Tebow

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by JustMe, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. 3Sons

    3Sons Connoisseur

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    Sep 19, 2011

    So as evidence for Love Won Out's intentions, you're using their mission statement? I find that a tad naive, Cerek. It's a political statement and they clearly don't want to be criticized as bigoted, which if they stated they want to convert everyone they surely would. Given their origination from FotF and the statements of its principals, I have to view setting up a separate organization that just expresses "nice" conversion therapy is essentially sockpuppetry.

    I also don't think Love Won Out turns away minors, and may actively court parents -- so saying it's "designed to help" consenting adults is really just turning a blind eye to anyone else.
     
  2. Major

    Major Connoisseur

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    Sep 19, 2011

    Just wanted to say I admire and respect Tim Tebow ........ He's the real deal. Tebow may not become a great NFL QB ..... or even be a starter for that matter ........ but I would love to have him as a neighbor and friend.......... And that's from a former Texas Longhorn (who didn't win the Heisman Trophy, but did have free tuition, room and board........:p:p)
     
  3. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Sep 20, 2011

    I specifically said I realize some of their clients are minors and it might be the parents that feel those desires are "unwanted". I have no doubt that happens, although it's difficult to say how often the minor may agree or disagree with the parent's views.

    I'm sure some minors are taken to Love Won Out and other such services against their will. These are the situations we see dramatized on TV. I'm also sure there are some minors that don't feel comfortable with those desires and want to find a way to overcome them. Those situations you will never see dramatized on TV.

    I personally question the effectiveness of the counseling because I think each individual will determine for themselves whether these desires are something they want to pursue or not. I deliberately listed two cases in which the decision made represented both sides of the issue and both of these women are very happy in their current relationships.

    Research suggests genetics plays a strong role in these desires and decisions, but as I said before, there are a plethora of social factors that also influence our development and how we view ourselves and I don't think the impact of those factors can be discounted. In the end, I feel it is up to each individual to decide what is "right" for them.
     
  4. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Sep 20, 2011

    Getting back to Tebow, I admire him for having the courage to express his beliefs openly and the conviction to stand by them even though others criticize him.

    Jesus told his disciples the world would hate them, because they did not conform to the world. The same holds true today. Open expression of beliefs is not the same as "forcing" your beliefs on someone else, but our country (especially) seems to lean more and more in that direction. So it isn't surprising at all that some people do not like Tebow being so open about his beliefs and his faith.
     
  5. Irishdave

    Irishdave Enthusiast

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    Sep 20, 2011

    Well said
     
  6. mrachelle87

    mrachelle87 Fanatic

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    Sep 20, 2011

    :angel:
     
  7. knitter63

    knitter63 Groupie

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    Sep 20, 2011

    Wow, how did this go from Tebow to gay hate groups???
    I like Tebow. I think he is an individual who is firm in his beliefs.
    I am not on this Earth to judge. I am a Christian, but as far as judging who is right or wrong, who is hateful and who is not, I will leave that to God. I have enough of my own worries on Earth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (like getting my papers graded....)
     
  8. 3Sons

    3Sons Connoisseur

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    Sep 21, 2011

    Tebow has prayed after scoring and requested a group of NFL players to pray before the Wonderlic exam.

    Thoughts?

    And a related question: Is a comparison to Ned Flanders appropriate?
     
  9. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Sep 21, 2011

    The difference between the Pharisees and Tebow is that the Pharisees were not honest or sincere in their faith. They were hypocrites who put on the appearance of being devoutly religious in public so they could be seen and admired by the general public.

    Tebow, on the other hand, appears to be completely genuine in his faith as evidenced by his actions matching his words. He doesn't just spout the words (as the Pharisees did), he actually lives by them and follows them in his daily life. This is what ALL Christians are supposed to do.

    As for requesting the prayer before the Wonderlic exam, I think that is another example of him being brave enough to practice his faith openly. Yes, he did ask the other players to bow their head in prayer and he did meet some resistance to that request. So nobody was "forced" to practice his religion and, in fact, were free to express their own opinion about his beliefs. I'm sure Tebow expected some resistance to his request and knew it might be un-popular, but had enough strength in his convictions to make the request anyway.

