Accused of assault

Discussion in 'Secondary Education' started by newbie12, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. MathGuy82

    MathGuy82 Companion

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    Jul 24, 2017

    This is unfortunately true now with cell phones our students use! It seemed very hard to get them to stop.
     
  2. DAH

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    There is a video on YouTube--TAKEN BY A STUDENT--where the male teacher (it may have been a substitute) warned the students about the consequences of cell phone use in class, then, walked over to a student and took his cell phone. The 6-foot, 16-year-old, Mike-Tyson-sized student, jumped up in a RAGE, punched the teacher in the head and the teacher hit the floor with a BANG, UNCONSCIOUS! 911 was called, the whole deal, it was on the news.

    That video taught me a lesson on HOW CAREFUL WE NEED TO BE when dealing with kids these days. I have confiscated MANY CELL PHONES in my career, but after seeing that video, I stopped, and began to delegate that job to security.
     
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  3. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    I just found out a few months ago from a coworker that the cameras in our classrooms cannot be used against us, and it is stated in our contracts. We have cameras in every classroom; teachers have the option to not use them. I always wanted them because then no one can ever accuse me of anything and it clears up questions about fight, things stolen, etc. The cameras are very good quality and in color. I didn't care that I was recorded, but now knowing that they can't use them to track me, it's even better.
     
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  4. MathGuy82

    MathGuy82 Companion

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    Great posts!! I get worried about this and it's already giving me the jitters this year about the upcoming year. Students on their phones and then they react badly when we try to take them away. All the chaos it cause just to have a cell phone rule, and from the video above it can end really badly in some cases.
     
  5. TechnoMage

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    Interesting thread. It matters if your state is a single or two party state. Federal government says single, you can record any conversation you are present for. This goes for telephone conversations, airports, plane flights, etc. If you live in a two party state (say California) all persons in a conversation must be told it is being recorded IF it is going to be used in a lawful endeavor (ie court or as a legal witness). If it goes to court, the usual evidentiary principles are applied (chain of custody and such). That middle school teacher who was murdered by a previously taught student was such a case. She recorded her murder and the police found the recorder she had triggered. There was a big todo about excluding it as evidence since she had not asked her murderers if she could record them. Finally it was concluded that she was abducted in a single party state and did not need their permission. They were found guilty. So check with your state laws. Districts be d@mned, they do not want proof of their intent, incompetence, and malfeasance. They will bring in a "witness" who will eventually lie about the whole thing (yes I have had that happen in my career), and where is your witness? Hopefully in your pocket (like mine was). I did not get rehired by that district and we may still wind up in court. But I did not get "sacked", lose my pension (could happen depending on the lie), or the loss of that semester's pay. Interesting that the Dr ? HR tried to say it was against the law for me to do this and say "I forbid you to record me," she had HER witnesses there. I replied that state law gave me the right to self defense and equal protection, did not need her permission. She never mentioned it again in other meetings, I suppose she researched it. I still maintain that ALL of us need to be aware of your rights and the laws within your state. AND yes you should consider that at any time or place you are being recorded, because you are. The kids with cell phones are and they do not respect Laws or RULES. They will bait you and then happily record you and post it to the WEB for notoriety. Just look at what those 5 teens did to the man who was drowning. Lord of the Flies is not fiction anymore or perhaps it never was. Not mad, glad, rude or sad, just experienced.
     
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  6. TechnoMage

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    Jul 26, 2017

    We now have state mandated cameras in any state certified Children's Daycare. Anyone who thinks this is a bad thing need only Google the "Little Rascals" fiasco that gave 99 year sentences to poor daycare workers and owners. It was a modern day witch hunt. Horrible things can happen to ordinary citizens when crazy people in a mob are involved. No sane person can look at the facts surrounding that case and say these people deserved any of what happened. Cameras would have saved a lot of heartache. Mobs do very stupid things. The same thing can happen to competent teachers in a very short time. Quietly, without public scrutiny, behind the scenes. These can also be made very public in such a way as the innocent never have any chance (ie. Little Rascals). But cameras (and audio recordings) are not a good thing, right? NOT IMHO.
     
  7. DAH

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    [QUOTE="Linguist92021, . I always wanted them because then no one can ever accuse me of anything [/QUOTE]

    I agree with you, Linguist. It reminds me when drug testing was first introduced on jobs, I worked at city hall, where they came around to each employee and personally asked us if we would mind taking a drug test. And I said, "of course not!" Later I was BLASTED by many people in the office who didn't want it! Their excuse was, "It's violates our rights." But my view back then, and still is today, that this is "PROTECTION" for the innocent.

    Because the reality is, people can be very evil. They will do all manner of evil against you for whatever reason they have, and if you don't watch your back, you're MUSH!
    As far as I'm concerned, BRING IN THE CAMS and TURN 'EM ON!

