Affirmative Action

Discussion in 'Debate & Marathon Threads Archive' started by JustMe, Apr 24, 2014.

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  1. Go Blue!

    Go Blue! Connoisseur

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    May 2, 2014

    As a Black women, this is exactly why I don't like talking about AA. People start saying things that make you want to tell them off. So, I will just agree with everything you said.

    Thank you for saying it.
     
  2. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    May 2, 2014

    That's great for you if you've benefited from your name, but research says the exact opposite is generally true.
     
  3. kellzy

    kellzy Comrade

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    May 2, 2014

    I see why it was passed. When it was passed. It was a good move at the time.
    Now it's an entitlement program and needs to go.
    I look at my family. We're caucasian. We were also dirt poor. We were homeless for a while and if hadn't been for my grandmother and our church we would have been on the streets and going to bed hungry most nights.
    Affirmative Action gives an advantage to people who were born a particular race, regardless of income. This means that my black friend whose father was a lawyer and mother was a doctor gets better chances than my family who had nothing growing up.
    It's outdated and needs to go.
     
  4. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 3, 2014

    I'm just going to be completely honest because I feel I've been around here long enough and contributed enough to do so without most other members drawing incorrect conclusions about my character. I don't understand why a minority would be seething because of this discussion. And I anticipate the response being something along the lines of, "Exactly. You can't understand because you're white." But I am tired of every unfair situation a white person experiences being dismissed because minorities experience such more often. That doesn't make sense in the pursuit of fairness for all.

    And people understand the intentions behind AA but also recognize the realities of its implementation.
     
  5. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    May 3, 2014

    Look at it this way... even WITH AA being in place, what do you think occurs more often? A less qualified minority getting a job, or a less qualified white person getting a job?
     
  6. comaba

    comaba Cohort

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    May 3, 2014

    There was at least one thread in the past that focused on race. I don't remember what the original topic was, but it soon became a discussion of race, prejudice, and discrimination. It became quite heated.

    To me, there are a few comments in this thread that are insensitive. In light of those comments, I totally understand the seething.
     
  7. physteach

    physteach Companion

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    May 3, 2014

    I'm white and can see the absolute necessity for AA. I'm kinda shocked that a bunch of teachers don't acknowledge that race still plays a role in how people are treated. When we still have inequalities in school systems and we still have wage gaps, why wouldn't we want to try to help support actual equality?
     
  8. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 3, 2014

    Interesting that you put words in my mouth and thoughts in my mind.

    I am well aware that racism still exists. No doubt. I have not implied otherwise. I started the topic in order to form an opinion on AA because I really had no passionate view in either direction.
     
  9. Peregrin5

    Peregrin5 Maven

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    May 3, 2014

    I've stayed out of this thread, but I was discussing this topic with my bf and we too got into heated discussion.

    My question is why do we have these inequalities in our school systems? I think the answer is a lot more complicated than teachers/bosses/etc. are racist, though I am certain that there are some such individuals.

    I want actual equality desperately, but I'm wondering what is the actual cause of 90% of our drop-outs, behavior problems, and failing students being males of color even though we live in a community in which diversity is commonplace and celebrated.

    My best guess is home-life, which again could be caused by racial prejudice in other arenas, but I've never had it explained.
     
  10. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 4, 2014

    No, I did not take your three words ("I am seething") as a judgment of my character at all. I was prefacing my comments with the statement that I felt I could share my opinion without having my character judged incorrectly.

    I didn't say it was a "black thing". I anticipated such a response based on past discussions here.
     
  11. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    May 5, 2014

    Just Me I hope you read the articles HeartDrama posted.

    Furthermore, there are millions of black people on the opposite end of that one black woman at your husband's company that you keep referencing.
    Millions upon millions for generations at a time. Yet you continue to bring up a case of one black woman who may have gotten a job she didn't deserve.

    As I mentioned months before, unless you work in the HR dept. of that company, I am certain that there is much more to the story. Statistics upon statistics and research upon resarch and studies galore, hard core evidence prove as a fact over and over, that black people are discriminated against at a great porpotion in all areas of life from birth until death.
    That is why AA was needed, it's as simple as that.

    In fact, a white man with a prison record is more likely to be hired than a black man with no prison record.

    There are millions of cases, research, individuals and facts that prove the black woman at your husband's job is an anectodal anomaly and I think it would be helpful if you would consider what's happening to millions of black people when this disucssion pops up.
     