    As Christians, we are called to live our faith daily and - yes - openly. That still does not equate to "forcing" our beliefs on others. Even in the Wonderlic example, the other players were free to NOT go along with Tebow's request.

    I've never watched The Simpsons, so I can't make any comparison to the Ned Flanders character.
     
  10. nikkiluvsu15

    nikkiluvsu15 Rookie

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    Sep 22, 2011

    I'm an extreme Florida fan (GO GATORS :D) and I absolutely love Tebow.

    I'm also a Christian and I think he is such a great role model. I think there is a difference in disliking him because he beat your team and outright hating him.
     
  11. Joyful!

    Joyful! Habitué

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    Sep 22, 2011

    I'm not sure how the Wonderlic thing relates to the verse? Public prayer is not being decried in those verses. Praying as a way to be seen and express your "outward spirituality" while your inner heart is wrong is the topic of those verses. So, because Tebow wants to pray aloud, he is a hypocrite? :dizzy: I find the logic confusing.

    The Ned Flanders thing I'm unclear about as well. I briefly read your link, having not watched the Simpsons, and it seems to be this uber generalization of the author's view of a Christian. So, I'm not sure of your point.

    I try not to judge the spiritual condition of other people. I have not the right, nor the perspective to evaluate the spiritual sincerity of Tim Tebow or anyone else, including those here. I can only watch my own heart and work on my own spiritual condition. Tim Tebow seems sincere to me. Even if he doesn't seem sincere, that isn't my business. What I do think is that he is a remarkable young man who is living a clean cut life without drugs and gangs. I'm fairly confident that he is a better example to young kids than those in the NFL who have been imprisoned for a variety of reasons.
     
  12. 3Sons

    3Sons Connoisseur

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    Sep 23, 2011

    Some Christians do see the plain meaning of the text as decrying public prayer, regardless of intent. I find it a bit hard to argue that the interpretation isn't possible, given that it explicitly states to go inside and close the door and pray "in secret". I understand you're interpreting it differently, but are you interpreting it that way because that's the way you interpret it, or is it because you've grown up praying publically?

    As for the Wonderlic thing, you really don't see how suggesting to people that they pray and hence becoming the "leader" of the prayer could be self-aggrandizing?

    Hmm. How do you feel about door-to-door salesmen or telemarketers?

    This isn't about whether Tebow is sincere or is behaving as a good person. It's about why people don't like him, and why they don't like him has to have something to do with perception. I don't know him personally, nor do I think any of us do, so we can only go by the perceptions that are available to us.

    I brought up Ned Flanders because he's often portrayed as an annoying character on the Simpsons, though by any objective measure he's a very good person who helps people and is forgiving and hardworking -- everything Homer Simpson isn't. Looking at a description of the Simpsons, it portrays how much better a Christian family is than an irreligious family. But that's never the perception anyone has on actually watching it. I find that very interesting.
     
  13. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Sep 23, 2011

    It's interpreted that way because of the context of the passage. JustMe gave a very good explanation of that. It wasn't just the fact they prayed in public that Jesus admonished, it was WHY they were praying in public combined with the fact that their inner heart and hidden actions were going against the Scripture and Holy Law.

    We all know people that dress up nice and go to church on Sunday, just to be seen going to church, while living a completely immoral life during the week. That is the type of hypocrisy Jesus is addressing, except in this case, he is stating that the religious leaders of the time are the ones that are being hypocritical because, if ANYBODY should be sincere in their faith and dedication, it should be the leaders of the church.

    I guess a good modern day equivalent would be many of the televangelists that act so pious on their shows and then hire hookers after the cameras are off.

    Jim Bakker is one of the best examples of someone "having their reward here on Earth" and is one of the few that actually went to jail for his crimes. I saw an interview with him a few years after he got out of prison and I have to admit I was impressed with his honesty and humility. We probably all remember the scene of him curled up in a ball and crying as the police try to put him in their car. In the post-jail interview, he said he realized just how far OUT of God's Will he had become with his "ministry" and said it required God taking everything away from him before he realized just how wrong he had been all along. He freely admitted that, in looking back, he could see how wrong his actions were and also agreed he deserved to go to jail for what he had done.
    But, I digress. There is nothing wrong with saying a prayer in public, IF your heart and your faith are sincere. I've seen people saying Grace over a meal in public restaurants. The prayers are usually silent, but even when they aren't, they are said in a low voice. If those folks say Grace over every meal, then there is nothing wrong with doing it in public, but if they ONLY say Grace in public so they can be SEEN while doing it, then their actions are the type Jesus is admonishing against.