    It appears to me that the only people worried are those who may have something to hide.
     
  8. a2z

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    I agree with you, Linguist. It reminds me when drug testing was first introduced on jobs, I worked at city hall, where they came around to each employee and personally asked us if we would mind taking a drug test. And I said, "of course not!" Later I was BLASTED by many people in the office who didn't want it! Their excuse was, "It's violates our rights." But my view back then, and still is today, that this is "PROTECTION" for the innocent.

    Because the reality is, people can be very evil. They will do all manner of evil against you for whatever reason they have, and if you don't watch your back, you're MUSH!
    As far as I'm concerned, BRING IN THE CAMS and TURN 'EM ON!

    It appears to me that the only people worried are those who may have something to hide.
    [/QUOTE]
    There are times they can be an issue. If you have pain pills for a chronic issue such as a back problem and you take them passed the prescription expiration date it is seen as a drug test failure even if it was prescribed as needed. That as needed means within a year of the prescription being filled.

    I'm for cameras, but there may always be that small exception where it can be an issue just as in the drug testing.
     
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  9. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    There could come a point where we end up giving up so many personal rights that eventually we may find ourselves living in a police state. I don't do illegal drugs, but I'm not volunteering for any drug tests.
     
  10. GemStone

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    Jul 27, 2017

    Your contract might say you're protected from consequences of anything on video, but it could be a different story in a court of law.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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  11. Joyful!

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    Jul 27, 2017

    Newbie12,
    What happened since you first posted? Have you been able to seek counsel for your defense?
    Were you exonerated? I hope things are going well for you.
     
  12. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    I could be wrong but I just assume this was a posting meant to bait people. There is no union in the world that wouldn't be involved in this matter the second it came up. School leadership would have had them in the room when they advised the teacher about the issue.

    Also, student teachers in NJ this year have to video tape themselves teaching and send it to ETS for grading. Cameras are not far off for everyone.
     
  13. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    Remember, not every school has a union...
     
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  14. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    The implication from others made the assumption so I went with it. I don't believe this post is true because if they were as nervous as implied, they'd be checking and posting.
     
  15. DAH

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    [QUOTE="anon55,
    there's value in privacy and I don't want the government or private corporations sniffing in my business. :2cents:[/QUOTE]

    I understand your concern, Anon, but society has an obligation to protect the innocent. If this were not a constant problem, then maybe we could decide we don't really need it.

    Not long ago, I was watching an interview of an old classmate. He was talking about how he became gay. He said when he was in the 7th grade, a teacher at his school did what he did to him. I was shocked to hear him say that, because he and I were at the same school at the same time. I racked my brain trying to figure out WHICH TEACHER HAD DONE THIS! And even if the student had reported it, it would have been the teacher's word against the student's.

    We don't live in a utopia; the reality is, I cannot afford to trust you, with all due respect, and you should not trust me at face value. We can't afford to do this anymore. Society has PROVEN that it cannot be trusted, and that distrust extends right into the classroom--and THE CHURCH!
    I want the teacher over my children ON CAM!

    And if you are MORE CONCERNED about your PERSONAL PRIVACY than the protection of the innocent, then, ah..stay at home. :roll:
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
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  16. tchr4vr

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    Aug 1, 2017

    At my old school, we had cameras--they were installed as a way to record our lessons for posting on the internet for absent students, homebound, etc. I had such a bad class that year that I would leave the camera on when I was out so I could see what went on. Cameras will only work if your admin backs you up. On camera, I had the same student cheat on a test, do a striptease, and call another student a "white ******", all on the same day. The incidents had already been reported by my sub and this student had been written up repeatedly for foul language and vandalism. The response from administration--"The kid is a basketball player. If we suspend him, he can't play, and that will cause him to lose all incentive, and then he'll become more of a problem." I still kept recording, just so in the end, if anything tried to be pulled against me, I had evidence. Luckily, it wasn't necessary. I wouldn't mind cameras in my classroom, as long as I have the ability to turn them off--say on my planning period if I'm making a personal call on my cell phone, or something like that.
     
  17. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Personal privacy is not some trivial thing. If we start giving away all our rights because some people choose to be fearful all the time, we will have no rights left.

    There simply cannot be cameras everywhere at all times. Bathroom stalls? Locker room? That wedge of wall space underneath the camera that pans left and right down the hallway? When we live in a society and interact with other people, there must be some degree of trust. When I drive on the road, I trust that the other cars are going to stop at the red light so that it's safe for me to proceed on green. When I send my kids to school, I trust that their teachers and the other adults around them have their best interest at heart and will be good enough at their jobs to ensure that they are appropriately supervised at all times. Terrible things sometimes happen, but that's true of anything, anywhere, anytime.

