6/16/13 Wall Street Journal: Glimpse of New Teacher Ratings is Offered

Discussion in 'General Education' started by teacherman1, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. teacherman1

    teacherman1 Devotee

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    From the article:
    "The new system, which will take effect this fall, ranks teachers in four categories: ineffective, developing, effective and highly effective. The scores will generally be based 20% on state tests, 20% on school-based tests and 60% on classroom visits by administrators.

    Teachers who are rated ineffective on the two test-score portions will flunk the evaluation, no matter how well they do during their classroom observations. Principals and the Department of Education will have some discretion in deciding whom to start termination proceedings against."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324520904578549782294863350.html
     
  2.  
  3. tracykaliski

    tracykaliski Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2008
    Messages:
    1,927
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 17, 2013

    Scary....if your children flunk the state tests and the school based tests, you automatically fail. Horrible.

    I wonder what percentage will have to fail. In any case, it makes me comfortable knowing that I teach in a private school where we actually don't do any kind of testing at all. To me, it's all about trust, and if we trust the teachers to teach the children effectively, then we wouldn't have to rely on these stupid tests to "monitor children's progress".
     
  4. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes Received:
    255

    Jun 17, 2013

    If I am ever in a position where my students cannot pass a test that I am told is necessary for them to pass then I deserve to be fired.

    If you look at the stats it says only 6% of teachers would have been placed into this "auto fail" category. If you think only 6% of teachers are doing a poor job I don't know what to say.
     
  5. 2ndTimeAround

    2ndTimeAround Phenom

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4,330
    Likes Received:
    564

    Jun 17, 2013

    I will always have a handful of students that don't pass standardized tests. I don't think that means I deserve to be fired.
     
  6. MissD59

    MissD59 Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    While normally I would agree with you, as a NYer, I can tell you that tests changed drastically this past April. The tests were developmentally inappropriate; the 3rd grade ELA included passages that were at a 7th grade reading leaving and included challenging vocabulary. One poem contained the word "arrant" and was written entirely in British syntax.

    That data isn't from this year's tests.
     
  7. chebrutta

    chebrutta Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    Hmm. I guess FL is doing something right. For the student test portion of our evaluation, student growth is what the students did this year compared to what the student did last year. So if Johnny was a Level 1 on his FCAT last year with a developmental score of 200 and a Level 1 again this year with a developmental score of 212... He still failed the FCAT but made learning gains, and that counts positively for my eval.

    I have students who come to me on a third grade reading level. It's rather difficult to make four years worth of learning gains when you only see the child for 90 minutes every other day.
     
  8. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    To me its just the opposite.I would rather my skill set be evaluated by how well students are learning to think and the content.

    60% based on someone else's opinion. That to me is truly scary.
     
  9. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,858
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    That's the way we do it too. 50% of our eval is student test scores on standardized testing or benchmark tests if the teachers don't teach tested grades (ie PE or PreK).
     
  10. FourSquare

    FourSquare Fanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,836
    Likes Received:
    314

    Jun 17, 2013

    It shouldn't be based on pass/fail. It should be growth.

    In that sense, I feel like kev. If most of my students aren't GROWING, then I should be fired.
     
  11. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Jun 17, 2013

    I hope you never teach a class with an assortment of children ranging from several grade levels below, English language learners who can't speak the language, and children with IQ's that place them severely below normal (along with some children at or above grade level). All of these children are expected to pass the "test". This was my class of 32 children this past year.
     
  12. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 17, 2013

    What if you are a special education teacher and your students have IEPs that specifically say they are required to meet less of the standards, yet you are penalized because they don't pass the standardized tests. Then you deserve to be fired?
     
  13. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 17, 2013

    Yeah it would be nice if the tests actually tested how they are learning to "think." The test part is what scares me as someone who actually teaches in NY. The schools can be strategic about what students go to which teachers. They want you out- they'll put the low performers in your class.
     
  14. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 17, 2013

    That's a good point. I think the "local" assessments are going to be based on growth but I could be wrong.
     
  15. KinderCowgirl

    KinderCowgirl Phenom

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,858
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    It works the other way with GT kids too. Sometimes they score so high on a test the following year it's hard to measure growth because the tests don't go that high. It looks like they are flatlining, but the test just can't measure their skill growth.
     