    I see how some people could interpret it that way, but I personally don't view it as such. Tebow has been very open, very honest and (by all appearances) very sincere in his faith. So, no, asking others to join him in a quick, public prayer is not self-aggrandizing in my view. It is an attempt to share his faith with others, which the Bible directs Christians to do.

    The part about Tebow's public prayer is about whether he is sincere in his faith or not, because that sincerity (or the lack thereof) makes a big difference in how Jesus' admonishment could be applied to his actions.

    As for why people don't like him (similar to salesman or telemarketers), Yes, I understand that perfectly. There are many people (including some members here) who think any open expression of faith is "forcing others beliefs" on them if they happen to be within earshot or eyesight of the prayer being offered or the testimony being given. I also understand many people view Christians in general as hypocritical, judgmental and "pushy" because of past experiences or perceptions based (generally) on a few personal examples.

    As I quoted before, Jesus told His disciples the world hated Him, so it was only natural the world would hate His followers as well, because they spoke out against the world rather than conforming to it. So, no, it isn't surprising that a lot of people lump Christians into the same general category as telemarketers or door-to-door salesman.

    But just as our perceptions of those folks can be wrong, so too, can the public's perception of Christians and Christianity.
     
  14. scienceteach82

    scienceteach82 Cohort

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    Sep 23, 2011

    I dislike him. Dont give a flip what he believes. He went to Florida. -gag-

    ;)
     
  15. Joyful!

    Joyful! Habitué

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    Sep 23, 2011

    The reason I have that interpretation is based upon study of the Bible, customs and context. I recognize other people may view it differently. That is their privilege.

    I did not grow up praying publicly.

    The Wonderlic thing is what it is, in my view. I see it as someone who wanted to pray, asked others to join and was rebuffed. I'm not sure how doing something like that would give him a leadership position, especially given the fact that the NFL is not overly known as a hotbed of spiritual living as is evidenced by many news stories. So, once again, I see it differently. But, I see your point. You seem to be saying that he used his spiritual view to try to promote himself as a leader. For me that is a huge stretch, but to each their own.

    As to the Simpsons, I can not rightly answer as my only exposure to them is a ride at Universal and the link you just posted.

    I am not a Tebow fan in the football sense, but I am a fan of anyone who tries to set a moral example for kids to follow. The fact that he has a spiritual view is not relevant to me in this context. As the OP suggested originally, it does not seem right that a guy who basically seems nice generates such vehement negative reactions.

    I am a Floridian, full disclosure, but not a Gator person (sorry to those who are). Tebow achieved college football greatness and has done a lot of kind things for kids in his community. That puts him in the good guy column for me. The spiritual part of this conversation seems to mask the larger conversation. What makes Tebow repulsive? If he was less clean cut, would he have more appeal?
     
  16. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Sep 23, 2011

    To your last paragraph, if I'm being honest, I am a little bothered that athletes are sincerely disliked and hated because of their team affiliations. Again, sincerely...not the lighthearted stuff. Sure, there are some who create "personalities" for the public, but it seems plenty hate the actual person. Odd. I mean, if as a UK fan I don't hate Laettner, anyone should be able to look beyond the rivalry stuff. :p
     
  17. Joyful!

    Joyful! Habitué

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    Sep 24, 2011

    :thumb::thumb:
    I agree. That applies to sports, politics and religion for me. I can disagree with someone completely, but they are still part of my community and as such deserve kindness and respect. We can disagree on topics vehemently, but without a spirit of vehemence and malevolence to the actual person.
     
  18. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Sep 24, 2011

    You are the first UK fan I have heard of that did not hate Christian Laettner. Maybe its the Christian part that did it for you.:rolleyes:
     
  19. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Sep 24, 2011

    I'm not sure what you mean...
     
  20. stephenpe

    stephenpe Connoisseur

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    Sep 25, 2011

    I was being funny.. Lots of Christians posting here, assumed you might be one and that one could not hate another.
     

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