    I'll add that even if there were cameras everywhere, it would be next to impossible to prevent 100% of all bad things from occurring. We would be better equipped to prosecute, of course, but unless we are watching every single one those cameras at the same time and in real time and can respond instantaneously when we see something, we won't be able to stop everything from happening. Someone in my town recently had his house broken into while he was away on vacation. He had his house set up with cameras in common rooms and at several points along the exterior. He got many excellent pictures of the person who broke into his house, but he had no way of preventing the theft. The alarm company took about 10 minutes to respond, but the burglar was long gone by that point.
     
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  18. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    That sounds like a Teaching Performance Assessment, or TPA. The TPA video typically shows a single lesson, or at most snippets from a unit of lessons, and what's getting graded is not so much the video but the aspiring teacher's reflection on what went well in the teaching and what the teacher needs to improve. I'm not sure how we get from this to "Cameras are not far off for everyone."
     
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  19. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Slippery slope. There will absolutely be a day when classrooms are equipped with cameras. It's just part of societal progress. Cameras on street poles, then to police dash cam, then to body cam.

    There are already classrooms equipped with cameras. They could spread to classrooms in many different ways. As a teacher growth tool negotiated with a union, as a requirement or discount program via a district insurance company, as a result of a tragedy etc. Just because we don't like something doesn't mean it won't happen.

    That's all I was saying. It's inevitable.
     
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  20. DAH

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    [QUOTE="tchr4vr, i I wouldn't mind cameras in my classroom, as long as I have the ability to turn them off--.[/QUOTE]

    Tchr4vr------Leave it on, ESPECIALLY because you are in the room alone!
    That's when the worst things can take place--WHEN THERE'S NO ONE ELSE TO VOUCH FOR WHAT YOU DID or didn't do.
    Leave it on!
     
  21. DAH

    DAH Companion

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    [QUOTE="AlwaysAttend,... It's just part of societal progress. [/QUOTE]


    I would rather call it, "societal DECLINE."
     
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  22. DAH

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    Caesar, if nothing more, it serves as a PROTECTION for the victim, a DEFENSE for the accused, PROOF for the prosecutor, and a DETERRENT for the offender...I think it's worth it.
     
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  23. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    What I'm suggesting is that the idea of cameras serving as "protection" is where this falls short. Cameras won't stop anything from happening unless you have the resources and personnel to immediately respond to every suspicious event. That's not feasible.
     
  24. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    I think it depends on what the protection is. This started by the issue being falsely accused of something. In that case, it does not stop someone from falsely accusing you (it may deter so in a way it may protect), but it certainly does protect you from the potential ramifications of the accusations in a he said/she said circumstance.

    Will it stop every instance of crime? Well no. Cameras don't do that anywhere. However, it does deter some which is a form of protection from someone who would otherwise commit the offense if they knew they were not being recorded.
     
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  25. DAH

    DAH Companion

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    [QUOTE="a2z, This However, it does deter some which is a form of protection from someone who would otherwise commit the offense if they knew they were not being recorded.[/QUOTE]


    Amen.
     
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  26. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    Yes, of course if I inappropriate touch a kid, or threw something at them, then yes, they would be used. What the teacher telling me was talking about were things like I can't get in trouble because they saw that during the whole class I was sitting behind my desk, doing things on the computer and not walking around, etc.
     
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  27. MathGuy82

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    The problem is, is when incompetent administrators believe children/teenagers and take their words as a real truth without any factual evidence. Yes, some events are true and there are some bad apples out there, but I am sick and tired of hearing stories where someone can call a tip line anonymously and the teacher is under investigation with leave. I've never had this happen to me or anyone in my school. However, let's make sure it never happens to anyone. I've seen stories on the news since I was a kid on how certain teachers were falsely accused. Of course, they have to go on leave in the process, it's more like proven guilty until innocent. Bring on the cameras. If we don't have anything to hide, why not have them? Why are there cameras and recordings nearly everywhere you shop?? Should we not choose to shop at a place that has cameras because we aren't trusted? Should we decide not to go to restaurant/bar on the boulevard because there are cameras in there? No, it because of the few bad apples that take profit/commit crime acts from the business and so now everyone has to be watched. Nearly every department store/government office today has cameras unless it's the bathroom or a changing/try on clothes area. Police stations, drivers license offices, and banks are all have recordings in the main areas. Not the best of circumstances, but at least there is proof. Since I worked at a grocery store in my teens and early 20's, I saw lots of theft. Several shoppers would try to walk out with beer and other items without paying, as well as a few employees I worked with. Guess what, they replayed the cameras to each person caught and there was PROOF. No one was sitting there watching every move, but there was always a record. There was no guessing, or no word against another or who could lie the best, there was proof by recording.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  28. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    While I'm all for the concept of innocent until proven guilty for all, I can say that I am not for allowing teachers to remain in the classroom based on certain accusations. Maybe it is because there were predators in a few of our local schools over the last decade.