  16. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Jun 17, 2013

    Agreed.
     
  17. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    Tests many times do test how students are thinking. Common core appears to be going more in this direction than simple multiple guess tests. So this should be an improvement.

    I would 100% rather be evaluated on results from local and state tests than observations in your district. If your schools are willing to stack classes to make teachers pass or fail, under this new scale they want you out...your simply out on the observation. I would rather have control in my hands to move them academically.
     
  18. Rockguykev

    Rockguykev Connoisseur

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,931
    Likes Received:
    255

    Jun 17, 2013

    In that case you are being told quite explicitly what that student is supposed to achieve. You know that if as a special ed teacher your students do not meet their IEP goals you are going to get hammered.

    As far as the "I hope someday you blah blah" comment goes, I've taught EL1-2s, both in the regular classroom and as an individual class. Additionally, I get a huge majority of the special ed kids at my site. In both cases those kids have specific goals (in the case of the ELs, state-defined ones). Yes, I should be held accountable for getting even those kids to reach those goals.
     
  19. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Jun 17, 2013

    But what about the state test? Do you believe *all* students should be able to pass the state test?
     
  20. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Jun 17, 2013

    In my state, the goals set for students who are way below grade level have absolutely nothing to do with state tests and nothing to do with my evaluation. In order to show success, these students will be evaluated on the scores they receive on the tests at their grade level, not ability level, and my evaluation is based solely upon those scores.

    For example, one year I had a 5th grader who had finally become toilet trained and had learned how to tie his shoes. He was functioning academically as a three year old. He had to take the 5th grade exam and my evaluation reflected his failure on that test.
     
  21. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    Do you believe teachers are going to be classified as failures based on 1 student out of 30 not passing?
     
  22. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Jun 17, 2013

    In a full inclusion class, more than 1/3 of our students will be significantly below grade level...three years or more. They will make wonderful growth during the course of a year...but not three or more grades.

    So, we are not talking about 1 child in 30...we are talking about 1/3 of the class. THAT will significantly affect the teacher evaluation.
     
  23. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    What do you mean by wonderful growth? This is a fluffy blurry description.

    I assume you mean less than 1 years growth.
     
  24. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Jun 17, 2013

    One student? Who has just one special needs student incapable of mastering the state exam? How does this impact special needs teachers?
     
  25. swansong1

    swansong1 Virtuoso

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,481
    Likes Received:
    1,381

    Jun 17, 2013

    I'll tell you what I mean by wonderful growth. I'm talking about a 10 year old child who comes into the class with no knowledge of letter sounds and who leaves at the end of the year reading on a 2nd grade level. I'm talking about the 4th grader who begins the year with the academic skills of a 4 year old and leaves able to add and subtract multi digit numbers. I'm talking about a 5th grader who had never been to school before who is able to learn how to read on a 3rd grade level...

    I'm trying to get you to understand that none of that matters in states where the only indicator of student success is the almighty "test".

    This is why teachers are leaving the ranks of SPED and Gifted and moving to general ed classes where they can have a reasonable assumption that most of their kids will pass.

    I realize I will never change your mindset so I will step off my soapbox now and leave this discussion.
     
  26. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013



    If you are making this kind of growth with your students, the teachers that had these students before you are the ones shaking in their boots, not you.
     
  27. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    You missed the point. You are not going to be rated a failing teacher based on several students out of 30 not passing.
     
  28. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,738
    Likes Received:
    1,655

    Jun 17, 2013

    What was the trigger that change the ability of the students to all of a sudden be able to grow in leaps and bounds in 1 year when they weren't able to do so for years before? What skill was mastered prior to these things happening which made this instruction stick all of a sudden?

    If there was nothing special done prior and it was all because of the instruction provided in your class that wasn't provided in the same way before, it points to a problem with earlier instruction or lack of other skills provided at the same time this progress was made. If that is the case then this does matter even in states with standardized testing because if the weak spot is found and eliminated and replaced with something that works better, these kids will eventually be passing that state test or at least getting mighty close.
     
  29. czacza

    czacza Multitudinous

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2001
    Messages:
    24,950
    Likes Received:
    2,104

    Jun 17, 2013

    It's not about teachers with kids who fail a test...it's about teachers with kids who don't show growth. Kids SHOULD show growth over a years time...sure there will be a few who don't, but don't you think on average most kids will demonstrate growth?
     