  12. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 5, 2014

    People seem to think I am disregarding the reasons that brought about AA. I am not. It's awful how minorities are still discriminated against and I recognize that more often they are not given the job unfairly as in the case I shared. And again, I recognize AA wasn't intended to allow unqualified minorities to gain employment over qualified applicants. I am simply offering an experience that in part makes people question the appropriateness of the system. I started this thread to help me form an opinion. I have very little personal experiences to help guide the formation of the opinion, but I shared what happened at my husband's company to show what little is in my mind about the issue. I don't, however, agree with dismissing the cases where a truly unqualified minority is given a position not necessarily because of AA but because companies must consider people's and groups' perceptions.

    And there really isn't much more to the story of the black woman's hiring. I do know that.
     
  13. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    May 5, 2014

    Ok what was the job title and what were her qualifications vs the qualifications the job required?

    Keep in mind, white women have benefitted the most from AA. I am certain some man somewhere can give the exact same scenario you did about the black woman.

    So how do you feel about AA knowing white women have benefitted the most and without a doubt there are some anectodal stories where a man could state some unqualified white woman was given a job she didnt deserve.

    WHy does AA have to always be about black people...certainly because racism is prevalent and we are never considered to actually be qualified for anything.

    Also, if the people in power at your husband's company did not follow the rules of how Affirmative Action should be implemented, then that is their fault for being lazy, but it does not mean that the entire system is wrong because the HR dept decided not to read the justification and history of AA and follow it properly.

    It's just like how many principals don't do the proper paper work to remove a bad teacher. But that doesn't mean tenure in and of itsself was originally a bad idea.

    Take other programs put in place to help under priviledged people.....Medicaid, Medicare, Food Stamps, SSI, disability...pretty much every huge government program is being misused and abused by citizens, and even doctors, lawyers and judges participate in the fraud.

    Fraud and dishonesty go deep. If the powerful higher ups (usually white people) did not allow it then it would not happen.

    Does that mean we should completely strip the country of those programs? I think it means everyone needs to do their jobs properly. Do not discrimnate, do not commit fraud, treat people with dignity.

    The bottom line is often greed. And money is often more important than black or white...the most important color is green. So that may be the case with your husband's job....a grant or something related to money.

    And it's their own fault if they failed to make sure their work place was diverse and they had to hurry up and hire someone. That's their own fault for not following the law.

    But there are tons and tons of schools and work places with no black people.

    My last work place practically had no black people. And I was technically overqualified for the job. The HR managaer told me herself that I know more about the topic than what she does.

    I worked for an eye doctor and definitely, it was my brain rather than the color of my skin that got me hired. And that is truly the case for 99% (my guess) of black people today. Our skin color does not help us at all. Honestly, it's insane to us that people think we have an advanatge over anything in life.
    Quite the contrary.


    Is that black woman still employed? How did she perform on the job?

    And if we were still benefitting from affirmative action, my goodness, considering the inhumane horror our race has been put through at the hands of many white people, why in the world should it bother anyone so much.

    How is it hurting your race? We as black people are dealing with the cops killing innocent black people, watching people continue to be found NOT GUILTY of killing our kids, our young people are out of control (poverty is one reason why), watching our family/friends die and higher rates from diseases (due to racism in medicine), watching medical examiners cover up the murders of blacks (Kendrick Johnson, Trayvon, another hate crime in Texas and so on).

    Google school to prison pipeline to see how people in power are purposely trying to fill the prisons with black kids.

    My goodness, you guys really don't realize how easy you have it and it disgusts many of us as black people.

    Perhaps that job really helped the woman out. Maybe it prevented her from being homeless. Maybe her kids can finally eat and be healthy. Look beyond her race for a minute and see her as a human being who needed a job and wanted to work and not live off your 'taxes.'


    If my race had enslaved another race and murdered their babies, women and men for CENTURIES, I'd honestly be okay and have no complaints if a law was in place to help that race out some.

    Crime would actually go down, and the world would be a better place if people were more compassionate towards the struggles of black people.

    I am sympathetic to the struggles of Native Americans, and in fact they got a settlement from the government. The most that the government has said to black people for killing millions of Africans is..."Sorry"
     
  14. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 5, 2014

    Again, it seems not everything I write is being read. For example, I have never indicated that AA is solely about or for black people. And how many times must I write that I realize the case I provided and others like it doesn't necessarily result directly from AA? Leaving conversation.
     