    I also think kids should be innocent until proven guilty also. That is the standard of our country even though none of it really works that way. Way too many kids were punished in the past for things that were not their fault or had extenuating circumstances that could not be controlled.

    Teachers just don't like being in the same position that students have been in for a hundred years.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
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  29. TeacherNY

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    Yeah, because the administrators are scared of parents complaining and they don't want to have to deal with them. Of course the parents are going to believe the student, therefore if the administrator is a wimp, he/she has to go along with it to keep the whining parent quiet. I'm sure this isn't the case ALL the time but it's obvious that it does happen.
     
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  30. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    Agreed. I'm sorry, but I think most agree that children are to be treated with the utmost caution. That's why there is paid leave in most cases. Teachers do have a recourse with unfounded allegations (even if it's not a good one), a lawsuit. Financially holding the family and school district accountable for frivolous claims is available as a recourse, even if it cannot restore your reputation. There are enough bad apples that this even has to be a discussion.
     
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  31. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Several posts have been moderated: one post that went off topic and two posts that quoted it.

    Members are reminded that the proper way to flag a post is to use the "Report" link at the bottom of the offending post. Reporting brings the post to the moderators' attention faster; replying, and quoting in reply, just fans flames and makes more work for the moderators.
     
  32. a2z

    a2z Maven

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    TeacherGroupie,
    What is your suggestion when people are saying multiple things if not to quote the one you are discussing. Without quoting, I can't see discussions working well at all. I do understand that when something becomes reportable it is extra work for moderators to clean up, but how can people have a discussion that makes sense without either addressing the person they are responding to or quoting the part of a post they are discussing?
     
  33. catnfiddle

    catnfiddle Moderator

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    The problem is that the original reported post was quoted by two other forum members, mostly in complaint. TG had to moderate all three instead of just one.
     
  34. AlwaysAttend

    AlwaysAttend Fanatic

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    AllI know is I wrote a very nuanced reply that will never be seen haha.
     
  35. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    Here's what I mean:

    1. Sometimes a member's post is in and of itself not problematic, but in the absence of the problematic post that triggered it, it no longer makes sense. In that case, moderators will unapprove or delete the post.

    2. When a post is problematic enough to be unapproved or deleted, a member's subsequent post that quotes it is also unapproved or deleted; this is longstanding A to Z practice, in the interest of ensuring that the problematic content is no longer visible even in quotation.

    3. The person whose post is moderated is welcome to repost with modification: a problematic quote can be excised or paraphrased, or one's own paragraph that got the fireworks going can be made less incendiary or eliminated and the rest reposted. (That would have been a fine solution at least once in this case.)

    4. Replying to a problematic post simply to point out that It Oughta Be Moderated is not useful. Again, that's what the "Report" link is for. See also http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/index.php?threads/inappropriate-post-report-dont-respond.198718/.

    5. Let me emphasize that the member whose post is deleted or unapproved under points 1 and 2 is generally not in trouble with the moderators: we're simply doing the housekeeping, as we do when we delete duplicate posts on request. The member whose post is deleted or unapproved under point 4, however, is skating on thin ice, and the ice gets thinner with repetition.
     
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  36. TeacherGroupie

    TeacherGroupie Moderator

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    You're more than welcome, anon55.
     
  37. Linguist92021

    Linguist92021 Phenom

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    In our back to school packets we also got a form that describes what cameras do and dont' do. It spells out that cameras cannot be used for teacher evaluation or for discipline regarding teaching or classroom management.
    Definitely a good way to use it.
    Of course I'll be signing again this year opting for the cameras in my classroom.
     
  38. DAH

    DAH Companion

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    [QUOTE="Linguist92021, I'll be signing again this year opting for the cameras in my classroom.[/QUOTE]

    Good luck, Linguist.
    I don't know why administration would fight against progress. Sooner or later, cams WILL BE in every classroom and church, just as they are in every bank and grocery store. They may as well get a head start; parents ought to INSIST upon it.
     
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  39. MathGuy82

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    I think though, that principals should say when they are evaluating if they are using the camera. I don't think anyone should be hired to just "watch" all the time unless it's a really tough school. Unless the contract says for students and teachers, "area under camera's". Then, principals could give feedback when needed. The point is, is that we shouldn't have to have cameras. However, the way things are now days, and with cameras pretty much everywhere you walk in, it's necessary and it gives us a sense of security and justice. I know that these types of students are very rare that may try to falsely accuse a teacher, but at least we have PROOF.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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