional?
    Could just venting to another teacher in the teachers room be wrong?
    Here is her answer to all the hubbub
    http://natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/
     
  34. indigo-angel

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    It always interests me how people react to the truth. By "truth," I mean the true feelings of other's. I get that it was rather careless of her to write such intimate thoughts about her job and students without making herself totally anonymous. However, that brings me to the question of why she has to hide to express her true feelings to her friends and family on her own blog. A lot of what she said is crazy and over the top, but I think most teachers, at some point, have thought those same thoughts and wanted to say those exact same things. Obviously, most people wouldn't act on those thoughts or even utter them to another being. We simply push them out of our heads and admonish ourselves for thinking those awful things.

    I think that the veils of "professionalism" and "politically correctness" breed these atrocious feelings. Because so many of us are afraid to be judged and punished by our opinions and feelings, we allow our anger and frustration to fester and become worse, all the while responding to disrespect, attitude, and confrontation with professionalism and political correctness.
     
  35. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    It's perfectly possible for a teacher to phrase negatives, even rather strong ones, without resorting to the sort of language that would earn a write-up, a trip to the office, or loss of recess (depending on the age of the student committing it).
     
  36. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Privacy settings. She needed them.
     
  37. monsieurteacher

    monsieurteacher Aficionado

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    Yes, she has the right to post anonymously about her school. However, if her employer discovers she is posting about the school (or students), they also have the right to cease employment, as far as I'm concerned.

    Without a question.

    Apparently not... she was found out.

    Allowed? Yes. But, she should know that her blog is public, and therefore can be seen by anyone with a Google search. And with a public blog comes certain responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to act appropriately. She did not.

    Absolutely not.

    Definitely! That's why one has to be VERY careful about what one vents about! It is a public forum, and should be treated as such.
     
  38. TamiJ

    TamiJ Virtuoso

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    Feb 17, 2011



    ...​
     
  39. JustMe

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    For the record, had she not used her name and photo I would not be terribly concerned by this. Even though some of her comments were outright mean, most of us say similar things to our friends when upset and that's precisely what she was doing (although she should have been anonymous, of course).

    I enjoyed reading her blog today elaborating on this issue. Some facts that may not change anyone's opinion but I find important: she had seven followers, sixty of her eighty-four posts were not at all related to teaching, and only a few of the twenty-four that did were actually focused on her work.

    Even more than that, I enjoyed reading the many comments to the post. Many, many people are supporting this teacher.
     
  40. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Does she have the right to post anonymously about her school?
    Yes.

    Was she really unprofessional?
    I vote yes for the small number of mean comments, not so much for her overall attitude.

    Did she protect her identity?
    No. She used her first name and last initial and a picture.

    Is she allowed to vent to her friends and family on a blog she thought only her friends and family would read?
    Make it private...the answer would then be yes. Let's pretend one of her friends becomes upset and decides to print and distribute the blog...I still think she's "safe" in that case as I compare that to someone stealing and sharing her journal. Yes, people need to be aware of Internet safety and privacy concerns, but technology doesn't give people a free pass for acting inappropriately.

    Was she "smart" to do this?
    No. With a few privacy settings this woudn't be an issue.

    Do you think that here on A to Z that some of our "Venting" could be "dangerous" to our Jobs?
    Yes, some people have shared specifics that could be damaging professionally speaking, especially when they don't make an effort to hide their identities. We also have to remember some of us are Facebook friends, so when a few people here see "JustMe" they may think "MyRealName", where I live and teach and so forth.

    Kind of a sidenote, but several of us have offered lots of little bits of information over the course of several months or even years. Those add up, people. You'd be surprised how easy it is to discover a person's identity from these seemingly harmless "clues".
     
  41. Soccer Dad

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    Feb 17, 2011

    I haven't read everyone's comments, but what if the comments were positive? Had she said, "I love my students, they work so hard," would we be having this discussion? The main argument is that this teacher is not being private about her students. However, I seriously doubt any parent would complain about positive remarks. Therefore, that leads me to believe that this isn't a question about the actual remark but more of the fact that in the last two decades, teachers are always the ones at fault. I'm sure the parents that object the most are those that have kids that this teacher has called home about.

    I'm all about professionalism but this teacher did nothing wrong in my opinion.

    Can students not log onto ratemyteacher.com and say those same exact statements about us? She used no names. She did not give any clues that could be used for identification.

    And in many ways, she did the same thing we all do but on a much more private scale. I'll be the first to admit that if a student found this site and read all my entries, they could definitely pinpoint who I am. And I've definitely discussed some negative things on this board.

    Free speech within reason is my motto.




    EDIT: I take what I said above back... I just read her blog entries and saw that she said something about writing 4 students up and said why she did... that's giving away specific information and that's not OK.
     
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