  15. greendream

    greendream Cohort

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    May 6, 2014

    I agree with Chief Justice of the Supreme Court John Roberts on affirmative action: "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."
     
  16. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    May 6, 2014

    :yeahthat:
     
  17. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    May 6, 2014

    JustMe, why don't you just stop arguing?
     
  18. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    May 6, 2014

    And now I'm beyond frustrated.
     
  19. MikeTeachesMath

    MikeTeachesMath Devotee

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    May 6, 2014

    Unless I read a totally different thread, I'm not sure why JustMe is being ganged up on.
     
  20. orangetea

    orangetea Connoisseur

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    May 6, 2014

    I do think affirmative action is necessary in college admissions.

    I have worked in a very wealthy district and am currently working in a low-income school. Most of the students in the wealthy district were white or Asian, while most of the students in my current school are black. The differences in opportunities afforded to these students are unfortunately huge. In my other district, the curriculum was more challenging, teachers stayed in the school longer, classes were smaller, and students had more resources available to them (college counselors, etc.). This is because schools are funded by property taxes, which gives students from less wealthy families less of a chance at a good education. I believe income is the best predictor of SAT scores.

    Race is definitely tied to income, but it is not the same thing of course. However, as educators, we shouldn't disregard the role race plays in the education our students receive (as well as their privilege over the course of their lives). For college admissions, I would like income to play a factor in affirmative action.

    For jobs, I do think affirmative action is important. There has been many research done that shows that people of color have a more difficult time getting jobs in comparison to white people. (I recently read an article where the name of a white man got more responses to his email than emails of people with many different ethnic backgrounds. It was the same email that was sent. Affirmative action helps level out the playing field since racism still exists today.
     
  21. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

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    May 6, 2014

    Why is clarifying her statements 'arguing'?
     
  22. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    May 6, 2014

    Amen. Qualifications only. And that's all I'm gonna say :)
     
  23. AdamnJakesMommy

    AdamnJakesMommy Habitué

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    May 6, 2014

    Nevermind...one more thing.

    There will always be white people who are racist against blacks. There will always be black people who are racist against whites.
    There will always be non-Semites who are bigots against Jews.
    There will always be non-Arabs who are racist against Arabs.
    There will always be non-Asians racist against Asians.
    There will always be Americans who think lowly of non-Americans.
    There will always be Russians who think lowly of non-Russians.

    Clearly, there is discrimination in the teaching profession. I have heard many complaints how age plays a considerable role in the hiring decision. I'm sure "looks" do to, does the teacher look like a teacher? They have shown documentary upon documentary that show how in many professions thin people are preferred over heavy people, pretty people are preferred over ugly people, etc.

    Jerks exist, plain and simple.

    One man's racist comments does not prove anything other than there are jerks out there, and his opinion does not represent American society or white people or older people or gray-haired people or rich people. He represents himself and himself only. I disagree that racism is a "problem" in this country. Does it exist? Yes. Is it some major epidemic? No.

    There is a local dry cleaner who refuses to hire women because men are always better worker than women (according to him). So I never use his services, what a prune.

    There is a bank manager (who is black) who is notorious for never hiring white people---and one time she had a transfer come in and pretty much railroaded that white lady out! I bank at that bank (actually used to work there, just a different branch), but I still go in to her branch because, hey, I gotta get my $$$.

    I've heard of a white property owner who told her rental management not to rent to blacks because they are "sloppy," to which she was promptly told to take a hike because discriminating on the basis of race is unlawful.

    Some people suck. Most people are good, honest, hard-working, and genuinely value someone's character over skin color.

    And with that, that's all I'm gonna say. Never to check on this forum again...

    Have a nice day :)
     
  24. gr3teacher

    gr3teacher Phenom

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    May 6, 2014

    Saying "Qualifications only!" is great, and if hiring and application processes went by qualifications only, then affirmative action would not be necessary.
     
  25. webmistress

    webmistress Devotee

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    Yes! I truly wished we lived in that type of world.

    It would be nice if John Roberts could have made this statement to the founding fathers of this country and even further back to the european colonists. Had they believed in "stopping racial discrimination" or as AdamnJakesMom said "Qualifications only" then there would have been no need for Affirmative Action.

    Unfortunately, hundreds of years of racial discrimination cannot be solved by one little sentence.
     
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