Spinoff: are people born good or bad?

Discussion in 'Teacher Time Out' started by TeacherShelly, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    Sep 30, 2013

    It's true... as I become stronger in my faith (a painfully slow process for me!), I read the Bible and see different layers emerge.

    Yes, there are times when I need to do a bit more research (e.g. read commentaries, different versions, study notes, etc.), but for me anything worth understanding is worth digging deeper.

    For example, right now I'm trudging through the "minor prophets", and at times I admit they are either boring to me, or have me wondering how they are related to my "here and now". But then I catch Messianic prophetic glimpses and I feel enlightened and grateful.
     
  2. Merki

    Merki Guest

    Oct 2, 2013

    I think that people cannot be completely good or bad. Every person balances between this two states. And sometimes he or she makes good choices in life and sometimes bad..
     
  3. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Oct 2, 2013

    I don't think that Catholics believe that baptism washes away original sin. I think baptism is a rite which welcomes the child (or adult) into the fold of the faithful. Original sin is with us because we are human. It is balanced by the ability to choose and make decisions. Just because one is born with original sin does not make a person bad. It means that there is always a risk of sinning in this life on earth, a risk which we can respond to with the help of God or without it. That is our choice. Are people born more or less able to live a sin-free life? I don't know about that, but, since we are human, our psychological state influences what we choose. The only person who can judge whether or not we have sinned is God.
     
  4. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Oct 2, 2013

    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    "The Baptism of infants

    1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

    1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52"

    In the Catholic tradition, baptism removes original sin, but not the sinful nature and fallen state of humanity caused by original sin. Being born with original sin does, according to Catholics, make a person "bad," in that they are sinners.
     
  5. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Oct 2, 2013

    I don't see where it says that the baptism removes original sin, just that it is necessary to be freed from darkness. That's not the same. I read it to mean that once you are welcomed into the family of God, you have recourse to that which reconciles you with God and prepares your way for heaven.
     
  6. MissCeliaB

    MissCeliaB Aficionado

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    Oct 2, 2013

  7. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Oct 2, 2013

    Baptism does wash away original sin. If a person hasn't been baptized, then that person can't get into heaven. That goes for babies, too. That's why Catholics baptize babies shortly after birth (or immediately after birth if the baby is very ill). Source: me and my Catholic upbringing.
     
  8. Upsadaisy

    Upsadaisy Moderator

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    Oct 2, 2013

    Thank you MissCelia and Caesar.
     
  9. JustMe

    JustMe Virtuoso

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    Oct 2, 2013

    I read it as washing away the original sin. I don't believe in the original sin, but that's how I read this.
     
  10. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    Oct 2, 2013

    Forgive me, but I haven't practiced Catholicism since I was nine years old:

    Does this imply that the Catholics believe the way to enter Heaven is ONLY to be baptized? Or must one also confess Jesus as the Son of God and his/her personal Savior?

    What has helped me with the concept of sin is that I consider it a transgression, or a "moving away" from God and His presence/values/ways. We all fall short, and in His eyes one sin (transgression) is no worse than another (i.e. gossip is equitable to murder which is equitable to a lie.
     
  11. Cerek

    Cerek Aficionado

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    Oct 2, 2013

    This is what the Baptist faith believes as well, but it's always intriguing to hear the perspectives and views of other denominations.

    As I mentioned before, Baptists believe baptism is symbolic. It is considered an important part of affirming one's acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior, as it represents being buried to your old life of sin and resurrected into a new life of repentance and forgiveness. But it is not essential for one to get into Heaven. Catholics believe it is essential.

    Baptists also believe "Once Saved, Always Saved". After you've accepted the Salvation through Jesus Christ, you can't "lose" it, unless you willingly turn away from God completely.

    Apostolic Pentacostal(sp?) churches, on the other hand, do not believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved". Rather, they believe that one must be Saved again and again. They also believe one must speak in tongues to be truly Saved, because the tongues represent a direct conversation with God and/or the Holy Spirit.

    I visited an Apostolic church a couple of times when I lived in Florida. I didn't believe exactly as they did, but I have to say their services were some of the most Spirit-filled services I ever attended.
     
  12. TeacherShelly

    TeacherShelly Aficionado

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    Oct 2, 2013

    It's an opinion of some that baptism is the only path to salvation.

    It's an opinion of others that accepting Jesus as your lord and savior is the only path to salvation.

    Everyone has an opinion, and no one really knows.
     
  13. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    Oct 2, 2013

    "Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof." - Khalil Gibran
     
  14. TeacherShelly

    TeacherShelly Aficionado

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    Oct 2, 2013

    I adore Khalil Gibran's writing - quoted him in my own wedding vows. "Knowledge of the heart" is a lyrical way of describing faith, which can't be proven, and that's why I say no one really knows.
     
  15. Caesar753

    Caesar753 Multitudinous

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    Oct 3, 2013

    Being baptized alone won't necessarily get you into heaven. Your soul has to be free from the stain of sin. For example, if you had committed a mortal sin and not repented, you wouldn't go to heaven even if you had been baptized.

    There are obviously other things that you need to do to get into heaven. Be a good person, don't hurt other people, confess your sins, believe in Jesus, etc.

    No matter what, though, you have to be baptized to get into heaven. Baptism is like the key that unlocks the door to heaven. If you're not baptized, you won't be getting in. This doesn't mean that you'll go to hell; you might end up in Purgatory or Limbo. (There are a couple of loopholes to the baptism rule, but they wouldn't apply to most people.)

    In summation:

    Everyone who gets into heaven has been baptized. Not everyone who gets baptized gets into heaven.

    (At least this is how I understand things.)
     
  16. Ted

    Ted Habitué

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    Oct 3, 2013

    Thank you for the clarification, Caesar; it's much appreciated. :)
     
  17. MissFroggy

    MissFroggy Aficionado

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    Oct 6, 2013

    I'm an atheist. I believe most of us are born good and shaped by our families and society. Experiences along the way may take a person in one direction or another.

    I do believe the exception is sociopathy which can't be cured and is basically something a small portion of the population is born with. But even sociopaths can take two directions in life based on nurturing and family situation. Some end up in prison and others end up on Wall Street or as politicians or business executives!!
     

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