  30. marc92647

    marc92647 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 17, 2013

    Well said.
     
  31. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Jun 17, 2013

    I don't work under this system so obviously I don't understand it fully. While I don't think a teacher would be rated as a failure, I imagine three or four out of twenty-two students failing would prevent a teacher from achieving a very high rating. But again, I am not at all familiar with the specifics.
     
  32. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,946
    Likes Received:
    3

    Jun 17, 2013

    Yes, I do think most but not all should and will show growth.
     
  33. Aussiegirl

    Aussiegirl Habitué

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    8

    Jun 17, 2013

    This is how we do it in my district in VA. It is more realistic.
     
  34. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,738
    Likes Received:
    1,655

    Jun 18, 2013

    I'm trying to understand how FL evaluates FCAT scores. What I am taking away from this post is that Grade 3 Level 1 200 scores to Grade 4 Level 1 212 score shows slightly over 1 year's growth which is why it would count positively for growth.

    If I am accurate in my assessment of the reading of the scores, what happens when there is less than a year's growth and the student got a Grade 4 Level 1 180. Not knowing FL's scale, is that even possible? How is lack of growth shown for students that score at the complete bottom of the testing scale on multiple years?
     
  35. chebrutta

    chebrutta Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 18, 2013

    http://fcat.fldoe.org/fcat2/pdf/achlevel.pdf

    I do not like this new scale. In the past, we used a different scale, and it was much easier to target a student's grade level reading ability, because they could score as low as third grade. With this new scale, it's a bit harder to determine the grade level ability - there is a student who completely bottomed out last year and this year, but shows growth because the lowest point for seventh grade is four points higher than the lowest point for sixth grade.

    So I guess my answer is that a student can bottom out every year, show some growth, and may not actually be making any true gains at all.
     
  36. a2z

    a2z Maven

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,738
    Likes Received:
    1,655

    Jun 18, 2013

    Thanks, chebrutta!
     
  37. MissD59

    MissD59 Comrade

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jun 18, 2013

    Not when they ask 9 year olds to answer questions about a poem written entirely in British Syntax on an ELA exam one year. One of my favorite questions this year asks the kids to define a word in line such and such; but the correct answer was a definition that is used much more frequently in British English. The American English definition was also included as a choice. I'm not so certain that question is a valid assessment of a student's reading comprehension.

    Praying that passage/questions were field questions. The passage itself was far beyond a third grade level.

    But yes, czacza, overall most kids will demonstrate growth...as long as the assessments are valid and developmentally appropriate.

    The NYS ELA and Math assessments this year had gened kids crying in the classroom...literally in tears because they didn't have time to finish on some days.

    For an example of how the math test was this year...enjoy:
    http://ccssimath.blogspot.com/2013/04/good-luck-new-yorks-children.html

    And let's not forget last year's infamous Pineapple and the Hare question?

    I suppose my issue might be with Pearson more than anything at this point; not with the actual teacher rating system.
     
  38. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 18, 2013

    But it's how they score on a test- not how you "move them." Some kids can move leaps and bounds and still fail the test. And we took new common core tests this year- they were in no way shape or form an improvement. Math was fine, just harder compared to previous years to make up for the new common core standards. ELA was downright unfair.
     
  39. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 18, 2013

    Except you totally missed the point. They're not holding the teacher accountable for the students reaching their IEP goals or promotion criteria. They don't care about that. They're holding the teacher accountable for those students passing the test just as any other student. And the words "I hope someday you" weren't in my response at all so please don't put words in my mouth.
     
  40. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 18, 2013

    Excellent point.
     
  41. iteachbx

    iteachbx Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    1

    Jun 18, 2013

    Excellent point. But when you look at it carefully they haven't developed the majority (or any to my knowledge) of the assessments they're going to use to measure growth in the lower grades- yet they expect to use this next year. And in the upper grades they're measuring growth based on the previous years state test scores. That's not completely fair either because you're comparing how a student did on 3rd grade standards to how they're doing in your class on 4th grade standards.
     

Share This Page

Members Online Now

  1. Ima Teacher,
  2. bella84,
  3. Backroads,
  4. nstructor,
  5. catnfiddle,
  6. FourSquare
Total: 317 (members: 9, guests: 288, robots: 20)
test